Canon 5D MKII and Live View

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Archive 2009 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

olyacme
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p.2 #1 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Surprisingly quiet discussion since if this is common 5DmkII problem this basically means that 5DmkII is not usable with alternative lenses (depends on shooting style but I shoot 99% with live view). Is burningheat the only person suffering from this?

I'm surprised discussion abated, too, considering the furor generated by an issue that, unlike this one, cannot be seen at web resolution. It would be aggravating in the extreme to find one shot spoilt in the middle of a mosaic sequence or focus stack come processing time. I'm also contemplating buying a 5Dii, and I'd really like to find a reason to blame live view exclusively as then at least there'd be a definitive workaround. Even at that, given my reliance on LV, I know I'd still get burned by this from time to time. It'd be particularly awful if it affected movie mode, though with the widespread use of manual lenses for this I expect it would have gained wider attention by now if it did.

I remain curious as to what happens when the camera's inverted (or gently shaken!) when taking a movie through a manual lens.

Feb 13, 2009 at 07:13 AM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #2 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

ovredal73 wrote:
I think it is only in portrait mode or similar "off horisontal" shooting.
This is the worst possible - panorama heads are build so that camera is on vertical orientation. I have also found out that due to my shooting style I shoot almost 45% of the photos vertical so for me this would be show stopper even without panoramas.

Feb 13, 2009 at 07:37 AM

llcFM
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p.2 #3 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

I am able to reproduce the problem with a Voigtlander 40/2, an Olympus 50/1.2, but a Zeiss ZE 50/1.4 Planar and EF 50/1.8 show no issue.

Nor do I observe an issue on the EOS 1Ds Mark III, using the problem lenses.

Based on my inspection of the 5D Mark II, I do not believe this is a mirror issue; I think it's a software bug.

Feb 15, 2009 at 09:25 PM

ovredal73
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p.2 #4 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

André - did you use chipped or non-chipped adapters?
Thanks, Samuli Vahonen

Samuli - I only use cheap, non-chipped adapters. I will try to test this some more this week. I only use the rokkor 58 now and it does not have any issues. Havent seen this problem for a while, maybe due to lens choice...

André

Feb 15, 2009 at 09:54 PM

burningheart
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p.2 #5 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

I was asked for additional information. Summarized my findings

1. Only happens with alternate lens with unchipped adapters for Lieca, Olympus and F mount. Use cameraquest adapters. Has not happened with any Canon lens.
2. Only appears when aperture is set F1.4 through F5, does not happen F5.6 through F45.
3. Usually when lens is tilted vertically but on opposite side of mirror. Happened on mirror side when the shot camera upsidedown. I saw it a coupke of times on a horizontal picture at the bottom of the frame.
4. Seems most pronounced on non wide angle lens. I have seen it on focal lengths of 60mm(Coastal Optics), 135mm(Nikon DC), 180mm(Angenieux, Lieca), and 250mm(Olympus). Didin't happen on the 28mm(Nikon).
5. Does not occur when Live view turned off before snapping picture.

Other findings I just recently noticed
1. Happened so far only in daylight, irrelevant of suns position.
2. Seems to occur at shutter speeds faster than 1/2500 second.

My solution has been to focus with live view and then turn it off to shoot. I am not spending anytime right now investigating any further as my Mom is in the hospital, so photography is not a priority.

Feb 15, 2009 at 10:57 PM

llcFM
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p.2 #6 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

A discovery: the Auto LIghting Optimizer feature is not responsible, but it exacerbates the problem. Be sure to turn it off, though with RAW you can do this later in processing.

I've now tried the Leica 90/2 APO-Summicron-R also, with a Novoflex (dumb) adapter. Same problems as with the other lenses.

http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2009-02-blog.html#_20090215VignettingLiveView

Feb 15, 2009 at 11:14 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.2 #7 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Burningheart,
Thanks for the summary and in documenting this problem.
Hope your mom recovers soon. Best wishes.

