Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

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Archive 2009 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

sejanus
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p.2 #1 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

I remember similar comments as yours Chris when the D60 came out.

People saying the 3mp D30 was fine, and 6mp files were too big.

In a few years when the flagship bodies are at 40-45mp will you still advocate the 10mp bodies?

I'm being slightly tongue in cheek there

At the end of the day I just want to give my customers the best, and a 1Ds3 does this.

Jan 05, 2009 at 01:55 PM

ChrisDM
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p.2 #2 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

sejanus wrote:
I remember similar comments as yours Chris when the D60 came out.

People saying the 3mp D30 was fine, and 6mp files were too big.

In a few years when the flagship bodies are at 40-45mp will you still advocate the 10mp bodies?

I'm being slightly tongue in cheek there

At the end of the day I just want to give my customers the best, and a 1Ds3 does this.

Well, you have to look at native print sizes to answer your question. The native print size of a 3mp sensor is about 4x6", which of course if you're just making 4x6 prints that would be "fine" as the owners of the D30 attempted to justify. But even though 99% of wedding photos do end up as 4x6", some do get printed at 8x10" and larger, so it is easy to justify a larger sensor, like the 10mp sensor being native to an 8x10" print, approximately. Which for me makes it the most effective file size for my wedding photography. On the .1% of images that I'll need to make a print and/or album spread larger than one page, the file will uprez nicely. And for the other 99.9% of the wedding photos I take, I'll have more than enough data in the most efficient format.

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

Jan 05, 2009 at 02:22 PM

adimage
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p.2 #3 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

I agree with you Chris, but....there a but: If you have a 35mm (about 46mm equiv) on the 1D and you see a moment that would require say an 80mm (FF equivalent), you'd have to crop quite heavily - about 1.75x. From the 10mp of the 1D you will be left with about 3mp. From the 1Ds, you will remain with about 6mp. This makes a big difference if you want to print something a bit bigger.

Add to that the fact that at weddings you are most of the time at the camera's limit (high ISO, wide open apertures, longer exposure times). The more pixels can also help here if you downsize the image. See for instance the examples at High ISOs. Even though the per/pixel noise is less in the 1d III than in the 1Ds III, when the image from 1Ds is downsized to 10mp, they are about the same. This could help also when printing towards the resolution limits.

With 1Ds I have virtually any crop from an 8mp 1.6x to a 21mp FF. All of it would be usable for wedding work. So the 21mp would give me for instance a 35-56 mm f/1.4 zoom if I consider the camera to be 8mp (of course, some quality is lost towards the higher crop limit, but you still get very usable images for printing up to 11x14).

What I want to say is that there are times when you have to sacrifice "ideal" framing in favor of capturing a moment. This is where resolution helps.

There are more advantages in owning the 1Ds over the 1D for wedding work + prime lenses than there are disadvantages (bigger files and slower processing). The biggest problem is the price to pay for the extra benefits.

If money was no object, I would not even ask this question and would have gotten the 1Ds. I know that normally I should be the one to know better what is best suited for me, but some other oppinions would help balance the ideas in my head.

Jan 05, 2009 at 02:56 PM

ChrisDM
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p.2 #4 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

adimage wrote:
I agree with you Chris, but....there a but: If you have a 35mm (about 46mm equiv) on the 1D and you see a moment that would require say an 80mm (FF equivalent), you'd have to crop quite heavily - about 1.75x. From the 10mp of the 1D you will be left with about 3mp. From the 1Ds, you will remain with about 6mp. This makes a big difference if you want to print something a bit bigger.

Add to that the fact that at weddings you are most of the time at the camera's limit (high ISO, wide open apertures, longer exposure times). The more pixels can also help here if you downsize the image. See for instance the examples at High ISOs. Even though the per/pixel noise is less in the 1d III than in the 1Ds III, when the image from 1Ds is downsized to 10mp, they are about the same. This could help also when printing towards the resolution limits.

With 1Ds I have virtually any crop from an 8mp 1.6x to a 21mp FF. All of it would be usable for wedding work. So the 21mp would give me for instance a 35-56 mm f/1.4 zoom if I consider the camera to be 8mp (of course, some quality is lost towards the higher crop limit, but you still get very usable images for printing up to 11x14).

What I want to say is that there are times when you have to sacrifice "ideal" framing in favor of capturing a moment. This is where resolution helps.

