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Archive 2008 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon
  
 
bobbytan
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p.3 #1 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Oh Oh .... we are opening a can of worms ....

JFB318 wrote:
It appears, from other forums I have read, that several folks have found this same problem with their 1DSmkIII as well



Dec 05, 2008 at 06:34 PM
Rubber Soul
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p.3 #2 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


davenfl wrote:
We are going to begin a panic over the inability of the camera to handle terribly blown unusable photos when shots anywhere close to normal exposure are perfect. I agree with Mattbn and Monochrome, truly laughable.




Mattbtn wrote:
Word on the street is that if you actually connect the black dots on these blown out shots, it actually spells out "Learn how to use your camera."




Hey.Underpants wrote:
It's always the cameras fault.




This image is copyrighted by the owner




I started this thread in the interest of having an intelligent discussion on what I felt was a legitimate issue with the 5D Mark II. Nobody has an explanation why these black dots are there, or why they only appear exactly on the right side of blown highlights. But based on these kinds of replies, I can see this thread devolving into something quite nasty. I'm sorry I ever brought it up.






Edited on Dec 05, 2008 at 06:58 PM · View previous versions


Dec 05, 2008 at 06:55 PM
michael49
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p.3 #3 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


I'm sure Canon will fix it, whatever it is.

Dec 05, 2008 at 06:57 PM
anorphirith
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p.3 #4 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Rubber Soul wrote:
davenfl wrote:
We are going to begin a panic over the inability of the camera to handle terribly blown unusable photos when shots anywhere close to normal exposure are perfect. I agree with Mattbn and Monochrome, truly laughable.




Mattbtn wrote:
Word on the street is that if you actually connect the black dots on these blown out shots, it actually spells out "Learn how to use your camera."




Hey.Underpants wrote:
It's always the cameras fault.




This image is copyrighted by the owner




I started this thread in the interest of having an intelligent discussion on what I felt was a legitimate issue with the 5D Mark II. Nobody has an explanation why these black dots are there, or why they only appear exactly on the right side of blown highlights. But based on these kinds of replies, I can see this thread devolving into something quite nasty. I'm sorry I ever brought it up.





I've seen that on cheap canon sensor like the SD1100 IS
it might be the sensor itself
can you do some more test at different ISO to see if it changes ? or maybe shoot a different subject and try to reproduce that ?

Dec 05, 2008 at 07:15 PM
Russ Isabella
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p.3 #5 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Rob:

I'm happy to take you at your word. But what was the nature of the intelligent discussion you were hoping to have? I'm guessing that about 95% of us don't have this camera (it's not even clear from your post that you have this camera), so what are we supposed to discuss? Why it's happening? First I'd like to have a better idea of what's happening, to whom, when and how often. There are people on the dp thread vowing to return their 5DII's and they haven't even received them yet! It's lunacy without a bit more data, and who's going to provide that?

Dec 05, 2008 at 08:19 PM
Sam tran
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p.3 #6 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Question is, why didn't Canon catch this before release?
Because there are thousand of "Beta" testers, who are willing to spend big money in order to be the first one who have it, then soon inform Canon of the new found "feature". I've watied for 2+ yrs before I pick-up my 5D, with all (I hoped) of the "features" has been found & fixed - oh yeah, with almost half the price from the
release date too.

However, thanks for making my decision of waiting to buy the 5D2 more clear now.

Sam

Dec 05, 2008 at 08:37 PM
digitalbug30d
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p.3 #7 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


would be nice to have the full exif on this pic...what bothers me about this kinda testing is its biased in a negative way your intent is to set up the camera in a way to give a negative result to spread it around as a defect...I dont shoot nite scenes at ISO3200 why? you ask
NOISE duh...ISO of 100 and a longer exposure time will yield better results always...
just like with film..

Dec 05, 2008 at 08:51 PM
The Image
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p.3 #8 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Hi, im looking at this hi res photo you posted, but I dont see any black dots, not even in the lower left corner you mentioned, I see color noise, red, purple ect but im not seeing black dots, can you help me to see what your seeing.