Feb 16, 2009 at 08:01 PM

burningheart
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p.2 #8 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Thanks for the well wishes she's in for tests now so I had some spare time today and received my cameraquest adapter in the mail that was chipped for 100mm F2.0. Bought from another FM'er. Ran a quick set of tests ISO 200, 1/8000 lens Angeneiux 180mm(f2.3) and Nikon 105mm DC (f2.0) first with chipped adapter and the without. I found the chipped adapter shots do not show the issue. Chipped shots on the right.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Feb 16, 2009 at 09:32 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.2 #9 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Actually I didn't do a very good job of describing the issue with my 40D: sometimes I see the vignetting while focusing with LiveView, but when I take the shot it's not there and the image is always fine.

Weird.

Mar 05, 2009 at 08:52 AM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #10 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Finally had opportunity to test this with my new 5D mkII: it seems chipped adapters work just fine, or actually if camera has electronical connection to lens, this problem can be regenerated by Canon lenses as well by blocking the electronical contact between camera and lens. Luckily I have all my adapters chipped so this issue does not concern me at this point at all.

1. EXIF chip connected, 2. no electonical connection, 3. EXIF chip connected, 4. no electonical connection
This image is copyrighted by the owner

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Mar 14, 2009 at 01:56 PM

dmonterisi
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p.2 #11 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

just did a quick and extremely unscientific test using 4 lenses:

-cv125 apo macro, which has been converted to ef mount (not the native ef mount version) and does not have a chip or other electronic connector
-zeiss 85/1.4 with happypagehk af-confirm chipped adapter
-leica 19mm/2.8 (ver II, non-ROM) with non-chipped cameraquest adapter
-ef 135L.

I took 5 images per lens, all at max aperture and infinity focus out my apartment window at the 59th st bridge and extremely overcast sky in the distance. these were handheld as I don't feel like getting out the tripod. I took images at 5 shutter speeds: 1/8000, 1/5000, 1/3200, 1/2500, 1/2000.

no vignetting issues at all on the ef 135L or the zeiss 85/1.4 with chipped adapter at any shutter speed.

the cv125 and leica 19 both exhibited substantial vignetting in BOTH portrait and landscape orientation at the bottom of the frame (the right side in vertical orientation) at 1/8000 shutter speed. it got better at 1/5000. Very little but noticeable at 1/3200 and basically gone by 1/2500 and 1/2000.

basically, to me, this means that LV with non-chipped lenses will create vignetting at shutter speeds of 1/3200 and faster. the vignetting is on the bottom of the image, which, as i understand it, is the part of the sensor closest to the flash shoe, correct?

i wonder if somebody else wants to try to replicate these results? while i have no understanding of shutter construction and how LV works, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that the chipped adapter makes a difference.

-damon

Mar 14, 2009 at 02:58 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #12 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Damon, I forgot to mention the shutter speed effect - I find effect of shutter speed similar as you. And yes this is area of sensor which is closest to the hotshoe. So in Finland this rarely is problem

Mar 14, 2009 at 03:25 PM

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p.2 #13 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

SOME CLARIFICATION PLEASE:

1: Does the problem happen when in live-view MODE, or only when the live-view LCD is on?

2: Is this being discussed elsewhere, is it a confirmed problem?

3: If confirmed, is it a defect, found on on some cameras? (i.e. a recall problem)

4: Has it been confirmed that chipped adapters solve the problem, 100% ?
-----------------------

5: Is a specific type of chip required?

In other words, is focus-confirm enough, or does it require maximum aperture exif data? I ask because my chips can't always be programmed for the exact max aperture. (I use the programmable type)

-And if aperture data is required, what happens when you stop down a little?

- If focus-confirm is all that's required, what happens if you purposely have the center of the shot OOF?

Mar 20, 2009 at 12:20 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #14 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Cableaddict wrote:
SOME CLARIFICATION PLEASE:

1: Does the problem happen when in live-view MODE, or only when the live-view LCD is on?
What is live view mode? Either you use live view or don't use - when you do use live view, then image is displayed in LCD and then this happens, there is no half way live view mode that live view is on and LCD is not connected unless you use external monitor via cables, that I haven't tested...and will not. It won't happen if you are not using live view.

