Register · Search · Software · Join Upload & Sell · Hosting

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell   
Search Used
1   2  
3
   end
  

Archive 2008 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)
  
 
spink
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


BenV wrote:
so if i want to make a million a year, i just ned to charge $100,000 per weddng and do 10 weddings? ha! im rich!


as long as your business expenses are 0.


Nov 27, 2008 at 06:20 AM
paulhodson
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #2 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Seems to me if you use the model taking a realistic figure for "personal expenses + business expenses" and also a realistic figure for "# of probable bookings" to calculate your base pricing and that means the amount you need to charge as a minimum exceeds the demographic/talent in your situation - you need to take up a different profession.

If not - then you can increase your prices to a rate commensurate with your demography and skill and see how comfortable a life you can lead.

Nov 27, 2008 at 07:20 AM
Sergio Mottola
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #3 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


i want to do 30 weddings at 4k each. i dont care where that puts me on my needs/expenses. that is a figure that would make me happy and keep me busy -- the important things in life.

Nov 27, 2008 at 10:06 AM
paulhodson
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #4 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Sergio Mottola wrote:
i want to do 30 weddings at 4k each. i dont care where that puts me on my needs/expenses. that is a figure that would make me happy and keep me busy -- the important things in life.


I doubt it is - but if it were below your needs/expenses - it wouldn't make you happy! (assuming no other income)

Nov 27, 2008 at 10:13 AM
ksmahgrts
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


$120,000 is great serg... unless you have $120,003 dollars in stuff you want to buy

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:48 PM
mcarr
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #6 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
Here's a real business secret for you:

Your customers really are the ones who determine your pricing, you only offer up your suggested asking prices.

Customers could care less about your desired profit, tax situation, other jobs, expenses, etc. They just want to get a quality product at a good price.

This reminds me of a thread a few weeks ago from a newer shooter (Segio ?) who was having trouble booking his weddings at his pricing, and some suggested that he stick to his pricing and "have faith".

Yes, let's all just calculate our desired profits, sit back, and have faith. The road to success is revealed, close all the business schools.


This is spot on. This is the research that should be done FIRST. What price will the market bear? You want to charge $5,000 a wedding, but guess what, everyone else in town is charging $2,500. Is your product twice as good as everyone else's?? More importantly, will enough clients agree with you and pony up the extra dough? After you've had this little reality check, THEN you calculate your what your expenses/income are going to be, from that number you will determine how many weddings you'll have to do in a given year. You don't start with, "I want to make $100k on 20 weddings...".


Nov 27, 2008 at 03:21 PM
ContagiousIdea
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Yikes Ksmahgrts, looks like your taking some serious flak for a semi-serious post of an example of a beginning price point, or a starting point on a business plan that apparently was too simple for some people

Rock on I say Rock On!

Nov 27, 2008 at 03:35 PM
ContagiousIdea
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
Wow .. I see the proponents of the “secret recipe” pricing model are a little testy these days, probably due to their slowing business and lower incomes. Understandable.

I see they are about as creative with name calling as they are in their business models .. “crackhead, douche”. Very classy.



And your sore you got beat on the intranets... Waaaaaa care to cry some more?

Sometimes the internet provides lots and lots of amusement!

ROTFL


Nov 27, 2008 at 03:39 PM
ksmahgrts
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #9 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


some prefer to be reactive. i prefer to be proactive. leader v. follower. shepherd v. sheep. i'll always choose the option where i take the lead in setting and achieving my goals. i'm a pragmatist. i dream big but execute with my feet firmly planted on the ground.



i love me some rutabaga.
i've grown rutabaga in my great aunt alberta's backyard since i was six.
all my friends and family say my rutabaga is top notch.
sure my job as a flowbee repairman pays the bills.
but damnit, i want to be a rutabaga farmer.
i need $X to support myself and my 4 guinea pigs and to expand berta's backyard garden into a true sustainable farm.
therefore, i need to be an $X dollar-making rutagaba farmer.
gee. that part was simple. (SEE POST #1 OF THIS BIG HONKIN' THREAD)

ok so NOW let's plan this sucker and make my rutabaga farming dream a reality.
does that include checking out all the other produce loving merchants in town? you betcha.
does that include hanging out where all the hippest rutabaga eating folks are eating rutabaga? indeed.
does that include an adult ed course in alternate bohemian organic rutabaga smoking? hells yes.
does that include exploring the dirty underbelly of black market rutabaga exchange? damn right.
does that include a million other details that aren't covered in a simple thread about a pricing formula? duh.

mike- you're the only one talking about 'faith'. i'm talking reality. objectives and tactics. what do i need/what do i want and what am i willing to do to to get what i need/want. and ease up on the hostility, just as i suggested others to do toward you. there's no need for douchebaggery on anyone's part.

mcarr - research is done first, last, and in between. i say it's foolish to embark on any venture without first knowing where you stand in life financially. who cares what the market is doing unless i first know what it will take to be worth my while to be in said market?


and one last time for the reading impaired... i never suggested that you pick a price and run out the door to hang your shingle. this thread is about a proactive, goal-oriented, positive and successful method for arriving at a price point.

man, i love killing time in my PJs at noon waiting for some yummy turkey.

