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Archive 2009 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Conner999
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p.4 #1 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Canon is not likely to put any effort into fixing an issue for a small subset of folks who don't use the intended lenses...

If they wanted to kill use of alt glass, they would do it in a far more 'aggressive' fashion - this is another gotcha that, as usual, fell outside the envelope of Canon's so-called testing.

To be fair however, if it's not an issue with Canon glass, it's not an issue to Canon. If I were to stick with Canon, I'd shave the mirror - solves a LOT of hassles, opens the door to some spectacular WAs and is cheap to reverse ($300ish) at sale time.

Mar 20, 2009 at 01:26 PM

philber
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p.4 #2 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
[
What I don't like is that this might be just first Canon showing symptom, when used with non-Canon lenses. Will they in future disable completely the use without Canon lenses and half of the Sigma lenses stop working again etc.?

Samuli, I don't think that Canon are out to disable all non-Canon lenses. The major sellers are Tamron and Sigma, and they bought licenses from Canon for the EF mount, as did Zeiss for the ZE series. When you sell licenses, it means that you actually expect third-party business to do well enough. And you can't kill this business without breaking your contract.

Mar 22, 2009 at 01:47 AM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.4 #3 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

philber wrote:
Samuli, I don't think that Canon are out to disable all non-Canon lenses. The major sellers are Tamron and Sigma, and they bought licenses from Canon for the EF mount, as did Zeiss for the ZE series. When you sell licenses, it means that you actually expect third-party business to do well enough. And you can't kill this business without breaking your contract.

Where you found info that Canon sells licences? Earlier majority of people agreed in forums "Sigma reverse engineering, Tamron might be purchasing licence (then somebody comes and says that Canon doesn't licence to anybody)" kind of thinking. I have giving up dpreview and even Fred Miranda Canon forum, so I may not know the newest news. Please give link to thread/page where it is said that Canon is now licencing.

Back to topic, well actually not to topic which we exactly discussed here but Live View relevant: I found out that I have one stuck pixel (magenta = red and blue are stuck), but it displays only when shooting with Live View. It haven't been showing up when shooting in freezing temperatures outside with mirror-lock up instead live view, or then plain old fashioned with viewfinder (don't know normal temperature shooting, haven't shoot indoors much...). Also if shutter speed is so long that dark frame substraction is used it's naturally filtered out. I'll bring it to service tomorrow, luckily I bought extra "pro warranty" with the camera (whole lives in Finland may have heard about "Rajala Pro Turva"), and the contract says that I should get similar camera for the time which my camera spends at repair shop, let's see will they give me 1Ds mkIII since it's little difficult still to get 5DmkII in Finland ;-)

Mar 22, 2009 at 10:16 AM

philber
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p.4 #4 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli, I don't know that Canon have licensed Zeiss, but it "smells" like it. Zeiss' press release use all kinds of names which belong ot Canon, such as "EF", "EOS", etc... If Zeiss don't have a license, then they can't use these names without permission from Canon, who would certainly have no reason to co-operate, and every reason to sue. The wording used by Zeiss, indicating how their lens works with the EOS camera also suggests that they feel safe, which would not be the case with reverse engineering. Here is the Zeiss press release:
OBERKOCHEN/Germany, 15.09.2008.
Carl Zeiss is expanding its successful line of SLR lenses: ZE lenses with EF bayonet for all analog and digital EOS camera models. As with all EF lenses, the new ZE lenses from Carl Zeiss transfer all information exclusively via electronic contacts. This means that all exposure modes such as programmed auto exposure, shutter priority, aperture priority and manual setting are supported. The camera�s automatic focus confirmation also remains available to an unlimited extent with these manual focus lenses. With digital SLRs, the lens data and all exposure data can also be accessed via the camera�s EXIF file. Even E-TTL flash metering is supported. The first lenses to be available will be the Planar T* 1.4/50 ZE and the Planar T* 1.4/85 ZE in the last quarter of this year. Further focal lengths will be added to the line within the next few months.

Mar 22, 2009 at 04:44 PM

patrickphoto
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p.4 #5 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

I only "tested" the one body I own, but with it:

oly 21 f/4, 28 f2.8, 135 3.5, nikkor 16 fish, 24 f/2.0, 35 f/2.0, 50 f/1.2 1.4 and 1.8e, 55 f/1.2, 85 f/1.4, 135 f/2.8, 180 f/2.8, 200 f/4, 300 f/4, zeiss 50 1.4, leica 135 2.8, minolta 58 1.2, m42 adapter with pentax spotmatic screwmount lenses, and the oly 55 1.2, as well as all the usual ef lenses

have no problems of this kind.

i did bang the mirror on a few of them before remembering to check the lens clearance

Mar 22, 2009 at 04:54 PM

olyacme
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p.4 #6 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
What I don't like is that this might be just first Canon showing symptom, when used with non-Canon lenses. Will they in future disable completely the use without Canon lenses and half of the Sigma lenses stop working again etc.? If that is the direction, I will move to medium format for "art" photography and have one Canon/Nikon/whateverSLR just for family snapshots with one autofocus zoom (yuck!)...

