400mm lens alternative

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Archive 2009 · 400mm lens alternative

JimN
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p.3 #1 · 400mm lens alternative

pcimaging wrote:
I have said before that my choice will likely be the 300 f4 IS lens to use with and without the TC. I might prefer that 400 5.6 if it were not for the fact that at 4oo mm I have a terrible time trying to locate BIF in the viewfinder of my 40D.. On my Bigma 50-500 I can zoom back to where I locate the birds in the viewfinder and then while keeping it in the viewfinder I can slowly zoom out again. I suppose the 300 will be like that to some degree but not quite as severe. This is something a person might want to consider as well.

If you hand hold the camera/lens and learn subject aquistion skills, finding the bird won't be a problem at any focal length.

Jan 23, 2009 at 01:57 AM

gailb
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p.3 #2 · 400mm lens alternative

JimN wrote:
If you can afford it, get the 400mm F4 DO. If not get the 400mm F5.6. Efficient shooting is the key to hand held success without fatigue. There are several skills you need to learn to accomplish this. If you learn proper technique and skills you can do it!

I can't afford a DO lens.

But the 400mmL I rented arrives Monday or Tuesday. I'd like to make the best use of it during the two week rental period.

Can someone please tell me some of the types of skills I need to learn for efficient shooting hand held?

Also, what are some of the subject acquisition skills?

I'm a total novice at using a heavy lens.

Again, my thanks.

Jan 24, 2009 at 03:50 PM

Duane N
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p.3 #3 · 400mm lens alternative

I think keeping up the shutter speed is most important. + EC for something against the sky and leading/tracking whatever you're trying to photograph. Knowing their habits and body language helps in identifying when they're about to take flight.

Alot of it is mainly practice....sorry to say but that's the best advice I've been given for in-flights.

Jan 24, 2009 at 04:53 PM

gailb
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p.3 #4 · 400mm lens alternative

OK, I tried my friend's 100-400mm IS Lens today. It was a disappointment....I mean I was a disappointment.

It was a very bright sunny day and the subject, an alligator, was side lit.

I first tried the camera on a tripod. Some of my images were still blurred. So that must mean I pressed the shutter release button too hard. A good but embarrassing lesson. But I'm not letting my embarrassment keep me from this confession because I'm not going to improve if I remain unaware of my mistakes.

I took photos while hand-holding the XSi with the 100-400mm L attached. We won't talk about them.

Here's the only decent photo from the lot, and even it isn't so good. I did use the shadow/highlight adjustment to tweak the lighting. It is a 50% crop or thereabout. Admittedly, the gator was quite a distance away.

The 400mm is a very nice focal length.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

My rented 400mm L prime arrives in a day or two. I'll have two weeks with it, instead of a half hour. Hope things go better.

Jan 26, 2009 at 12:06 AM

JimN
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p.3 #5 · 400mm lens alternative

1. Shoot in manual exposure mode, center af point only, ai servo af, high speed continuous drive.
2. Subject aquisition skill: Look at your subject. While looking at your subject pop the camera and lens up to your eye in line with your line of sight to the subject. Practice this with still subjects, then large slow subjects, then small faster subjects. Practice until you can put the subject in the viewfinder instantly almost every time.
3. Efficient shooting: Learn your subjects behavioral patterns so you can anticipate the action. Using #1 only have the camera in shooting position when actualy shooting. The rest of the time rest by putting the camera down.
4. See my thread on bumping the focus for bif and practice that technique for bif on non-sky bgs.

This is just the bare minimum basics. I spent 4 hours on this in the last class I taught on Friday, and that class is intended for advanced amatuer photogs and pros.

Jan 26, 2009 at 01:00 AM

Duane N
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p.3 #6 · 400mm lens alternative

Raise your ISO to 400 to increase your shutter speed. Try stopping down the lens...the Gator shot was at F10 and a ISO of 200. Find the sweet spot of the lens (mine seems the sharpest at F/7.1 but it really depends on the conditions and the subject).

It's not going to happen overnight...it takes some time to find out what works with the equipment you use. Practice...yes, beating a dead Horse here but that's most important.

Jan 26, 2009 at 01:10 AM

pcimaging
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p.3 #7 · 400mm lens alternative

gailb wrote:
OK, I tried my friend's 100-400mm IS Lens today. It was a disappointment....I mean I was a disappointment.

It was a very bright sunny day and the subject, an alligator, was side lit.

I first tried the camera on a tripod. Some of my images were still blurred. So that must mean I pressed the shutter release button too hard. A good but embarrassing lesson. But I'm not letting my embarrassment keep me from this confession because I'm not going to improve if I remain unaware of my mistakes.