Cableaddict wrote:
2: Is this being discussed elsewhere, is it a confirmed problem?
I haven't checked the manual focus forum, but that is about the only place in addition to this forum in which alternative lenses are discussed. Another usage without electronical connection between lens and body is astrophotography (T-mount to telescopes), in which I doubt that higher shutter speeds than 1/2000s are used...

Cableaddict wrote:
3: If confirmed, is it a defect, found on on some cameras? (i.e. a recall problem)
The number of testers in this thread is too small to clearly identify this. Based on how the few testers, who have purchased 5DmkII at different times from different continents, in this thread have so similar symptoms that there is no reason to thing this is camera/batch specific.

This definetly ain't causing recall, why Canon would care people not using their own lenses? And as can be seen from images with chip, Canon lens, slow enough shutter speed or simply live view not used there is no strange vignetting. This is a software problem, when no electronical connection then something goes wrong.

Cableaddict wrote:
4: Has it been confirmed that chipped adapters solve the problem, 100% ?
At least happypagehk and non-brand ebay adapters do work. Canon lens works the same way if you turn it in the mount so it doesn't have electronical connection. 100% sure, wait 5 years and I'll tell you...

Cableaddict wrote:
5: Is a specific type of chip required?
I have tested with happypagehk (10+ adapters to C/Y, Nikon, Leica) and nobrand eBay chipped cheap adapters. To me it seems that there is no difference between chips, but for statistical analysis the sample is too small.

Cableaddict wrote:
In other words, is focus-confirm enough, or does it require maximum aperture exif data? I ask because my chips can't always be programmed for the exact max aperture. (I use the programmable type)
- And if aperture data is required, what happens when you stop down a little?
- If focus-confirm is all that's required, what happens if you purposely have the center of the shot OOF?
Only thing needed is that camera things that there is electronically connected lens in the camera. This has nothing to do with the values provided by the chip or autofocus system of the camera.

It's really missleading to call these chips focus confirm chips, what the heck could be more missleading, the chip doesn't tell if the focus is achieved or not. The chips are simply providing electronical communication to camera, part of the information is EXIF relevant. This electronical communication information is used by camera, for example Canon cameras won't enable the AF system unless lens communicates aperture value to camera.

Some of the adapters I also have wrong max value, for example Zeiss Planar 1.7/50 is coded to 1.8 and Zeiss 3.4/35-70 had to be coded to 3.5, since it's not possible to send 1.8 or 3.5 from lens to camera.
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Mar 20, 2009 at 02:57 PM

Conner999
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p.2 #15 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

The mirror is just grazing something and getting slowed down enough in its travel as a result to be caught by the shutter when taking the frame - hence the shadow at what would be the bottom of the frame.

The reason not everyone sees it is the infamous variation in mirror box tolerances/mirror placement between 5D/IIs. Also why will not seen with Canon lenses or with FF 1 series. Depending on lens, the problem may only appear as you focus towards infinity and lens mech extends rearward.

You'll get the same effect if you mount say a Leica 19 Mod2 that isn't shaved enough on a FF 1 series. Mirror slows at top of arc as it JUST grazes rear element shroud (remember lens projects upside down) and just gets caught in frame as shutter trips. Mirror will return as if no issue - you won't hear the difference in shutter movement. Try the same lens on a 1 series FF and you'll not see the vignetting - tighter manufacturing tolerances. Same goes if you try them on a cropped body.

Remember, in most cases (A900 excluded) the mirror in a DSLR travels in a straight arc. As such the distance between the bottom edge of the mirror and the lens mount changes throughout that arc. It's why when you shave a lens's rear element shroud you only need to shave it one spot.

Many adapter makers also mill their product a little skinny to "guarantee" infinity focus. On a 5D/II this can cause problems such as you're seeing.

Solutions - Shave mirror (a hair from looks of it) or thicker adapters and risk giving up infinity. I've run adapted lens's from any number of players using chipped, unchipped and custom-chipped adapters on the 30D, 1Ds2, 1D2, 1DS2, 5D. The only time I've ever seen this is in the situation described above. It will always appear at what would be the bottom of the frame in normal landscape mode.

Edited on Mar 20, 2009 at 03:20 PM · View previous versions

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:03 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #16 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Conner, are you serious or joking?