I don't think this is likely. SLRs, by virtue of their flexible design, have a long history of being used in areas of photography outside of the common point-and-shoot community. Every major manufacturer has released adaptors for telescopes and microscopes and other "dumb" devices. To suddenly attempt to tie users to only house-brand conventional lenses, especially by simply ruining the occasional photo when an unsupported optic is used, would be too shameful and self defeating to be conceivable IMO.

OTOH, I find considerable credibility in the suggestion that, robbed of a "Go Ahead" signal from a chipped lens, some sort of timing issue is allowing one of the shutter curtains to get in the way of the exposure.

What sort of efforts have been undertaken to apprise Canon of the issue? It really sounds like a trivial firmware fix could solve the problem.

Mar 22, 2009 at 05:29 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.4 #7 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

patrickphoto wrote:
I only "tested" the one body I own, but with it:

oly 21 f/4, 28 f2.8, 135 3.5, nikkor 16 fish, 24 f/2.0, 35 f/2.0, 50 f/1.2 1.4 and 1.8e, 55 f/1.2, 85 f/1.4, 135 f/2.8, 180 f/2.8, 200 f/4, 300 f/4, zeiss 50 1.4, leica 135 2.8, minolta 58 1.2, m42 adapter with pentax spotmatic screwmount lenses, and the oly 55 1.2, as well as all the usual ef lenses

have no problems of this kind.

i did bang the mirror on a few of them before remembering to check the lens clearance

Patrick lenses are irrelevant this has nothing to do with lens, problem can be repeated by taping connections of Canon EF lens as well. Relevants things are:
- Live View used with Canon EOS 5DmkII (your profile doesn't mention 5DmkII)
- shutter speed (1/2500 or higher)
- do your adapters have chip or are they non-shipped (this problem does not concern Canon lenses)
While these things are not know, the test doesn't provide any useful information.

"philber" what you say kind of makes sense, I don't know much about licensing legally (can this kind of words be used without licence, EF="Electronic Focus" pretty generic, EOS="Electro-Optical system"). But I do know a lot of business, in which majority of the profit comes from aftermarket, and to me it seems Canon does everything "by the book", they support their products only limited time and try to be best provider on key components of system (for majority of people Canon lenses are considered good, in Alternative forum it may seem otherwise...), etc. etc. so I would be surprised that they would not try to limit other parties to take their profit. While limiting others to take profit, it can be done by minimizing effects to equipment not available from Canon (telescope for example) - this far they have done the limitation of other parties by playing around with the autofocus electronical communication --> many Sigma lenses have stopped working or need firmware update. This live view problem would not affect either telescope users neither microscope user - they would never use as high shutter speeds that they would be affected.

Originally I did throw this "Canon conspiracy theory against alternative lens users" as half joke, I may have to be more clear about my "half jokes" in future since it seems there are Canon fans hiding everywhere ;-)

Mar 22, 2009 at 06:25 PM

patrickphoto
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p.4 #8 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Patrick lenses are irrelevant this has nothing to do with lens, problem can be repeated by taping connections of Canon EF lens as well. Relevants things are:
- Live View used with Canon EOS 5DmkII (your profile doesn't mention 5DmkII)
- shutter speed (1/2500 or higher)
- do your adapters have chip or are they non-shipped (this problem does not concern Canon lenses)
While these things are not know, the test doesn't provide any useful information.

"philber" what you say kind of makes sense, I don't know much about licensing legally (can this kind of words be used without licence, EF="Electronic Focus" pretty generic,...Show more →

Samuli:

I use VERY cheap Taiwanese adapters, mount adapter only, no "shipped"

for my oly, om, zeiss, while I use a Fotodiox Pro Nikon-EoS adapter(Rudolph adapted) for my Nikkors. Generally speaking, I do about 35-50 % L.V. with alternative lenses, if not more, and shot one stop from, if not completely, wide open.

And RE: my camera, I haven't changed my profile for two years or more (as far as I am aware, although it could be a little less

but you have inspired me, it will be changed.