Dec 05, 2008 at 09:09 PM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #9 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Doesn't bother me much. It'll probably be fixed by a firmware update.


You guys really are trying your best to hate this camera, aren't you?

Dec 05, 2008 at 09:16 PM
Stunnaz
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p.3 #10 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


I shot some night scenes with my 5D2 last night at ISO25600... I'm looking over my pictures carefully right now and don't see any black dots. I'll try to take some over-exposed shots tonight and see what I find.

Dec 05, 2008 at 09:17 PM
Conner999
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p.3 #11 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


If only such were the case. Unfortunately, on many forums, and sadly FM is becoming one of them, no well-intentioned deed goes unpunished these days.

If you find the issue untenable (who cares what anyone else thinks - it's your money), best just to quietly return/exchange the camera, sit back and see how other early adopters fair.

To a fanboy the photo universe is exactly one person wide - if they don't have the issue, no one does.

That said, should they be unfortunate enough to collect a bad copy of X, then the crisis is nothing short of earth-shattering in proportion; requiring of mass recalls (), same day repair turn-around service, compensation for pain & suffering or, gasp, the dreaded heretical "switch".

If you're at all concerned, sit back, save your $$, pop some popcorn and wait and see what happens. If what made you uncomfortable turns out to be a prevalent issue, it won't be long before the 'net is awash in righteous indignation and cries of "how could we have known..", etc., etc.

If not, you get to the option of buying another production-lot copy (or another camera) at a lower price x weeks/months hence.

---
I started this thread in the interest of having an intelligent discussion on what I felt was a legitimate issue with the 5D Mark II. Nobody has an explanation why these black dots are there, or why they only appear exactly on the right side of blown highlights. But based on these kinds of replies, I can see this thread devolving into something quite nasty. I'm sorry I ever brought it up.







Dec 05, 2008 at 09:17 PM
Sam N
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p.3 #12 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


I've heard people say this is due to raw conversion, oversharpening, lenses, high ISO, etc. It's pretty clear that none of these are the case. It's not CA-related if it shows up on the right side at any part of the frame. It's not a high-ISO-only issue because some of the samples were at ISO200 (though it does show up more at high ISOs... probably because it's easier to blow out highlights). I think it's got something to do with the sensor or the A/D conversion or maybe (hopefully) the way the data is being recorded in the raw file.

Anyway I think it's a valid topic to discuss. Other cameras don't exhibit this behavior and the 5D2 does. It's not a very big deal to me, but I'd still like to know more about why and under what conditions it's occurring.

Dec 05, 2008 at 09:27 PM
ward1066
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p.3 #13 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Exif



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Dec 05, 2008 at 09:40 PM
 



apdieb
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p.3 #14 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Thanks for the EXIF... But on a separate topic.. CHECK YOUR EMAIL.. 580 badboys waiting.

Dec 05, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #15 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Aaa, the flash did not fire, that must be it!

Dec 05, 2008 at 10:11 PM
signet35
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p.3 #16 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


One evening a couple nights ago, I was standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine, holding my 5DMII, when a well dressed, but obviously tipsy Japanese gentleman wearing a tie with the Canon logo stumbled out of a bar and came up to me, crying and repeating "Back Lots!" "Back Lots!" (or so I thought)

So I directed him to the Universal Studios theme park...



Dec 05, 2008 at 10:15 PM
skibum5
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p.3 #17 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Rubber Soul wrote:
jcbenner wrote:
Looks like it might be a Raw processing issue.



It's not a RAW processing issue. As I wrote in the original message, the black dots appear in the RAW data itself. There's a link up there showing the black dots in the actual RAW file before any demosaic process is even done.

