Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List

FM Forums \| Wedding Photographer \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 end

Archive 2009 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Nathan27
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Ok, I just finished up with one moonbat obnoxious client. I'm REALLY ready to be done with them for just a little while. Out of all of our clients this last year only one really annoyed the heck out of me, but I just finished with her today and I'm VERY happy to be finished!

With that said: I have a lady who is interested in booking us. However, she seems flaky and moonbatish and I'm going to have to go with gut instinct on this one and say "I don't need any more drama". I want to be finished with her without potentially hurting my reputation and without her realizing I'm shrugging her off because I get a bad vibe. Her most recent e-mail to me is that she doesn't want to pay the deposit until we meet and she can't do so until Feb. Well obviously I won't hold the date for her for that long or even close to it. She said she is worried I'm a potential scammer and that maybe the pictures on my website weren't mine. I can understand that attitude and if I was finding a photographer I would have similar concerns. Then again, I would do a little bit of research and would never tell the photographer of my concerns. A little googling, and a whois lookup and it should be obvious that I am who I say I am. The part that sketches me out is that in her e-mail before that she asked how she should put down a deposit. I don't like wishy washy crap and that's what this is. If she did this now I'll have to deal with this level of stupid from here on out with her if I let her book me.

I'm worried that if I give her references she will think I'm just faking e-mails or even phone calls...I don't want to underestimate her paranoia here. I'm worried that if I tell her I booked the date and she is SOL she will take that as a confirmation that she unearthed me for the scammer she suspected. Then, she'll run to The Knot and I'll have even more retarded drama to deal with. I'm worried that if I tell her "I just don't think we are the right fit for each other" she will do the exact same thing. I could let a week or two pass and THEN tell her the date was booked, but that seems like a silly way of dealing with the situation.

How would you rid yourselves of this drama llama?

Edited on Jan 04, 2009 at 08:34 AM · View previous versions

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:03 AM

Gary Harfield
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #2 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Send them somthing like:

Thank you for your interest in (name of company). Choosing a photographer that is a good fit to capture your day is a hard choice. A photography studio also struggles with choosing which Brides to fill such a small number of available days. Based on your response to our fill in your choice here, we feel you would be better served to keep searching and find a photographer that better meets your needs.

Thanks and good luck.

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:25 AM

Chrono1081
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #3 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Whats moonbat mean?

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:26 AM

Nathan27
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #4 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Chrono1081 wrote:
Whats moonbat mean?

It's just another way of saying crazy

Gary: that is a very professional way of putting it and is definitely a good option, thanks!

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:38 AM

alanwarp
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #5 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Chrono1081 wrote:
Whats moonbat mean?

Not to get into an etymology discussion here, but I'm guessing the original poster isn't aware of the usual meaning. 'Moonbat' is a slang political term for an ultra liberal, just like 'wingnut' is a slang political term for an ultra conservative...both terms are out of place on a photography forum IMHO and they are usually used in a denigrating manner...

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:39 AM

drew.bowser
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #6 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Honestly, if she is a wingnut or dingbat or whatever other term applicable...dont worry about her too much. If she cant meet with you until Feb then let her know that you cannot promise the date to her. Mention that it is a first come first serve basis. Then 3 weeks down the road (not right away) Just email her and let her know that you no longer have the date available. This is not lying... because if you dont want to work with her then it is not available to her. Seriously, dont stress about it too much.

Don't tell her that you dont want to work with, or that you aren't the right "fit" for her because if she is as difficult as you say, then she may try and sue you for some sort of discrimination.

Good Luck and let us know how it all works out.

~Andrew

Jan 04, 2009 at 06:59 AM

liza
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #7 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

I'd probably say something like this:

Dear (Moonbat Bride):

I regret to inform you that I am no longer available for your wedding date. I wish you the best.

Sincerely,

Nathan

Jan 04, 2009 at 07:01 AM

louloulou
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #8 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Gary Harfield wrote:
Send them somthing like:

Thank you for your interest in (name of company). Choosing a photographer that is a good fit to capture your day is a hard choice. A photography studio also struggles with choosing which Brides to fill such a small number of available days. Based on your response to our fill in your choice here, we feel you would be better served to keep searching and find a photographer that better meets your needs.

Thanks and good luck.

+1

Other than that, I think you may basically have to say something like:

As per our studio's policy, we are unable to retain that date for you unless a deposit is received...etc
and just leave it at that. Really what can she do? Anyone she talks to probably already thinks she's a dingbat... Even if its not obvious to her, someone in her own circle of accquaintences should know that in the wedding industry dates can't be retained unless a deposit is paid whether it be a photographer or the reception venue.

I've got a funny feeling I may have one of these brides coming up this year. I wish I'd said no.