Mar 22, 2009 at 07:23 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.4 #9 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

patrickphoto wrote:
I use VERY cheap Taiwanese adapters, mount adapter only, no "shipped"

for my oly, om, zeiss, while I use a Fotodiox Pro Nikon-EoS adapter(Rudolph adapted) for my Nikkors. Generally speaking, I do about 35-50 % L.V. with alternative lenses, if not more, and shot one stop from, if not completely, wide open.

And the shutter speed in your test was 1/2500 or higher (preferrably above, it show very modest/not at all at 1/2500s, the sorter the shutter speed the more it shows)?

If answer is yes:
- this seems to be camera specific problem, the other cameras tested in this thread do have this vignetting and yours doesn't --> our theory regarding timing when no chip ain't true either, since that kind of software problem would be systematic
if answer is no:
- this test proofs that also your 5DmkII doesn't vignette without chipped adapter under 1/2500s...

Mar 23, 2009 at 01:43 AM

patrickphoto
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p.4 #10 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli,

My photos are not a "test", per se, but we will let that slide

Mar 23, 2009 at 10:37 AM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.4 #11 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

patrickphoto wrote:
My photos are not a "test", per se, but we will let that slide

Yes, the majority of them are in broad daylight with fast lenses, and thus, speeds over 2500 often.

And you left off the option that "if yes" then this test proves that also your 5dmII doesn't vignette WITH CHIPPED adapter OVER 1/2500.

Ok, so I read this so that your non-tests show that your 5DmkII doesn't vignette with your chipped adapters(=not interesting), your Canons(=not interesting) and your non-chipped adapters? In principle this means that your 5DmkII is only "tested" 5DmkII which works without vignetting at high speeds without electronical connection turning this to camera specific issue not model specific issue.

The only thing interesting is that is the problem systematic or not with non-chipped adapters, otherwise this issue is pretty much dealth with. Thanks for the test anyhow even the results are really hard interpret what happened and what didn't...

Personally at this point I do not care since my 5DmkII and all other tested 5DmkIIs do work with chipped adapters. All my adapters are chipped and will be in future, but there are people who want to pay $200 for Kindai etc. non-chipped high quality adapters.

Mar 23, 2009 at 11:45 AM

patrickphoto
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p.4 #12 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

as most languages have a translation: to each his/her own.

Mar 23, 2009 at 01:54 PM

cavewalker
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p.4 #13 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

just found the solution for the vignetting problem with liveview and manual lenses.
Goto Live View/Movie func. set./Silent shoot and set this to Disable

Jun 04, 2009 at 01:37 PM

bobbytan
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p.4 #14 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Okay, I am going to add an interesting twist to this phenomenon. I had exactly the same problem with the FL 55/1.2 lens earlier. There is a darkening on the bottom 1/4 of the frame - no matter how I orientate the camera. And this was with normal shooting i.e. not in LV mode. No matter what I did, it won't go away. And then, when I tried it another time, presto, it's gone .... and no matter what I do, I cannot bring it back - it's just gone! Well, I hope it doesn't come back!

BTW, this has not happened to any of my other alt lenses - not even once. So why the FL 55/1.2 .... and why did it just go away? And the more worrisome question is .... will it ever come back?

Jun 04, 2009 at 02:03 PM

bobbytan
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p.4 #15 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

What? Why? Any explanation or reasoning behind this, Ralph?

cavewalker wrote:
just found the solution for the vignetting problem with liveview and manual lenses.
Goto Live View/Movie func. set./Silent shoot and set this to Disable

Jun 04, 2009 at 02:08 PM

cavewalker
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p.4 #16 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Ihe vignetting occurs only on very short exposure time like 1/8000.
Now i've read in the manual on page 120 (german manual): Deactivate the silent mode if you use a TS-E lens or an extension ring. Tryed it out. Set the exposure to 1/8000 and no vignetting. if i turn silent mode on mode 1 or 2 the vignetting comes back.

Jun 04, 2009 at 02:36 PM

bobbytan
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p.4 #17 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Okay .... but I think the vignetting you are referring to is different to the vignetting some of us are getting with certain alt lenses .... and shot at any shutter speed/aperture combo.

cavewalker wrote:
Ihe vignetting occurs only on very short exposure time like 1/8000.
Now i've read in the manual on page 120 (german manual): Deactivate the silent mode if you use a TS-E lens or an extension ring. Tryed it out. Set the exposure to 1/8000 and no vignetting. if i turn silent mode on mode 1 or 2 the vignetting comes back.

Jun 04, 2009 at 03:25 PM

carstenw
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p.4 #18 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

My guess (and it is only a guess; I don't own a 5D2) is that it is a combination of two or three issues:

1) Tolerances. It happens with some cameras, not with others. Canon lenses are tested so that they work within the tolerance.