I remember Chuck Westfall saying that Canon altered the way signal readouts are done in the 5Dmk2 sensor (compared to the 1Dsmk3 sensor). Perhaps this black dot phenomenon is a unforeseen side effect of that. I really hope this is something that could be fixed in a simple firmware update, as some people have already implied. Otherwise if it's a hardware problem, then Canon will have another embarrassing 1Dmk3 fiasco in their hands. Two major blunders in two years may be enough to put the final nail in their coffin, as far as the Canon's quest for redemption is concerned.




wow, it is getting crazy

the 24-105L flare recall
the 70-300 IS portrait blur due to barrel sag and poor construction recall
the (apparently) major stop down focus shift on the 50 1.2L
the MkIII AF recall
I feel like I am forgetting one
and i'm suspicious that very bright light can trick the 40D AF

hopefully it is just on a few copies
i've haven't seen it yet but i havent taken all that many shots yet an dnot of a very varied array either

only thing i see so far is that the read noise on the upper right corner of mine seems tobe a lot worse than on any other part of the frame and gets lots of red
hopefully it wont show up with regualr photography and only in black frame testing


Dec 05, 2008 at 10:50 PM
nathanlake
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p.3 #18 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


So, does this mean after the fix the black dots will be on the box rather than in the picture?

Dec 05, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Photon
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p.3 #19 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


signet35 wrote:
One evening a couple nights ago, I was standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine, holding my 5DMII, when a well dressed, but obviously tipsy Japanese gentleman wearing a tie with the Canon logo stumbled out of a bar and came up to me, crying and repeating "Back Lots!" "Back Lots!" (or so I thought)

So I directed him to the Universal Studios theme park...



Did you consider that he might have needed to get to Big Lots to buy a few thousand black dot 5DMkII that were not supposed to be released before January?

Dec 05, 2008 at 11:25 PM
CMOS
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p.3 #20 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


Will Patterson wrote:
Doesn't bother me much. It'll probably be fixed by a firmware update.


You guys really are trying your best to hate this camera, aren't you?


Firmware can't fix everything. The 50 1.2L focus issues weren't correctable in firmware, and neither were the focus issues in the 1D3 fixable completely in firmware.

But one would still hope for that.

Dec 05, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #21 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


CMOS wrote:
Will Patterson wrote:
Doesn't bother me much. It'll probably be fixed by a firmware update.


You guys really are trying your best to hate this camera, aren't you?


Firmware can't fix everything. The 50 1.2L focus issues weren't correctable in firmware, and neither were the focus issues in the 1D3 fixable completely in firmware.

But one would still hope for that.



Those are mechanical issues, this is more software related (atleast that's what I think). Especially if this happened with the old 1D's and it was corrected in firmware like someone mentioned.


Dec 06, 2008 at 01:05 AM
walter23
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p.3 #22 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


BennyR wrote:
Question is, why didn't Canon catch this before release?


Maybe Canon erroneously assumed its users were going to avoid overblowing things by 9 stops

I'm mostly kidding, I can see how this could be very problematic (as in the example image of the night-time skyline).


Dec 06, 2008 at 01:12 AM
Sam N
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p.3 #23 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


It doesn't look like there was a 1DII firmware update that fixed anything like this:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dm2/eos1dmk2_firmware-e.html

There's something for the 1DsII about "horizontal line noise" when a custom function for silent shooting is enabled, but I don't think that's similar to this problem either:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dsm2/eos1dsmk2_firmware-e.html

Same thing goes for all the other 1D models.

Dec 06, 2008 at 01:13 AM
Caleb Williams
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p.3 #24 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


bobbytan wrote:
God damn .... the 5D II must be the worst DSLR in history .... it's terribly over-exposed and noisy as hell. I think you should return it for those reasons. Either that or we should start a thread on "How Not to Take a Picture".


Don't worry, there's hope for this picture.

Original


This image is copyrighted by the owner




100% crop


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Fix it in ACR 4.6


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Cut out the noise


This image is copyrighted by the owner




And boom:


This image is copyrighted by the owner





Dec 06, 2008 at 01:43 AM
bobbytan
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p.3 #25 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon


You cleaned it up nicely, but the color balance is still off.


Caleb Williams wrote:

Don't worry, there's hope for this picture.


Dec 06, 2008 at 02:21 AM




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