I took photos while hand-holding the XSi with the 100-400mm L attached. We won't talk about them.

Here's the only decent photo from the lot, and even it isn't so good. I did use the shadow/highlight adjustment to tweak the lighting. It is a 50% crop or thereabout. Admittedly, the gator was quite a distance away.

The 400mm is a very nice focal length.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

My rented 400mm L prime arrives in a day or two. I'll have two weeks with it, instead of a half hour. Hope things go better.
Consider using a remote shutter release cable for the tripod shots. I say this because you have said you have very shaky hands. The cable release works well for many still shots and some action shots depending on thespeed of the subject.

Jan 26, 2009 at 04:44 PM

gailb
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p.3 #8 · 400mm lens alternative

Duane, I'm practicing!

I've looked at many of the photos of those in this who have galleries listed, as well as those who have contacted me by PM. Quite frankly, your photos take my breath away. Congratulations on the fine and inspiring work! I feel very fortunate to have the caliber of photographers taking so much time to offer me tips.

I have a long way to go but am a few baby steps ahead of where I was when I first started posting. I know these photos are far from the kind of quality and detail you capture but I'm offering them for any any further comments that can help me continue to improve.

I missed Fed Ex yesterday and don't have the 400mm L yet. All photos taken with the Canon XSi and 55-250mm IS lens; Continuous mode, AI Servo mode.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Focal Length 214 mm
Exposure Time 1/1000 sec
Aperture f/6.3
ISO Equivalent 400
Exposure Bias -1/3

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Focal Length 250 mm
Exposure Time 1/2000 sec
Aperture f/6.3
ISO Equivalent 400
Exposure Bias -1/3

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Focal Length 250 mm
Exposure Time 1/2000 sec
Aperture f/6.3
ISO Equivalent 400
Exposure Bias -1/3

Let me see if I can answer one of my own questions. All things being equal, if I had a lens with a longer reach, I could have captured more detail. Am I correct?

Jan 27, 2009 at 07:17 PM

Imagemaster
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p.3 #9 · 400mm lens alternative

pcimaging wrote:
Consider using a remote shutter release cable for the tripod shots. I say this because you have said you have very shaky hands. The cable release works well for many still shots and some action shots depending on thespeed of the subject.

Why bother buying an additional piece of equipment, when the built-in self-timer works just as well?

Jan 27, 2009 at 07:45 PM

pcimaging
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p.3 #10 · 400mm lens alternative

That is true if you want to fiddle with the self timer . Some may prefer using the cameras self timer, I prefer using the cable so when I press the shutter it fires immediately. They really have two different purposes.

Jan 27, 2009 at 08:30 PM

GeneO
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p.3 #11 · 400mm lens alternative

Imagemaster wrote:
pcimaging wrote:
Consider using a remote shutter release cable for the tripod shots. I say this because you have said you have very shaky hands. The cable release works well for many still shots and some action shots depending on thespeed of the subject.

Why bother buying an additional piece of equipment, when the built-in self-timer works just as well?

Uh, timing of the shot

Jan 27, 2009 at 10:45 PM

Imagemaster
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p.3 #12 · 400mm lens alternative

GeneO wrote:
Imagemaster wrote:
pcimaging wrote:
Consider using a remote shutter release cable for the tripod shots. I say this because you have said you have very shaky hands. The cable release works well for many still shots and some action shots depending on thespeed of the subject.

Why bother buying an additional piece of equipment, when the built-in self-timer works just as well?

Uh, timing of the shot

Well how about for static subjects then, when timing does not matter.

Jan 28, 2009 at 12:31 AM

Imagemaster
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p.3 #13 · 400mm lens alternative

gailb wrote:
Let me see if I can answer one of my own questions. All things being equal, if I had a lens with a longer reach, I could have captured more detail. Am I correct?

Not necessarily, since long lenses require a much better and disciplined shooting technique, not to mention the much higher cost.

Jan 28, 2009 at 12:33 AM

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p.3 #14 · 400mm lens alternative

Plus, I believe the OP asked, Can someone please tell me some of the types of skills I need to learn for efficient shooting hand held?

So neither remote shutter release cable, nor self-timer would be solutions for hand-held BIF shots for a person with shaky hands.

Jan 28, 2009 at 12:37 AM

gailb
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p.3 #15 · 400mm lens alternative

And I do have shaky hands.

My rental lens arrived today, the 400mm L lens. It is lighter than the 100-400IS L I tried the other day but still challenging for to hold steady. I removed the tripod color and used it hand-held for about 1/2 hour before the sun went down.