2) Someone commented that it only happens at large apertures. For smaller apertures, only the middle of the lens is used, and then it doesn't happen, so this means the problem has something to do with the edge of the frame, at the shutter or closer to the lens. I guess this was already known, but if you combine this with unchipped lenses, the camera doesn't know how fast (largest aperture) the lens is. This brings me to the point: I think that the 5D2 might have a variable shutter speed, and uses only the fastest speed when the camera thinks it needs it, i.e. fast lenses wide open or somewhere near, at high shutter speeds. In other circumstances, it uses a slightly slower shutter speed, possibly to prolong shutter life, or... to make it quiet:

3) Silent Mode slows down the shutter (even more?), when it can. It might be that the variable speed shutter is only effective when Silent Mode is active... Can someone test if Silent Mode is actually more silent at 1/8000s with a fast chipped/EF lens wide open? My tip is that under these circumstances, it isn't actually more silent, because under these circumstances, the shutter must run at full speed to avoid obscuring part of the image.

I don't quite have the overview on all the facts here. Samuli, does this fit all your facts? Live View must somehow exacerbate the problem, but I don't yet see why. I guess it just changes the timing, since the shutter can be fired without first waiting for the mirror to go up.

Jun 04, 2009 at 03:33 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.4 #19 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Carsten, I don't know what you mean by variable speed shutter. According to my understanding the shutter speeds which are above the flash sync speed are done so that the whole sensor/film is not exposed, but instead smallerr band of sensor/film is exposed to light. The faster the shutter speed the narrower the band which is exposed at same time. I have never heard that the shutter blades in any camera would move at different speeds. Also I don't know how that could be done since it still seems that mechanical shutter is done by cocking some spring and the spring moves the front and back shutters at constant speed - you would need multiple springs to do this at variable speeds

??

1) I don't understand what tolerances has to do with this - if you tape electrical connections from Canon lens and shoot at 1/4000-1/8000 similar vignetting occurs. Or just turn the lens little so that contacts won't touch - but be careful with this since there might be reflection blocking things inside lens which will cause naturally mechanical vignetting which should not be mixed with this electronically/software caused vignetting. Tolerances might be part of equation if we would be talking about mechanical vignetting. Have to be remembered that this vignetting doesn't occur with same lens on conditions where longer shutter speeds like 1/1000s are used.

2) I have hard time believing that Canon would have made the shutter blades to work with multiple different speeds. But everything is of course possible. It may appear to users it only appears at large apertures but this is because they don't use very fast shutter speeds with smaller apertures since there is not enough light to do that. This vignetting has nothing to do lens max aperture or what aperture is used.

3) This is how silent modes seem to work when shutter is pressed in live view:
Mode 1: electronically clear the sensor data while it's exposed to light, exposure, cock the shutter
Mode 2: electronically clear the sensor data while it's exposed to light, exposure wait until user raises finger from shutter, cock the shutter
Disabled: close the shutter, clear the sensor data, expose, cock the shutter

So to me it looks like Canon has achieved the silenced modes by 1) doing less mechanical operations and 2) timing them so that all the sound is not coming at same time, which makes the camera appear to be more silent for people.

Additional benefit of silent mode in live view is that it causes less vibrations than silent mode disabled, you can easily feel this by putting your camera to light and not very sturdy tripod and using long shutter speed (>2 seconds so you can really separate shutter opening and closing) you can feel how camera causes lens and tripod to shake at beginning of exposure if you disable silent mode. It's of course smaller than vibration caused by moving mirror but it can still be felt.

If you use the viewfinder (live view not used) then you can hear also that mirror movement is different. However I did not find silent shooting from 5DmkII without live view by quick check to menu, maybe that is only available in 1DmkIII

? where it's needed since by default the mirror moves at speed required for 10 frames per second and makes big noise. Does 5DmkII have silent shooting if using viewfinder, or is it just me not finding it from menu and custom functions?

I test this before and after firmware upgrade, which I was planning to do in this weekend. It's so dark and rainy in Finland thou that getting 1/8000s shutter speed is impossible with proper exposure. I check the silent mode effect as well while testing for firmware upgrade.
--
Samuli Vahonen
http://www.vahonen.com

Jun 04, 2009 at 11:59 PM

carstenw
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p.4 #20 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

With tolerances I mean that whereas your camera shows vignetting, others in this thread get none, even under the same circumstances. This is the same issue as some people needing mirror shaves for certain lenses, and others not. Do you get vignetting with Silent Mode off?

The variable speed shutter could be implemented if there were two settings for cocking the spring. However, if the Silent Mode is only available in Live View, then probably my theory is wrong.

For sound level testing, proper exposure is not needed

Jun 05, 2009 at 02:56 AM

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