Good luck!

Jan 04, 2009 at 07:02 AM

Nathan27
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

alanwarp wrote:
Chrono1081 wrote:
Whats moonbat mean?

Not to get into an etymology discussion here, but I'm guessing the original poster isn't aware of the usual meaning. 'Moonbat' is a slang political term for an ultra liberal, just like 'wingnut' is a slang political term for an ultra conservative...both terms are out of place on a photography forum IMHO and they are usually used in a denigrating manner...

Huh, I DID get the phrase from a forum that frequently discusses politics in a not nice manner. I didn't mean that I think she's an ultra-liberal, ultra-conservative or anything of the sort. I always just assumed they used it as a synonym for crazy which would apply to her. Sorry if I offended, I just meant she was a wacko...not one of any particular persuasion (and it really wouldn't matter to me...my clients have been from all sides of the political spectrum and we've gotten along great...as long as their checks clear

)

I'll probably just mention that I can't hold the date and then tell her in a bit that it is no longer available using a similarly professional way to what was said earlier.

The crazy one I just finished up with gave me that bad vibe at first too, I REALLY should have known better, but hey...lesson learned! In general I love our clients, it's just those rare few who slip through...

Edit: you know, funny enough I KNOW she shopped around after her initial inquiry with me and eventually came back around my way. What do you bet all the other photographers were smart enough to spot the crazy right up front and say they weren't available? I know this because she actually told me she shopped me against everyone else. It was one of those "should I be flattered....or not?" moments.

Jan 04, 2009 at 08:33 AM

yogi3939
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #10 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Nathan27 wrote:

Edit: you know, funny enough I KNOW she shopped around after her initial inquiry with me and eventually came back around my way. What do you bet all the other photographers were smart enough to spot the crazy right up front and say they weren't available? I know this because she actually told me she shopped me against everyone else. It was one of those "should I be flattered....or not?" moments.

Well if a well known and respected wedding planner said that he/she shopped around all the other photogs in my area and decided I was the first best choice for her to recomend to her clients I would definitely be flattered. But having a PITA potential client who already looks like a nutcase before you even meet her tell me she shopped all the competition and decided to grace me with her oh so important business I would just come to the same conclusion you seem to have already come to, she thinks I may be the only one that is stupid enough to work with her.

Jan 04, 2009 at 01:14 PM

radioblurs
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Gary Harfield wrote:
Send them somthing like:

Thank you for your interest in (name of company). Choosing a photographer that is a good fit to capture your day is a hard choice. A photography studio also struggles with choosing which Brides to fill such a small number of available days. Based on your response to our fill in your choice here, we feel you would be better served to keep searching and find a photographer that better meets your needs.

Thanks and good luck.

with all due respect, -1

this is the type of email/letter i'd send to someone i'd established a relationship with-for an inquiry (whom you haven't even met with), it's i prefer liza's simple and short version-it doesn't reveal too much

if this potential bride really is a difficult person, any information, reasonable or not can be used against you

daniel

Jan 04, 2009 at 03:29 PM

John Power
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Seriously, how much damage do you really think she can do? My guess is zero. She CAN do damage of you take her on. There are times when I have a potential client come in and I figure out fairly quickly that I do not like them. I look and them and say "I have decided I am not interested in taking you case" That's it. Short, sweet, simple and definitely to the point. I see no reason why photographers can't do the same.

Jan 04, 2009 at 10:45 PM

James R
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #13 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Tell her you cannot hold a date without a deposit. You have another inquiry on the date in question and will accept their deposit. Wish her luck in finding a photographer and a happy wedding day. I'd wait a week before sending the response.

Jan 05, 2009 at 03:23 AM

MAC
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #14 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Be in business to be in business.

Tell her the policy is to receive the deposit this week to hold the date, otherwise it will not be available.

Make sure your business model has no discounts for this client.

Have a good contract.

Make a bunch of money or she bails because she doesn't meet your policy...

then it is not you, it is her who bails...

Jan 05, 2009 at 03:33 AM

DavidWEGS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #15 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Dear XXXX,

while I am truly flattered that you would consider us for your day, I really believe your needs would be better served with someone who can fulfill your specific needs better than I feel we would.

May I recommend www.anotherphotog.com as an alternative.

Thanks again for your consideration and all the best to you both on your day.

Jan 05, 2009 at 04:50 AM

Gordon walker
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #16 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Be professional even if the customer is not. Always be prompt in responding. Be pleasant. Your policy is stated on your website, but be nice. Word it something to the affect of "Just as you have concerns, I'm sure you can understand why I cannot hold a date without a minimum deposit." Tell her that you would be happy to hold the date for a non-refundable deposit on the minimum package with a release form (attached) if she can't meet until February. Signing the contract and those specifics can wait (chance to upsell in person).

