Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Moderated by: Carl Auer, guardian

Visit the FM Store · Image Upload · Buy & Sell
FM Forum Rules
Sports Corner Resource

FM Forums | Sports Corner | Join Image Upload
end

dlenos
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #1 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

I bid on a local knothole job for next season - about 900 kids. Got this email back from their board...

At our last board meeting, it was brought to my attention that, for the last several years, the photographers that we have used for pictures have been able to offer a “Memory Mate” (a 4x6 individual photo and a 5x7 team photo) to each player free of charge. This works out really well for our kids, because we do have some families that are financially unable to purchase pictures for their children. Most of the families do purchase additional pictures, buttons, etc., but when all the kids get a free Memory Mate, it ensures that none of the kids are left out of getting a picture.

In the past what Ihave done is take every kids photo - envelope or not - and make sure the kid gets a 5x7 player/team even if his family does not order.. How have you handled similar situations.. any advice.

Jan 08, 2009 at 11:57 PM

thebmrust
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #2 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

A memory mate FREE to EVERY one of the 900 players?

If the league is paying you 20k to be there then sure, give the memory mates away. But if my math is right, at $15 sale (this is LOW end) it's a loss of $13,500...if you go high end at $25 per memory mate, that's $22,500 you will lose in sales.

Maybe giving a memory mate to a few families that can't pay, but not to every one of them.

Hell NO!

Jan 09, 2009 at 02:26 AM

abam
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #3 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

"some families that are financially unable"

then just give free ones to them, maybe, if the group is small enough. that's very cavalier of this board to decide that you're going to be dipping into your own pockets for the good of everyone, even though only "some" families are in need.

i would talk with the board, and ask them to produce a list of how many families would be taking advantage of their generous use of your product.

cheers.

Jan 09, 2009 at 02:33 AM

dpmurray
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #4 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Have the league build in $12-15 a head to the registration fee that gets passed through to you.

Does the league guarantee everyone can play for free?

Sorry, if you are operating a business and not a charity, you don't give away more than a full day of labor and material cost.

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:06 AM

pharmasea
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #5 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Do these same families get their league fees waived too? If so, as mentioned get that list and provide to them. 900 memory mates for free, I'd pass.

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:07 AM

Beau Arnold
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #6 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

abam wrote:
"some families that are financially unable"

then just give free ones to them, maybe, if the group is small enough. that's very cavalier of this board to decide that you're going to be dipping into your own pockets for the good of everyone, even though only "some" families are in need.

i would talk with the board, and ask them to produce a list of how many families would be taking advantage of their generous use of your product.

cheers.

Kudos to a good idea

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:11 AM

timgangloff
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #7 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Do the families know they will get the freebie in advance, or is only known to them after the fact? What I am getting at is that if everyone knows they get the freebie, it will probably negatively affect your bottom line. If they don't know, it might not be too bad. If for example, the contract is worth $25,000 or so and you have to give away a freebie that costs you maybe $2000, then you not lost too much. I think I've heard of other photogs who give that much back to the park/league in some kind of good will kickback. But, since I've never shot that many kids, I am can not speak from experience. Do you keep 100% of all proceeds or does the league keep any? This too might impact your thinking about giving even more away.

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:13 AM

P Alesse
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #8 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

How about this as a solution. You'll donate back an amount, let's say $1.00 per ordered package back to the league and the league decides who the hardship cases are and pay for their ordered packages. This way, it's a set amount and not some arbitrary figure.

I had a league that I was bidding on one year insist that I give a free 8 x 10 to every family and their reasoning was that this was the only way you'll get them to show up on photo day. Unreal.

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:24 AM

mikekel
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #9 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

The people that make those statements often are thinking with their own pocketbooks. Usually what they are looking for is for you to rebate them a percentage of the contract which they can take in the form of a memory pack per player or cash to the organization. Generally they will go for the cash and take care of the financial hardships on their own. It's a soft way for them to ask for a rebate, still not an ethical way to do business but fairly common in youth leagues.

Jan 09, 2009 at 03:46 AM

dlenos
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #10 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

In the past with other organizations I have often sponsored a team ($250) or the org's year end banquet as a thank you for the opportunity to do the photos. I like the idea that P Alesse puts forward, let the league decide and pay for their package.

I would be open to giving a 'free' 5x7 Team photo away to all players. That is something they get and not too high value enough to kill my sells.

I appreciate everyone's view and input on this. The free MM for everyone blew me away, no wonder their last vendor walked away from the gig.

Jan 09, 2009 at 01:21 PM

leewoolery
Online
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #11 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

I would pass on this one....unless this is an economically depressed area or has been hit with lay-offs or plant closings and you're doing this as a gesture of good-will with other local photographers.

From strictly a business standpoint, look at the cost to purchase the folders, process the prints, pay to have them packaged...and your time shooting 900 kids?
You may get additional sales but I wouldn't count on it.

If it's that bad financially, the league must be funded by a government entity or they are operating on a very small budget with volunteer umps and fields are provided free-of-charge!

Now if you wanted to give each player a free 4 x 6 of themselves, that's a different story. Just put them in a separate plastic bag and allow the coach to distribute with ordering instructions for other photo items.