Nov 27, 2008 at 04:53 PM
 



BrianO
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #10 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


ksmahgrts wrote:...this thread is about a proactive, goal-oriented, positive and successful method for arriving at a price point.

I think this is what's confusing some of the reading impaired. They seem to think that the formula you gave in the first post is what you use -- without further input -- to set your price.

But as you pointed out, and as I as well as others further explained, the formula is flexible. Once you have the starting numbers, you then adjust them for factors like CMA (competitive market analysis), COB (costs of doing business), tax rates, etc.

As you said:

ksmahgrts wrote:...you follow all the basics then adjust to taste (circumstance)

If your competition charges less than the formula indicates, then you adjust the numbers in the formula: you may have to do more weddings at lower prices, or reduce your COB, or lower you expectations of income -- or any combination thereof.

The key point that a few seem to be missing is that the formula is a tool for doing exactly these kinds of "What if..." scenarios.

Okay, I'll admit that I don't have a Harvard MBA; but I have taken college-level courses in bookkeeping, accounting, small business administration, etc. Somewhat more than "business school kindergarten."

I've also been the office manager of a construction company, and an administrative assistant at a financial counsel firm that only delt with clients with net worths of over $1M (except for one portfolio that was open to referred clients who were investing at least $100k).

So I'm not exactly a neophyte when it comes to financial analysis. If used as described, ksmahgrts' not-so-secret "secret" can serve as a useful tool for those starting, or thinking about starting, a service business.


Nov 27, 2008 at 08:25 PM
RbrtPtikLeoSen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #11 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
my initial post was not about any of that stuff. it was about a method for arriving at a jumping off point for pricing. a completely valid and successful method.



Rubbage .. give me your zip code and portfolio and I'll tell you what your pricing should be. And so can every couple who look at you.

Your fatal flaw is which end of the tube you approach pricing from .. you approach from the "how much do I want to make" end, which will give you a price point, but not very often a competitive one. Most shooters use this approach because it's so easy, and usually results in a pricing which is (much) too high for their market. Which is why most wedding photographers fail as a business. Too lazy to even take off their rose-colored glasses.

Better to look at current economic conditions, local demographics, local wedding stats, number of shooters in your area, their pricing, local marketing costs & avenues, etc.


An effective salesmen informs the consumer without pressure to buy, and convinces them of their worth. Thus, the effective business savvy photographer creates his own market, by convincing the consumers around him that he is in fact, worth 5 times more than the dude next door who produces images of near or equal quality. Witness this for yourself, and you will no longer believe that ones pricing structure should be based on demographics/consumer spending habits.

My instructor is a portrait photographer who works out of Massachusetts, in his area the demographic literally sucks. The second highest charging photographer in his immediate area charges $40 for an 8x10 print after initial session fees, and doesn't get nearly as much traffic as my instructor who charges $200 for that same 8x10, does.

Why can he charge so much yet still attract so much clientele in a soso market? Because he's spent 20 years convincing everyone around him that he's worth it, that his prices are justified, that your going to get something not only timeless, but priceless for your money, and hell, it's an enticing proposition.

I also noticed that you mentioned looking into local wedding stats, etc. I will share with you one very good piece of advice that this instructor gave me... As photographers our competition is not our fellow photographers, but rather vendors of other leisure consumables. There are always people with extra money laying around, and they like to spend it, because it makes them feel good. What can they spend it on? Vacations, jewelry, a new car maybe? Thus, as photographers our real competition is the travel agent, the jeweler, and the car salesmen. Convince people why they should spend their money with you, and $$$ will start flowing. While your at it, do favors for those travel agents, jewelers, and cars salesmen, in trade for advertisement in their venues... They don't see you as their competition, which is an awesome opportunity to bring their potential dollars, your way.




Nov 27, 2008 at 09:31 PM
prof_fate
Offline
Dedicated FM
Account Locked
p.3 #12 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


charge the market rate in your area.
If you're not good enough, confident enough or able to offer products comparable to the competition then perhaps you're not ready to be charging for your efforts.

If you don't (as in can't or are not willing) to charge market rates then odds are you will not stay in business, long term.

The problem now is going to get 100 times worse. The economy is going to put pressure on brides to cut costs. It's going to entice unemployed and underemployed folks to give weddings a try. Demand meet supply!