She's concerned about scammers just like you are concerned about those who cut and run. Surely she can empathize with you. My motto is maintain 50/50 at all times in any negotiation. That weeds out the nuts all by itself. Give an inch and if they take a mile, it's your own fault.

Some people ask questions for the sake of asking something to size you up (I've had 45 minute conversations about the weather and then booked business without a business question). Older folks, some in the 40s and definitely older, are not email savy. They may not know how they come across. Ask her to call you with further questions in your response. You might confirm your fears or not.

Jan 05, 2009 at 10:15 PM

MAC
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #17 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Gordon walker wrote:
Be professional even if the customer is not. Always be prompt in responding. Be pleasant. Your policy is stated on your website, but be nice. Word it something to the affect of "Just as you have concerns, I'm sure you can understand why I cannot hold a date without a minimum deposit." Tell her that you would be happy to hold the date for a non-refundable deposit on the minimum package with a release form (attached) if she can't meet until February. Signing the contract and those specifics can wait (chance to upsell in person).

She's concerned about scammers just like you are concerned about those who cut and run. Surely she can empathize with you. My motto is maintain 50/50 at all times in any negotiation. That weeds out the nuts all by itself. Give an inch and if they take a mile, it's your own fault.

Some people ask questions for the sake of asking something to size you up (I've had 45 minute conversations about the weather and then booked business without a business question). Older folks, some in the 40s and definitely older, are not email savy. They may not know how they come across. Ask her to call you with further questions in your response. You might confirm your fears or not.

This is great advice!

Jan 05, 2009 at 11:56 PM

btrippy
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #18 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

If all her concern is that she's afraid you're going to split, then I'd simply say, "I can't hold your date until I get a deposit." and if you fill the date, you're done with her. If you don't, at least you still get a booking. The first one may have been a pain, but her money is still green. I don't know how much you're charging, but I'm sure it's worth over a grand or 2 for the headache. If you're charging $500....

Jan 06, 2009 at 01:32 AM

cordellwillis
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #19 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

John Power wrote:
Seriously, how much damage do you really think she can do? My guess is zero. She CAN do damage of you take her on. There are times when I have a potential client come in and I figure out fairly quickly that I do not like them. I look and them and say "I have decided I am not interested in taking you case" That's it. Short, sweet, simple and definitely to the point. I see no reason why photographers can't do the same.

+1

Don't make this thing so dramatic. A short note letting her know you are no longer available and move on. It's not as if she will post billboards around town about you. Even if she tell a few people do you really think it'll get around THAT much?

Jan 06, 2009 at 02:57 AM

John Power
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #20 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

If I had a client sit down in my office and tell me they were worried I might be a potential scammer it would all I could do no to get up, walk around my desk and physically throw them out of my office. I would not give a DAMN about what they might say to anyone. All this "nice guy PR tenderness" stuff would not work for me in an insulting scenario like that.

It is not difficult to verify the authenticity of a bonafide professional no matter what the profession...

Jan 06, 2009 at 09:00 PM

Chiefdog72
Online
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #21 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

John Power wrote:It is not difficult to verify the authenticity of a bonafide professional no matter what the profession...

You mean like Bernard Madoff.....He was authentic alright.

I don’t blame people for being skeptical these days. Just remember it is not personal, it’s business.

Always treat your clients in a professional, courteous manner. If it’s your policy not to book a date without a deposit (I agree with this policy) then just tell her so in a professional and courteous manner. You cannot control every client and situation, but if you handle every client and situation with professionalism, honesty and integrity your reputation will spread and your business will benefit.

Jan 07, 2009 at 10:37 AM

John Power
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #22 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

The Madoff "victims" (and I use that word loosely) were all motivated by a common denominator, greed. People don't book photographers based on that characteristic so the comparison is faulty.

Jan 07, 2009 at 12:26 PM

dmacmillan
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #23 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Are you sure she is the problem?

I went to your web site and I think she may have some valid concerns.
I can't see your photos on this computer. Your prices are low. If your work is nice, comparable to photographers charging more realistic rates, she will sense a disconnect. There are two possible explanations she may come up with. Either you're unaware of the worth of your work and the current market rates, or it really isn't your work, which has been known to happen.

Your website design is not very sophisticated or graphically pleasing. Customers judge you by all aspects of your endeavor, not just your photographs. Anything visual has to be top notch, including graphic design.

The verbage on your website leaves me with an overall negative vibe. You say "no" often, not only with the use of the word, but with your phrasing. I'll cite one example. In your FAQ, you discuss photographing only one wedding a day, but the question and your response are framed negatively. It starts with a negative scenario, that the date of interest is already booked. Then the very question is essentially "will you violate your own policies for me?". You start your response with "Unfortunately, no". The answer continues from essentially a "me" instead of "you" standpoint.