Assuming you are serious, please explain why this happens:

All about 1/4000s, ISO 100, using live view (the picture I had few posts above).

Lens Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 2.8/85:
- adapter happypage with chip: OK
- adapter no-brand ebay without chip: vignettes
- adapter happypage with chip but contacts taped: vignettes
- adapter happypage turned 30 degrees so that aperture displays "0": vignettes

Lens Canon EOS 85mm f/1.2 L USM mkII:
- lens normally in camera: OK
- lens turned 30 degrees so that aperture displays "0": vignettes
- lens normally in camera but taped connections: vignettes

Sorry if I just didn't understood your joke...

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:13 PM

Cableaddict
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p.2 #17 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Some of the adapters I also have wrong max value, for example Zeiss Planar 1.7/50 is coded to 1.8 and Zeiss 3.4/35-70 had to be coded to 3.5, since it's not possible to send 1.8 or 3.5 from lens to camera.

That's specifically what I needed to know.

thanks, Samuli.

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:19 PM

Conner999
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p.2 #18 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Call it a partial joke. It is the identical effect as seen on mirror graze where the mirror is getting caught during the exposure.

I agree with what you're seeing implies a software 'gotcha' with the new bodies and the use of un-chipped lens's. In your case the test would seem to clearly indicate that. But a software gotcha in what regard?

What in the light path would be causing such heavy vignetting in the same spot when using LV? Forget what triggers it to happen, but what actually physically causes the light blockage? It's not some subtle M8-like angled micro-lens vignetting correction that's failing to happen.

Since it appears consistently in one location, my bet - start looking at how the mirror(s) behaves in LV and then how chipped vs. un- chipped lenses could effect it's behavior. Could the body failing to sense a lens (e.g. an EPROM at it's contacts) they throw the timing off between the shutter trip mechanism and the mirror mechanics for LV use? That or something wonky with the shutter, but I can't see how/why they would change the shutter hardware from say the 5D to 5DII to accommodate LV.

Unfortunately, given as only happens with non-EF (or non-ZE) lenses, don't expect a resolution from Canon any time in the near future.

Edited on Mar 20, 2009 at 03:48 PM · View previous versions

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:28 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #19 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Conner, I don't think mirror has anything to do with this, wouldn't the vignetting then be affected to whole picture and not more on bottom right corner in the image?

I shoot some photos without lens = no connection and could not see the mirror hanging at any shutter speed, I even touched the backside of mirror when taking photos and it didn't move even slightest bit.

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:46 PM

Conner999
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p.2 #20 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

In the example I gave above the mirror travels as normal but just contacts the element shroud on the back of the lens. This slows the mirror down JUST enough in it's travel upward (bottom of frame in landscape mode) so that when the shutter trips, it catches the front edge of the mirror in the frame. Image captured, mirror returns to rest position.

This 'catch' produces a shadow across the bottom of frame in landscape. The effect I see on this thread is identical to that. Heavy strip of vignetting always at bottom of frame (landscape).

Turn the body 90 CCW for portrait and it's along the RHS, turn body 90 deg CW for a portrait and it's along LHS.

My guess is that firmware knows it takes shutter X ms to clear sensor FoV (+/- a deviation), it waits that long at shutter button hit, then trips - assuming mirror is physically clear. If not 100% so, you get a shadow captured.

Mirror is tight and secure, looks and feels normal. There is essentially nothing wrong with it, juts under those circumstances it isn't clearing the sensors field of view in time. How chipped and un-chipped could cause the same effect with LV - no idea, but I'd start by looking at how the mirror(s) is moved in LV mode.

The fact that folks like Lloyd are not seeing with his 1DS3 and assuming that LV implementation is the same between bodies (no reason why wouldn't be), the only real variation known to the 5D is the #$%^ mirror and variations in it's placement, etc.

Again, just a guess on my part based on prior experience. Will be interested to see what actual resolution/issue turns out to be.