I'm going to give it my best the next two weeks.

I only got an handful of suitable test shots out many, but they were taken at extremely high shutter speeds. Clearly, if I'm ever to use a lens like this regularly, I'm going to have to build up my hand, arm and upper body strength.

My two other first impressions: love the image quality and the speed of the auto focus.

Jan 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM

Duane N
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p.3 #16 · 400mm lens alternative

I don't understand if you know what your problem is (shaky hands) you insist testing out len's hand holding them...that is not a good way to test a lens out.

Can I ask a question? Was the Gator image hand held or shot with a tripod. How about the recent in-flight shots? How much were these images cropped?

I'm only asking to try and understand and help. I shoot with other photographers that refuse to use a tripod/monopod. They rely on a burst mode to get a decent capture...tossing the first two out of the burst becuase the lens was achieving focus, keeping one towards the middle of the burst and tossing out the rest becuase they started moving loosing focus on their subject.

I never understood this type of photography....actually I did until I started using a tripod 99.9% of the time...oh, and I shoot on the go the majority of the time. I do miss some captures setting up but I know I will have another opportunity soon enough.

Jan 28, 2009 at 01:22 AM

jimbob
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p.3 #17 · 400mm lens alternative

gailb wrote:
And I do have shaky hands.

My rental lens arrived today, the 400mm L lens. It is lighter than the 100-400IS L I tried the other day but still challenging for to hold steady. I removed the tripod color and used it hand-held for about 1/2 hour before the sun went down.

I'm going to give it my best the next two weeks.

I only got an handful of suitable test shots out many, but they were taken at extremely high shutter speeds. Clearly, if I'm ever to use a lens like this regularly, I'm going to have to build up my hand, arm and upper body strength.

My two other first impressions: love the image quality and the speed of the auto focus.

Hello gailb,
I have read this thread since your first question on Jan.18th. Your last sentence proves you have been listening to the advice so freely given by all the talent here.
400mm f 5.6 L and adjust ISO to obtain high shutter speed, AIServo is the way to go. You live in USA, look for a used 40D to compliment the 400 f5.6 L whenever you make the plunge. With the 1.6x crop factor you have 640mm at f 5.6. I have the 70-200 f4 L, the 300 f4 L IS, and the 400 f5.6L with the 1.4x and the 2x, and each piece has it's uses. Only buy Canon glass for your Canon, you will find the AF and the optics are all made to compliment each other. As others have said earlier, it is expensive to have to buy the same focal length twice just because you saved a few bucks by buying another brand.
Regards.
Jim.

Jan 28, 2009 at 01:35 AM

GeneO
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p.3 #18 · 400mm lens alternative

Imagemaster wrote:
GeneO wrote:
Imagemaster wrote:
pcimaging wrote:
Consider using a remote shutter release cable for the tripod shots. I say this because you have said you have very shaky hands. The cable release works well for many still shots and some action shots depending on thespeed of the subject.

Why bother buying an additional piece of equipment, when the built-in self-timer works just as well?

Uh, timing of the shot

Well how about for static subjects then, when timing does not matter.

You mean wildlife doesn't move and you don't want to catch that moment with just the right expression? When I shoot stills, I am almost always waiting for the right moment to fire the shutter. And what if it move - you are out of luck with the self timer.

Jan 28, 2009 at 02:56 AM

GeneO
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p.3 #19 · 400mm lens alternative

Jan 28, 2009 at 02:58 AM

gailb
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p.3 #20 · 400mm lens alternative

Duane N wrote:
I don't understand if you know what your problem is (shaky hands) you insist testing out len's hand holding them...that is not a good way to test a lens out.

Duane, I've done a poor job at explaining. I haven't developed the skills to hold a heavier camera in my hands without shaking. I can see movement as I look through the viewfinder and see the focus point jiggle back and forth over the subject. Even when I think I've nailed it, I often don't (I often check focus points in ZoomBrowser).

I was thinking as I walked with the 400mmL lens yesterday, that I should start using my husband's hand weights to gain strength in my arms and hands. Ironically, I rec'd an email from a gal who recently got a 100-400mm IS L, and she wrote: "I might do some arm strengthening exercises so I can carry that lens longer and more easily."

Was the Gator image hand held or shot with a tripod. How about the recent in-flight shots? How much were these images cropped?

That particular photo was taken when the 100-400mm was on a tripod. The owner of the lens had it set up and was taking photos when I arrived. So I didn't even think to look at the settings. The one's I took hand-held were too blurred from camera shake.

Is to the images, they are about 50% crops.