Consider a more neutral question: "How many weddings will you photograph on our wedding day?" Answer: "We are committed to giving you our total attention on your most special day. When you confirm the date with us, you have our time and talent exclusively. We our now free to concentrate all our efforts to providing you with wonderful memories of the day you've long dreamed about!"

Actually most, if not all of the questions on your FAQ should be answered face to face and only if brought up by the potential customer. Read your questions. They seem to be posed by a "doubting Thomas". I can hear potential customers thinking "Yeah, what about that Mr. Photographer!". I also see you raising questions that the average customer wouldn't even think of, for instance the discussion of DVD longevity. Most folks (and a lot of photographers) don't even know it's an issue. You're just planting more doubts and worries.

Here's what I recommend:

Raise your prices. At your price point, you're going to get marginal customers.

Redesign your web site. Make it more appealing in appearance. As part of the redesign, chuck your FAQ page.

Be positive! When I met with my potential brides, I tried to never say "no" or state things negatively. Even basing pricing on time is negative.

Doug

Edited on Jan 07, 2009 at 05:55 PM · View previous versions

Jan 07, 2009 at 03:44 PM

btrippy
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #24 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

Doug finished where I left off.. since I didn't know how to word it.

If I get a quote for a new roof.. 4 vendors say $8000, and one says $1500, the first thing going through my head is, "What's wrong with this picture.. you cant do it for material cost alone.."

I don't know how people charge $500 and pay for the gas in the car. I'm surprised you haven't had more problems like this thus far. I did see some of your images, and they are worth more than a $500 gig. Unless the median income for your target area is $15,000, then you shouldn't be charging that low.. unless we are missing something.

Not trying to sound like a jerk here, but I'd be more inquisitive than she has been thus far. Simply say, I can't hold your date until I get a deposit. If you book someone else, she looses. Otherwise, I'd take her. And I'd recommend going over your finances.. I'm betting you're loosing money at this business.

Jan 07, 2009 at 05:43 PM

Nathan27
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #25 · Ditching a slightly crazy potential client...

I appreciate the website critique and such, and I KNOW I'm charging way too little. That said: this is a cheap market filled with cheap people. I'm in San Antonio, TX. I personally consider it a miracle I've found as many good clients as I have. I'm young and relatively inexperienced compared to most of my competition although that is changing as time goes on. I told myself I was going to raise my rates by 30% or so about 5 weddings ago but with the economy swirling the toilet I've held off. I probably should raise them, but I'm scared to lose what little business there is. I'm aware that my website design is simple but I'm proud that I did every single bit of it myself, I don't have the budget to have it done for me currently although it is certainly a future goal. I'm surprised that anyone can't view the pictures these days, I kinda figured flash was ubiquitous by now. I appreciate the critique on the FAQ page as well, I had never considered the negativity aspect of it. That said, I'm not surprised by your opinion...I hate fluffy feel good BS and obviously that came out. I'd have my wife write it but she's even more cynical than I am

I'll work on changing that, originally the FAQ page was just put in there to help my google rankings by putting in more keywords. I should probably trash that since it's quite obvious I can't run an effective SEO campaign. Besides, from the questions that potential clients e-mail me, it's obvious that NONE of them read that silly page anyway!

My prices used to be about double what they are now and I didn't get a single booking despite dumping just as much into advertising. I halved them and basically filled my schedule for the next 4 months out, which was what I needed. I'm EXTREMELY worried that I'm as high priced as I can get in this market without moving up several notches in terms of advertising. I feel I would need to be on The Knot, in San Antonio Weddings (our big magazine for the area complete with nice website and ads on there too) and be a regular at the bridal shows. I would need a flashy website and MUCH better connections. This would mean multiplying my advertising budget by literally a factor of 10, which I just can't justify...I would have to go into debt just to advertise at that level.

I have been SERIOUSLY slacking off on updating our website and adding a bunch of newer and better pictures to it, I've also been slacking off on blog entries for oh...probably 4 months or so. You guys have inspired me to update the site, raise the prices, and clean house on useless/silly pages. Unfortunately that will have to wait until next week since I'll be fixing one of our two broken down non-running cars for the rest of THIS week. Then we'll only be halfway screwed!

Oh, and to stay somewhat on topic: I handled the lady and I think it will be just fine. I just re-iterated our policy, told her she may find a different photographer who could better meet her needs, and told her to feel free to e-mail me to see if the date was still available closer to when she wanted to meet (a month from now). I decided any response was better than none and to just move on and get past this one.

Jan 08, 2009 at 10:32 AM


FM Forums \| Wedding Photographer \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end