There are more advantages in owning the 1Ds over the 1D for wedding work + prime lenses than there are disadvantages (bigger files and slower processing). The biggest problem is the price to pay for the extra benefits.

If money was no object, I would not even ask this question and would have gotten the 1Ds. I know that normally I should be the one to know better what is best suited for me, but some other oppinions would help balance the ideas in my head.

Well, it's even more difficult to justify a $4000 premium just because you don't have the right lens attached... I shoot extensively with both a 1Ds3 and a 1D3 and have simply found the 1D3 a more practical and efficient way to work, for weddings... But yes, I've heard the croppability argument before. But once again think in practical terms: Which are the images that are more likely going to be printed really big? The "across the room, got the wrong lens on, grab shots", or the more seriously composed shots? Of course its the latter... Those across the room, got the wrong lens on grab shots aren't going to be gallery wraps over the family fireplace. When will you have enough megapixels to photograph a wedding? 21 megapixels? 60 megapixels? When will the expense and overhead outweigh the ability to crop?

Chris Miller
www.imagineimagery.com

Jan 05, 2009 at 03:24 PM

adimage
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p.2 #5 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

Usually I don't crop that much. Also usually I have the right lens on. I have a photojurnalistic approach to weddings, so being proactive is key to being successful. On the other hand, this means that a higher percentage of "grab shots" gets printed into the album for instance.

I previously had 30D, 40D and 5D. The 5D files were better for me than the 30D ones. I had many times good moments shot with the 30D, but due to the high noise and low quality at per-pixel level, the cropping possibilities were little. On the other hand, I have also printed 24x18" from an 8mp image.

So, resolution is not necessarily the key to the problems. My worry is that if I give up on the 24-70 and rely only on primes, I would have to crop more than I did until now. If I get a 1D and continue using the zoom, there is really no need to crop heavily. The only downside then would be the 2.8 aperture...and limited performance in low-light.

Jan 05, 2009 at 03:44 PM

sejanus
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p.2 #6 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

I think my 1Ds's also give me a leg up over a lot of my competition as well.

Jan 05, 2009 at 10:23 PM

The Grays
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p.2 #7 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

adimage wrote:
Hi all,

I will have to get another body in the following months and I can't really decide which way to go.

My current setup (regarding cameras and bodies) is:
- one 1Ds III, one 1D III
- prime lenses: 24 1.4L, 35 1.4L, 50 1.4, 85 1.2L II, 100 2.8 Macro, 135 2.0L
- zoom lenses: 16-35 2.8L II, 24-70 2.8L, 70-200 4L IS

I am mainly a prime shooter and I only shoot weddings (together with my wife). We need 3 bodies and the third one can be a 1D with keeping all the lenses, or can be a 1Ds. Buying the 1Ds would mean selling the 24-70 and 70-200 zooms.

At weddings the 70-200 is rather useless (due to the f/4). I like the lens, but I have three other very good primes in that range anyway.

Someone may have mentioned this in all the posts, but sharpness on the 24-70L at 2.8 has everything to do with the lens and not the camera. That lens is fairly sharp at 2.8, but nothing like a 100mm macro.

Hope that helps in the decision!

-Zach

The 24-70 is used most of the time at 2.8 (and on the 1Ds it does not really shine in terms of sharpness at that aperture). I'm not a big fan of it because it is heavy an only 2.8. Of couse, the convenience of the zoom range is useful sometimes.

I like the 1Ds because it is full-frame and because of the resolution (this means more croppability and working with primes usually requires more cropping than working with zooms). My ideal setup would be 2 x 1Ds and 1 x 1D. So, would you trade the lenses for getting a better body?

Jan 05, 2009 at 10:52 PM

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p.2 #8 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

Looks like the Canon prices have gone crazy. The 1Ds and 1D prices just went up with about 10-15%. This increases the price gap between them even more. The 1Ds price has increased with about 850 USD here. Since my zoom lenses are not really increasing the value by that much, going for the 1Ds would mean selling the lenses AND adding some (considerable) amount of money.

So I think I'll stick to the 1D and my final configuration will be 1x1Ds and 2x1D.

Jan 06, 2009 at 04:08 PM

Aberdeen Photo
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p.2 #9 · Better camera vs. Zoom lenses

Adrian,

So I think I'll stick to the 1D and my final configuration will be 1x1Ds and 2x1D.

That is a great configuration...

Jan 06, 2009 at 05:15 PM

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