In a couple of years this will pass as future brides learn of the disasters of their siters, friends and cousins that went cheap and got crap photos, no editing, no albums - if they got anything at all.

I've already talked to folks where a coworker got screwed, or they were in a wedding and 2 years later the photographer took a powder with the photos.

McDonalds charges less than Chili's for a hamburger and fries, but you still get a full meal you can eat and enjoy at either place. The way you are treated is different. The quality of the ingredients is different. The atmosphere is different. So the same holds true for wedding photography - not everyone is an artist and not every bride wants a 7 course gourmet meal version of weddng photography. But a restaurant can no more make a profit selling 50 cent hamburgers and nothing than can a photog make a living selling $500 weddings.

Nov 27, 2008 at 09:38 PM
BrianO
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #13 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


prof_fate wrote: charge the market rate in your area.

...McDonalds charges less than Chili's for a hamburger and fries, but you still get a full meal you can eat and enjoy at either place.


The problem with "charging market rate" is that it leads to a mass of mediocrity. There may be a McDonald's in every neighborhood, but is that really what we want? From time to time, I want a Chili's...or better yet, a non-chain gourmet restaurant that offers exceptional service; and I'm willing to pay for it.

A falling tide lowers all boats, and if we all charge "market rate" then that rate is going to start falling and take us all with it. You can't operate a Chili's if you're charging McDonald's prices; you'll run out of operating capital in short order, or end up offering McDonald's-level products and service under another name.

We need to be aware of what others in our area are charging, of course, but that shouldn't be the sole factor we consider in our pricing.

McPhoto Studios have their place, but I don't want to work in one.


Nov 27, 2008 at 10:12 PM
57suzi
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #14 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


BrianO wrote:
prof_fate wrote: charge the market rate in your area.

...McDonalds charges less than Chili's for a hamburger and fries, but you still get a full meal you can eat and enjoy at either place.


The problem with "charging market rate" is that it leads to a mass of mediocrity. There may be a McDonald's in every neighborhood, but is that really what we want? From time to time, I want a Chili's...or better yet, a non-chain gourmet restaurant that offers exceptional service; and I'm willing to pay for it.

A falling tide lowers all boats, and if we all charge "market rate" then that rate is going to start falling and take us all with it. You can't operate a Chili's if you're charging McDonald's prices; you'll run out of operating capital in short order, or end up offering McDonald's-level products and service under another name.

We need to be aware of what others in our area are charging, of course, but that shouldn't be the sole factor we consider in our pricing.

McPhoto Studios have their place, but I don't want to work in one.


Brian, I respectfully disagree, and here is why.
Photographer Sammel (Germ) McGaberay may start at market rate, but he's good, very good. So as his calendar fills up, he ups his prices, maybe sells only the higher end packages. Rather than chasing the clients away, this actually adds to his cache'. Now brides are booking 2 years ahead, or changing their wedding date so they can book him. This brings the whole industry UP. As the poster above pointed out, perceived value is the big thing, and that is something every pro at every point on the spectrum can improve or harm for himself.
It's just business, ole' supply and demand. Newbies and mediocre shooters at one end, and the upper echelon on the other, and everyone falling somewhere in there.



Nov 27, 2008 at 10:59 PM
Italo Campilii
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #15 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Finally someone said it!!

Nov 28, 2008 at 12:41 AM
BrianO
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #16 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


57suzi wrote:...Brian, I respectfully disagree, and here is why.
Photographer Sammel (Germ) McGaberay may start at market rate, but he's good, very good. So as his calendar fills up, he ups his prices, maybe sells only the higher end packages.


So you don't disagree with me then.

You are saying don't charge market rate (except maybe to start out), which is what I also encourage.

Wedding photography should be viewed as a valauble service, and "low balling" or "commoditizing" our services does no one any good in the long run.

I don't consider myself a great artist, as some here on FM are, but I'm at least a craftsman a best or a good technician at worst -- not "unskilled labor" -- so my products and services should be priced to reflect that.

Those who are great artists should be compensated even more for their skills and vision. So saying "charge market rate" -- as if everyone should be following a single price sheet -- is a huge mistake.


Nov 28, 2008 at 03:20 AM
Ivo Kwee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #17 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


People with other jobs work 300 days a year, you think you do 20 weddings and that's it?

Nov 28, 2008 at 06:42 PM
BrianO
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #18 · mystical $$ secrets revealed. (no, really)


Ivo Kwee wrote:
People with other jobs work 300 days a year...


I work five days per week, 52 weeks per year, for 260 days; minus three weeks' vacation and five holidays; for a total of 240 days of work.
I also get paid sick time, time-and-a-half for overtime, and medical and dental benefits.

That's why I'm in no hurry to be self employed.


Nov 29, 2008 at 05:42 AM
1   2  
3
   end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1   2  
3
   end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

  Username   Password  
Lost your password?