Mar 20, 2009 at 03:54 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #21 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Conner999 wrote:
In the example I gave above the mirror travels as normal but just contacts the element shroud on the back of the lens. This slows the mirror down JUST enough in it's travel upward (bottom of frame in landscape mode) so that when the shutter trips, it catches the front edge of the mirror in the frame. Image captured, mirror returns to rest position.

This 'catch' produces a shadow across the bottom of frame in landscape. Turn the body 90 CCW and it's the RHS, turn body 90 deg CW and it's LHS. My guess is that firmware knows it takes shutter X ms to clear sensor FoV (+/- a deviation), it waits that long at shutter button hit, then trips - assuming mirror is physically clear.

Mirror is tight and secure, it just doesn't clear the sensors field of view in time. I'll see if I can dig up a sample.

I know this phenomenon there was something about this in few years ago in the forum (this forum). However in live view the mirror does not move, so it cannot be slowness of the mirror causing this.

In live view the process of photo taking is:
1. the mirror is raised up when user press the live view button
2. shutter opened
3. user is able to focus and compose on the back LCD screen
4. when shutter is pressed the sensor is cleared (on old cameras shutter is closed for this e.g. 1DmkIII but new cameras like 5DmkII can do this while shutter is open)
5. shutter blades move over the sensor exposing it to light for correct time
6. shutter is closed and depending shutter speed and settings dark frame is shoot with closed shutter and finally image is written to card, then process goes back to step 2

When using camera normally you have to add mirror swinging actions to process, but mirror is all time pressed against the pentaprism when shooting with live view. So even end results are similar this has nothing to do with this "slow mirror" problem.

Resolution to the problem: use chipped adapters or buy chip and clue it to your chiples adapter.

Best regards, Samuli

Mar 20, 2009 at 04:20 PM

Daniel Heineck
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p.2 #22 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

I wonder if it is a result of a mistiming on the autoaperture and shutter opening sequence. If the body reconfirms its aperture and doesn't get a signal it could be engaging the shutter before it clears/activates the sensor

D

Mar 20, 2009 at 04:25 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #23 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Daniel, this is also the reason why I assume this happens. However without knowing how the camera really works one can generate many theories, which may or may not be the cause.

Mar 20, 2009 at 04:29 PM

Conner999
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p.2 #24 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

You may very well be correct (on cause), but effect is eerily similar to non-LV mirror 'brush' and is always in same location and only with 5DIIs (so far anyway)...

There is possibility is shutter-related, but how non-chipped lenses (where body say would be set to 1.8 and just assume dark scene if lens is stopped own to say F4) would effect physical shutter timing I have no idea.

Some screw-up in the auto-aperture timing isn't a bad thought. But it is odd how the problem would vary between the 1Ds3 and 5DII given they probably share a lot of the same LV firmware code.

The solution is easy as you say (while limiting adapter choices or requiring some epoxy), but it would be interesting to see what the final determination is.

Edited on Mar 20, 2009 at 04:35 PM · View previous versions

Mar 20, 2009 at 04:29 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.2 #25 · Canon 5D MKII and Live View

Conner999 wrote:
You may very well be correct (on cause), but effect is eerily similar to non-LV mirror 'brush' and given that it's always in same location and only with 5DIIs (so far)...

There is possibility is shutter-related, but how non-chipped lenses would effect physical shutter timing I have no idea. I'd bet if it's a firmware issue - it's related to something mechanical in the LV mechanism. Now how that would vary between the 1Ds3 and 5DII given they probably share a lot of the same LV firmware code, you've got me.

Be interesting to see what the final determination is.
Conner, live view works differently in 1Ds mkIII and 1D mkIII - they have to close the shutter in order to clear the sensor. 5DmkII in addition to 50D are the only Canons which can clear the sensor without closing the shutter. So there may not be that much common in firmwares of 1D(s) mkIII and 5DmkII.

For this reason I have been laffing when Canon says "you don't need mirror lock-up,use live view". This is bullsh#t for those older cameras, the shutter goes back and forth just before the exposure happens and with focal lengths greater than 150mm better results were achieved, even gigantic pixels size 1DmkIII, by using the real mirror-lock-up functionality. For 100mm lens it still was OK to use live view.

Mar 20, 2009 at 04:35 PM


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