Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Moderated by:

FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 end

Archive 2008 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

kevin2i
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

I posted this on 'the other' site, but curious if this works for other 5dII owners who have the dreaded BDS (black dot syndrome), which could develop into IBS for the new owner . . .

Just picked up my 5dII, and sure enough, I see black dots with default settings.

At iso 400 and iso 6400, with a 50/1.8 and 85/1.2L II. I took a few dozen shots, and they are easily duplicated.

I then turned the settings to "Disable" for highlight tone priority, lighting optimizer and noise reduction.

No black dots.

I have only had the camera for an hour, but hopefully this solves the problem. Any other 5dII owners - please give it a try.

200%
Default settings top iso 6400/400
optimizer/noise reduction disabled iso 6400/400
dng>CS3

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Dec 08, 2008 at 03:07 AM

jcbenner
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #2 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Very interesting. Thanks.

Dec 08, 2008 at 03:35 AM

akclimber
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #3 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Great find!

Cheers!

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:02 AM

sirimiri
Online
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #4 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

One would assume, then, it's not the sensor, but the camera's OS or in-body firmware that causes this "feature" to appear?

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:18 AM

sboerup
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #5 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Good find. All things that will only effect JPGs and NOT RAW (unless you are processing in DPP it might with RAW).

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:26 AM

Gil_W
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

I have not had the BDS and tried to duplicate it for several hours yesterday. I also posted an image showing NO BDS over on the other side where it is pandemonium over this issue. Others also have not been able to duplicate it.

Strange you mention Highlight Tone Priority because I DO NOT use it due to it having a known history (Canon even states this) of increasing noise at high ISO (saw it in my 40D also) and turned it off before I ever took my first shot with the 5D mkII

I only shoot RAW and some sRAW.

Maybe you found the answer!!!!

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:31 AM

jerrykur
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #7 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Great work! I sure hope this is the root cause of the problem.

Edited on Dec 08, 2008 at 05:35 AM · View previous versions

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:35 AM

Ariel Bravy
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #8 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Bravo Kevin! Recognizing that it's a software issue, perhaps this can be fixed via a firmware update.

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:43 AM

Caleb Williams
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Great work. Hopefully Canon can fix this ASAP with a FW update.

Dec 08, 2008 at 05:49 AM

CanAm
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #10 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

I don't understand why anyone thought it was NOT a software issue to begin with.

Great find, Kevin. Irrelevant to me, but good to see that a bunch now have a workaround until Canon rolls out the firmware hotfix.

Dec 08, 2008 at 07:37 AM

pietzcker
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

This is really interesting. I was under the impression that this phenomenon occured with RAW files just the same (I remember seeing a display of raw sensor data in some other thread on photography-on-the-net). And sboerup wrote that the mentioned options (highlight priority, noise reduction and lighting optimizer) only affect JPEGs, not RAW. Now I'm really confused.

I'm still waiting for my 5DII (pre-ordered it from Amazon, and they don't seem to have received enough units the first time around). I'm NOT cancelling my order since I expect this problem to be solvable. The positive buzz clearly supersedes the black dot phenomenon for me

Dec 08, 2008 at 09:27 AM

Emile Gregoire
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

sboerup wrote:
Good find. All things that will only effect JPGs and NOT RAW (unless you are processing in DPP it might with RAW).

...except for highlight tone priority.

Dec 08, 2008 at 11:35 AM

pietzcker
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #13 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Emile Gregoire wrote:
...except for highlight tone priority.

Do you have any source for this? Like a listing of which settings will affect the RAW image, and which settings only affect in-camera JPEG generation? That would help a lot in reducing speculation in the forums...Thanks!

Dec 08, 2008 at 01:53 PM

Will Patterson
Online
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #14 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

sirimiri wrote:
One would assume, then, it's not the sensor, but the camera's OS or in-body firmware that causes this "feature" to appear?

And as I mentioned a few times now, will probably be fixed in the next firmware release.

Dec 08, 2008 at 02:44 PM

CMOS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #15 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Yesterday (with the 5D2) I was shooting indoors in some very uneven lighting and I was severaly blowing highlights at high ISO all over the place. But I had no black dots anywhere.

The common factor with the OP: I had disabled highlight tone priority.
However, lighting optimizer and noise reduction were set for their default settings, which I believe is "enabled" for lighting optimizer and "standard" (or something like that) for noise reduction.

So it might be all in the highlight tone priority, which would make sense and that feature is supposed to help with dynamic range while the vignette fixer and noise are not as closely related.

Dec 08, 2008 at 02:54 PM

Rick Krejci
Online
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #16 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

This has since been debunked...it has nothing to do with HTP, NR or any other post-processing setting (other than HTP's effect on ISO).

It happens in the raw file before any processing, so it is introduced before any image processing.

I've posted examples here showing the effect (and had all the features the OP indicated disabled or turned off)
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30277522

It only seems to happen when there are extreme contrast changes and for small light sources (a few pixels). Larger areas don't seem to induce the black dots. And if surrounding areas are brighter, it's reduced or eliminated. Lower ISO's are not immune, but the odds of the correct setup are reduced. I've clearly seen it at ISO200, but I had to try.

If I didn't do astrophotography, I would worry about this at all, since it's a minor effect visible only at 100% or so.