I shoot with other photographers that refuse to use a tripod/monopod. They rely on a burst mode to get a decent capture...tossing the first two out of the burst becuase the lens was achieving focus, keeping one towards the middle of the burst and tossing out the rest becuase they started moving loosing focus on their subject.

I use burst mode. Should I not? I thought it was necessary when using AI Servo.

I admit, I do not like using a tripod; never have. But I also realize that if I want to use 400mm lenses, I may have to, though my preference would be not to. I have a monopod that I may try later this week.

Unfortunately, I may find that I can not handle lenses of this size and weight. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Right now, I want to try my very best to get it to work.

I started using a tripod 99.9% of the time...oh, and I shoot on the go the majority of the time. I do miss some captures setting up but I know I will have another opportunity soon enough.

Can you tell me something about the type of tripod you use? What type of head? I assume it has a quick release? I have very inexpensive tripod so if I get a heavier lens, I'll have to invest in a better tripod.

One other thing...so many of you have better, faster cameras with more sophisticated features, improved performance and speed for burst mode, etc. Maybe even your AI Servo modes perform better than an entry level camera like mine. If so, I may have an equipment disadvantage for bird photography.

Jan 28, 2009 at 01:23 PM

jimbob
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p.3 #21 · 400mm lens alternative

Hello gailb,
I have sent to you an email regarding an adaptor from Manfrotto for to use on your monopod with long lenses. If I can find the # and the name I will post it here.
Regards.
Jim.
PS: Lets see if I can paste this link.
Manfrotto Long Lens Monopod Bracket
Here is a link I hope....
http://www.adorama.com/BG3421.html

More From: Bogen Imaging, Inc.
Item #: 462044
Mfr. Part#: 3421
Availability: On Order
Est. Ship: Call for Availability

Jan 28, 2009 at 06:30 PM

gailb
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p.3 #22 · 400mm lens alternative

Thanks Jim! I've responded to your email. Every time I read a post in here my equipment keeps getting heavier and heavier.

I went out this afternoon with the 400mmL - Day 2 with it.

There were mostly clouds but now and then the sun peeked out. I got a few shots bracing myself against a tree. I didn't get focus locked in the right place for every shot, but at least think I've taken another baby step forward in getting some detail and learning to hold the lens a tad steadier.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Jan 28, 2009 at 08:56 PM

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p.3 #23 · 400mm lens alternative

Gail, those shots look sharper. Try and brace your lens against any solid object that is nearby. Do not let people talk you into getting a tripod and all the assorted gear, if that will make taking the photo more of a burden for you. While using a tripod is great for some people, it just puts others off enjoying a more spontaneous type of photography, which is hand-held.

Try to keep your shutter speed at 1/800 or faster, even if it requires shooting at ISO 800 or 1600. You can always reduce noise in post-processing, but you can't reduce blur. So what would you rather have, a little noise that often won't even show up in a print, or an image that you can't use because of blur?

Jan 28, 2009 at 10:56 PM

dragonfly5
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p.3 #24 · 400mm lens alternative

Hello gailb - just posting this on behalf of my friend Jim. Just thought I'd share the image of his setup for the 400. Jim is the good looking gentleman on the right keeping his eye on some GBH nesting. I'm the one looking at my 70-200 with Jim's 2x wishing I had a 400.

Jan 29, 2009 at 06:54 PM

chupacabra31
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p.3 #25 · 400mm lens alternative

Hey,

Let me put a little disclaimer, I am not a pro so take everything I say with a bit of salt. However if you search my post in the Wildlife section of the forums youll see the results I have gotten with this lens.

I am kind of on the scrawny side so I understand your difficulty in hand holding these lenses. I can tell you that you will adapt it just may take a good year or two!

I also want to second getting a monopod! In low light they are indispensable! I also want to recommend getting a 100-400 IS. I know people I am going to get flack for this, but the 100-400 is every bit as sharp as the 400 f/5.6 (I have had both) and it has the advantage of IS. Granted IS is not the end all be all to your problems. However It really does help. You still have to have good hand holding technique. Have you ever tried bracing your lens on your fore arm with your fist braced against your opposite arm? Also make sure you breathe out, not in and then hold your breath. Works wonders. You might want to consider switching to decaf or cut out coffee altogether. I find caffeine to be my bane when it comes to photography!

Just make sure you test your 100-400 before you buy it and make sure there is little to no difference in sharpness between f/5.6 and f/8 if they are comparable you got yourself a good copy that could be as sharp as the prime.

Finally If you want to see some excellent examples of what the 100-400 can do look up Keith Reeder and view his website, simply stunning stuff!

Best of luck!

Jan 29, 2009 at 07:10 PM


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