I work with many youth sports leagues, organizations and junior/senior high schools and have been asked to donate percentages or pay a flat vendor fee but never to give the entire league freebies.

Every now and then, a parent or coach will tell me that they are paying for a player's photos because of various reasons ( many times it isn't financial ) and I've given a few packages away to those who I know aren't in a position to purchase but that's something I don't advertise.

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Photo

Jan 09, 2009 at 01:39 PM

John P Mulgrew
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #12 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Every family? No Way! As someone pointed out, does the league waive their fees for all families? Hey if someone is really hurting and you know that there is no way they can afford it then why not, your good deed.

Jan 09, 2009 at 01:45 PM

Mike Mahoney
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #13 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

dlenos wrote:
free of charge .. this works out really well for our kids

yeah .. no kiddin'

Jan 09, 2009 at 01:59 PM

sidewazzz388
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #14 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

pharmasea wrote:
Do these same families get their league fees waived too? If so, as mentioned get that list and provide to them. 900 memory mates for free, I'd pass.

Best idea yet!!!

Jan 09, 2009 at 05:17 PM

Esquire08
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #15 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

What happens when, invariably, the kid has parents that are divorced? You would be looking at an even higher amount of "free" MMs to produce. Somewhere in the 1200 range (conservatively speaking). Then what happens when their grandparents want one? Is the league going to ask you to give those away as well?

One free picture is ok, but something like that will induce more solicitations for free photos.

It does not sound like the league addresses photography as a business. Let them employ a few moms with 4-year old point and shoots.

Jan 09, 2009 at 07:52 PM

Geoffrey Bolte
Online
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #16 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

I'd pass I was shooting T&I for a guy who did this for a league this past year. Got the contract, and was informed of the freebie, was not happy about it but it got him a bunch of other leagues as well (none did a freebie). Free Team 5x7, not as grand as a Memory Mate, but still a lot of people decided to not buy anything as they were already getting something anyways. It hurt sales badly.

If the parents don't know about it then go for it as they will probably order, problem is as you stated in the past that is what they did and they probably expect it now.

I'd back away from it unless you can get the league to raise their fee to play and kick some to you for the cost of the memory mates.

Jan 09, 2009 at 08:11 PM

Gerry Szarek
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #17 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

As for kids playing for free it does happen even in affluent towns. The fee to play is either waived or "scholarships" are offered. Typically this number is under 10% of all players. I would offer the product free to those who are on "scholarship" and jack up your prices to make up for this. Alternately I would charge a $1 sitting fee per kid/coach. Just my 2 cents in a world of nickels.

Jan 09, 2009 at 09:43 PM

johnecon
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #18 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

dlenos wrote:
. . . the photographers that we have used for pictures . . .

It sounds to me like they're not using those photographers any more - - - maybe they went out of business giving away free pictures!!

On a serious note - - - if some families are enough of a hardship case that the league discounts their league fee, then maybe give those families free or discounted pictures.

John

Jan 14, 2009 at 04:22 AM

HoldenMan
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #19 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

timgangloff wrote:
Do the families know they will get the freebie in advance, or is only known to them after the fact? What I am getting at is that if everyone knows they get the freebie, it will probably negatively affect your bottom line. If they don't know, it might not be too bad.

But then word gets around, and next year a few more families think 'you know, I don't have to pay for my photos if he's going to give them away for free anyway'....I think that approach may be a little shortsighted.

IMO, a better arrangement may be to offer to donate, say, 10% of your earnings to the club and suggest that the club pays for the photos for these poorer families. The club would still get profit, and the families wouldn't feel like you're giving freebies to anybody who doesn't order, so both of you benefit.

Another plus for the club is that these families would then feel like the club (who takes their hard earned dollars every year) is giving something back to them, while all families and the club see the $$$ you've deposited into their bank account - which should hopefully ensure repeat business for yourself.

Seems like a rather win-win approach to this situation, IMO.

Jan 14, 2009 at 08:09 AM

Ralph Thompson
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #20 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

I do a fair amount of T&I's in the Sacramento area. More and more leagues are going away from the standard league pay (for MemoryMate & Button). I've found more leagues demanding something for free or a huge "donation" from your sales. If you don't stay up with the market trends in your area you'll find yourself out of work.

I've had a lot of luck in offering a free MM with the purchase of any other package. I've also had some success with helping with fund raisers. The bottomline is you've gotta have a spot on product, stellar customer service and the best possible prices. Make it hard to say no and make it easy to offer a lost leader if that's what it takes.

Some of the quality of these "free" photos are terrible, the parents hate them but they stay with the photographer because no one on the board wants to change.

Jan 15, 2009 at 04:12 AM

T.K.
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #21 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Sheesh..... Just friggin' Sheesh! Im thinking of going into McDonalds tomorrow and asking for a free cheeseburger. I wonder what kind of response I will get.

Jan 15, 2009 at 04:26 AM

pappawheely
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #22 · Youth Sports - Hardship cases

Just tell the league you are one of those families.

Jan 15, 2009 at 05:39 PM


FM Forums \| Sports Corner \| Join Image Upload end