Greetings, I am new here but have been lurking for some time. I am trying to map out a gift of a MF lens with character for my sister who shoots a Canon 20D currently and is likely going to be getting a 5d Mk ii in 2009.
I have narrowed down the hunt to a Rokkor 58mm f/1.2 (stunning shots posted here BTW) or a Leica R 90mm Summicron (not APO...out of price range). I get that these are two different FL lenses, but to my eye, they both provide a certain moodiness and character that sets them apart...a credit to the glass and the artists here.
For the Leica, can ROM versions be mated to Canons or only the CAM versions? Do the ROM versions provide any benefit or detriment in quality compared to the CAMs? Is Leica Germany better than Leitz Canada?
For either lens, one has to stop down the aperture and still manage focus manually to shoot at say, f/8, right? With that little light, which is better to help the eye, a Brightscreen type viewfinder magnifier or a Katzeye split screen focusing screen, or does one need both (or something completely different)?
If I go with the Leica, I was going to get either the Big_IS adapter or one from HappypageHK. Neither currently have Leica adapters listed. Do I just shoot them an e-mail?
On the Rokkor front, I have sniffed around this board and can not find any information on what type of mount and/or what the vendors and watch outs might be there. Any help would be appreciated.
Many thanks for the help on this as well as the openness on gear and tips that I have already found on the various threads here. What a great place!
Cheers,
Jim
Dec 17, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
You have asked a lot of questions and I will try to help as best I can. I am sure others will pipe in as well. First you should realize that the Rokkor needs to be converted, which means it takes some drilling and sanding to get it to work on a Canon camera. If you do a search you should be able to find a thread with a walk through on how to do the conversion that was created by a forum member here (cogitech.) It is a great how to guide and with it the conversion is not that hard, but you probably need to be at least a little handy to do it. If you are willing to do the conversion the Rokkor could be a better choice. The focal length is very good on both the 20D and a 5D or 5DMKII. I currently use mine on the 20D and you have to be patient with the manual focus. The difficulty is that the viewfinder on the 20D is not that big and with the stock screen manual focussing is quite hard. I also plan to get a 5DMKII sometime in the new year. I expect focussing to be much easier on that camera.
In the meantime I am not replacing the focussing screen on my 20D and I will just get buy until I get a 5DMKII. I do have focus confirmation chips, which are of limited use and I am also getting a viewfinder magnifier to help, but I still expect manual focus to be a pain until I get the 5D MKII. You should keep in mind with either lens the viewfinder will be a problem on the 20D. If you think your sister wouldn't be so happy with the hassle then getting a screen more suited to manual focus like the katz-eye or a hoada screen is a good idea.
So far I have pushed the Rokkor, but if you don't see yourself doing the conversion or you can't get one (they can be hard to track down), then I think the Leica 90mm f/2 (non-APO) is a good choice as well. I don't have this lens yet, but it is on my short list of lenses to get. A couple of things about this lens. First, there is only one optical version of it (Leica lenses can have several version, so only having one is nice). The differences in the lenses will be in the type of built in hood and the type of filter threads on the lens and a small difference in weight. Personally, I don't think any of these issues are very important and I plan to get whatever I can find as a good deal. Also, IMO, whether the lens is made in Germany or Canada is not an issue. All the Leica lenses are built well and where they are made does not seem, at least to me, to be a significant issue. Also for the 90 f/2 (non-APO) don't worry about ROM or cams. The lens won't have ROM unless it was added specially after the fact--people sometime do this--for your purposes, however, it won't matter.
With the Leica lens you will need to buy an adapter. I have one from happypageHK and I like it. I would recommend working with Rudolph there and yes you can email him and he will let you know about availability. Often a particular adapter isn't listed on his site, but he can tell you how soon one will become available and I doubt you will have to wait long. With an adapter you can just put the adapter on the lens and then the lens on the camera.
For focusing at f/8 what your sister would need to do is first focus at a wide aperture (often the widest) and then stop down by turning the aperture ring and then she would take the picture. This is a little clumsy at first, but most people get used to the procedure and it is not a major deal. I hope this helps.
Steve Spencer wrote:
This is a little clumsy at first, but most people get used to the procedure and it is not a major deal.
or get nice MF gear, and keep capturing wide open....
(fun part of MF, you can get any prime with fast aperture to slow around f5.6.. I have Nikkor-P 180/2.8, Vivitar 200/3.5, Jupiter & Penatcon 200/4 and Takumar 5.6... so instead for stopping down, pull the lens you need)
Thanks a lot, Steve. I appreciate the time for the reply. I will search again for the Rokkor instructions. Perhaps my search and surf was too encumbered by having Canon in the search field.
I have located a couple Rokkors, but they appear to be radically different designs. One has a finger impression (really odd looking) focus ring, and the other lists itself as Rokkor-X, which I can't make heads or tails of. The only focus confirming Minolta to Canon rings that I saw on Ebay were for MD model lenses, but neither Rokkor that I found indicated anything about being an "MD" model. The joys of cobbling together a thing of beauty.