Rick

Dec 08, 2008 at 03:07 PM

osucowboy8
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #17 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Tag!!! Thanks for posting this. My 5DII is on the UPS truck and I intend to try this out tonight.
J

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:11 PM

RDKirk
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #18 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Do you have any source for this? Like a listing of which settings will affect the RAW image, and which settings only affect in-camera JPEG generation? That would help a lot in reducing speculation in the forums...Thanks!

This is suggested by an absence to the contrary. For the Auto Lighting Optimizer, the manual states: "For RAW images, the contents of the setting in the camera can be applied when processed with Digital Photo Professional (bundled software)."

It does not include that statement for Highlight Tone Priority.

Dec 08, 2008 at 04:51 PM

Emile Gregoire
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #19 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

pietzcker wrote:
Emile Gregoire wrote:
...except for highlight tone priority.

Do you have any source for this? Like a listing of which settings will affect the RAW image, and which settings only affect in-camera JPEG generation? That would help a lot in reducing speculation in the forums...Thanks!

RDKirk already answered part of the question. Highlight Tone Priority happens to be a feature on my 1D3, so I simply know it works on RAW as well. It's simply underexposing by a stop and then bumping it up later during post-processing and it does this for both RAW and JPEG. Besides reading it works this way, I actually noticed it back when Capture One 3.7 hadn't been updated with HTP processing: it simply showed the images underexposed by... exactly 1 stop.

Dec 08, 2008 at 06:04 PM

dnenciu
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #20 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

RDKirk wrote:
Do you have any source for this? Like a listing of which settings will affect the RAW image, and which settings only affect in-camera JPEG generation? That would help a lot in reducing speculation in the forums...Thanks!

This is suggested by an absence to the contrary. For the Auto Lighting Optimizer, the manual states: "For RAW images, the contents of the setting in the camera can be applied when processed with Digital Photo Professional (bundled software)."

It does not include that statement for Highlight Tone Priority.

HTP is the only setting that affects RAW. It underexposes the photo and increases the iso in order to preserve highlights.

Personally I do not understand why I would want to leave it on. It is only useful in photos that have blown highlights. and even those have to be extreme cases not to be able to recover them from the raw file. For all other times all it does it's boost the iso and underexpose introducing noise.

If you shoot only jpeg I understand, for the rest I would personally dial in the underexposure myself if I need it.

Dec 08, 2008 at 06:05 PM

sboerup
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #21 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

As far as I am aware, Highlight Tone Priority is a JPG only setting. You can use it on your RAW files, but only if working within DPP. It's not magic people . . . HTP just uses a special tone curve to process the image, which effectively brings down your highlights a bit.

To test this, take a pic with any camera with HTP ON (in RAW), then take the same pic, no settings changed, with HTP OFF (in RAW) and compare both of them in ACR or LR. There is no difference as far as I'm aware.

So, unless anyone else has info that I haven't read yet, this is what I have learned.

Dec 08, 2008 at 08:26 PM

bka20d
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #22 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

sboerup wrote:
As far as I am aware, Highlight Tone Priority is a JPG only setting. You can use it on your RAW files, but only if working within DPP. It's not magic people . . . HTP just uses a special tone curve to process the image, which effectively brings down your highlights a bit.

To test this, take a pic with any camera with HTP ON (in RAW), then take the same pic, no settings changed, with HTP OFF (in RAW) and compare both of them in ACR or LR. There is no difference as far as I'm aware.

So, unless anyone else has info that I haven't read yet, this is what I have learned.
i don't use it, but if you take your raw shot at iso 100, and then turn highlight tone priority on and take the same shot, the iso defaults automatically to iso 200...i would expect a higher shutter speed to assist in recording better highlight detail but at the expense possibly of some shadow detail....it seems to me that this differential should be reflected in the raw files whether they are opened in dpp or acr.....
as for the optimizer, the raw files can be adjusted in dpp, which suggest that the optimizer is a tag on the raw file which is read in dpp, but not necessarily in thrid party apps....

Dec 08, 2008 at 09:43 PM

Emile Gregoire
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #23 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

Spencer, please reread what I said about opening the 1D3 files in an earlier version of Capture One. All my RAW files were 1 stop underexposed when using HTP. Since an update to the program to cope with this, C1 reads the HTP tag and automatically adds a stop. Just like ACR, LR, DPP, all the rest. Just because you don't notice, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Dec 08, 2008 at 10:02 PM

ayip
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #24 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

I tried some tests last night with all those settings turned off, and I'm still seeing black dots:
5D Mark II Black Dots

Edited on Dec 09, 2008 at 07:10 PM · View previous versions

Dec 09, 2008 at 05:18 PM

akclimber
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #25 · Black Dots? - Try This . . .

ayip wrote:
I tried some tests last night with all those settings turned off, and I'm still seeing black dots:
5D Mark II Black Dots

Ugh. Very disappointing. I'm still waiting for my 5D2 to show up. The only reason I was an early adopter was because I was sure Canon wouldn't, couldn't possibly allow the release of yet another piece of flawed gear. Guess I was wrong. I won't be cancelling my order but I may return it if it produces the black dots and canon doesn't quickly addres the issue.

Cheers!

Dec 09, 2008 at 06:18 PM


FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end