Thanks again for the help!
Jim
P.S. Sounds like she gets the Leica, and the Rokkor extra effort will be mine, if I can find one...
I think Steve summarized it very well. However, there is one more issue with the Rokkor. Although it will work well with the 20d, the lens will interfere with the mirror of the 5D, and likely the 5DII, if it's focused to infinity. For this reason many will undercorrect the Rokkor during the conversion. Focus can be achieved out to ~30ft before the mirror becomes an issue for most 5D's. Some will modify the 5D's mirror to allow the use of lenses like the Rokkor.
Thanks, Asbalyan. I know that in part (if not completely) the reasoning behind looking at those two lenses is to get ones that function well wide open or at least wide enough to focus cleanly.
I love OOF backgrounds, but my sister is more of a photojournalistic fiber, so I wanted a sense for how rough it would be for her to shoot one of these guys stopped down - f/8 might be an exaggeration - a bit if she wanted to retain a little more DOF.
Thanks, CVickery. I just caught the thread from today about the Rokkor and the Mk ii. Too bad. I was hoping that would not be a big deal in the new model.
Grenache wrote:
Greetings, I am new here but have been lurking for some time. I am trying to map out a gift of a MF lens with character for my sister who shoots a Canon 20D currently and is likely going to be getting a 5d Mk ii in 2009.
.......
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Cheers,
Jim
Are you really really really really sure this is what she wants? Is she using MF lenses at the moment? There are quite a lot of inconveniences using MF lenses.
If she is happy with AF lenses, please get her an AF lens and save her the frustrations of using a MF lens.
I'll reconsider getting her the MF lens if I were you.
yeah... I second that advice. Adapting lenses is a pain in usage... and I hate to say it, but for the most part the differences in lenses becomes secondary with good images, especially with lenses stopped down.
That said, using Leica lenses on my Canon bodies forced me to buy Leica bodies... so I guess it is all good.
On a 20D you will have to add a new screen to be able to focus reliably... with most replacement screens you can focus well until f4, after that you need to focus and then stop down which isn't a huge deal... but the 20D doesn't meter correctly at most apertures so you either have to guess expose (Sunny-16 is fine if you are used to it), use a meter (Sekonic TwinmateII is nice and small) or memorize some adjustment table to apply for each aperture. I don't think the 5D meters correctly either.
I think the non-APO Summicron-R 90 is a lovely lens in all ways... prettier than the APO version in some ways... Summicron and Summilux 50's are very excellent too.
Unless you stumble into a great bargain on the Rokkor, *I* would rather just get the Sigma 50 or 50L... but that is just me... I'm not as wowwed by the Rokkor as others are (hence my recommendation to look at Summicron and Summilux 50's... Super-Taks give a nice distinctive look as well, even if not as sharp when opened up).
"MD" is simply the term used by Minolta to describe their MF mount as used from 1970 until they moved to AF technology. As best I recall they did not use the name Rokkor on any AF lens, so any MF lens bearing that name is certain to be an "MD" mount. It isn't a characteristic or feature of the lens, it's just the description of the mount. In the same way that "R" describes Leica SLR lenses, while "M" describes Leics bayonet mount rangefinder lenses.
mh200, thanks for the suggestions. I personally like the 85L and 50L just fine...except perhaps the prices, but neither lens can nail AF consistently on a non-1 series body, and the MF rings on them are like driving a car with sloppy 1st generation power steering. Ironically, the Canon 200 f/2.8L prime is a glorious lens with very well damped MF rings, and so is the 135 f/2L. I don't know why the shorter focal lengths have sacrificed this feature. I have liked what I have seen in the 35 and 50mm Leicas and Zeiss lenses in terms of output. The look from the Rokkor is definitely distinctive...clearly not something every one would like. I tend to favor it (and/or the style of those who shoot with it who have posted here). My sister though is more of a traditional style and would likely prefer the Leica 90 (or other focal length).
Thanks, Peirs for the clarification on the MD mount for the Rokkor. Data on it had eluded me, even to that fairly simple point.
Thank you for taking the time to supply the link. From the read of it, the conversion is a one-way trip for the lens (I get that), but it also looked like the camera mount itself is swapped too. Am I interpreting that right? If so, is there a way to use a native EOS mount so that the camera can still be readily used with other Canon mount lenses?
As much as I love the Rokkor, if you were to buy her a MF lens which did not require physical alteration such as the Leica she would always have the option to easily sell it and purchase whatever she wanted if she was not happy with it. I don't think the Rokkor is something that a novice should attempt to convert. The mount of the lens is converted with the Rokkor, the camera body mount itself is not altered.
Tariq, totally agree. The Rokkor is now off of her gift list and on to my personal acquisition list. Happily, since I shoot from a cropped sensor body, the nastiest of the conversion process might not be necessary.
Alexandre, thanks for the clarification. I was worried that I would have to essentially dedicate a camera to that lens (or always carry a screw driver and a rocket blaster with me wherever I went.)
