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Archive 2008 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!
  
 
pawlowski6132
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p.1 #1 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


So, just got some Canon Speedlights this week and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. What kind of light would improve these images?

thanx much in advance






  Canon EOS 40D    50 mm    f/4.5    1/40 sec    100 ISO    0.0 EV  








  Canon EOS 40D    50 mm    f/3.2    1/125 sec    100 ISO    0.0 EV  








  Canon EOS 40D    50 mm    f/3.2    1/125 sec    100 ISO    0.0 EV  



Nov 22, 2008 at 09:24 PM
pilles
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p.1 #2 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


What specifically do you not like about these? I like'em.

Nov 22, 2008 at 09:35 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #3 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


It would be helpful to know which models and how you used them (mode, positions relative to the face, group settings, etc.)

Based on what you posted it appears your key light is positioned well and the files are well exposed, but there is not much fill. The most common mistake made with ETTL ratios is not realizing the Master always defaults to Group A, requiring the off camera slave to be set to group B.

You may find my Canon flash tutorials of helpful. Just click the WWW button below and look in the Canon flash section.

Chuck

Nov 22, 2008 at 09:37 PM
freetime101
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p.1 #4 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


A reflector such as bit of white card etc held camera left would reflect a bit of light back into those shadows, a cleverly angled mirror behind the subject could reflect some light back as a hairlight, also did you use any kind of diffusion on the light? If not (it doesnt look like you did on the first) then an umbrella or softbox will soften the light. Most of these solutions can be homemade quite cheaply.

See http://www.strobist.com for more advice

Nov 22, 2008 at 09:40 PM
pawlowski6132
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p.1 #5 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


pilles wrote:
What specifically do you not like about these? I like'em.


I can't say specifically. It's just a feeling I get when I see 'em. I see so many great portraits here in this forum. I'm trying hard to get there.

Nov 22, 2008 at 09:55 PM
pawlowski6132
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p.1 #6 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


cgardner wrote:
It would be helpful to know which models and how you used them (mode, positions relative to the face, group settings, etc.)

Based on what you posted it appears your key light is positioned well and the files are well exposed, but there is not much fill. The most common mistake made with ETTL ratios is not realizing the Master always defaults to Group A, requiring the off camera slave to be set to group B.

You may find my Canon flash tutorials of helpful. Just click the WWW button below and look in the Canon flash section.

Chuck


Hi Chuck, thanx for your time.

I'm using two 580ex and one 430ex. I have a 580ex mounted on the camera, one to my right on a stand and the 430ex on the floor to light the background. I do have the 580ex to my right on Group B used a 1:4 ratio which may have lowered the fill too much.

Nov 22, 2008 at 09:58 PM
pawlowski6132
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p.1 #7 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


freetime101 wrote:
A reflector such as bit of white card etc held camera left would reflect a bit of light back into those shadows, a cleverly angled mirror behind the subject could reflect some light back as a hairlight, also did you use any kind of diffusion on the light? If not (it doesnt look like you did on the first) then an umbrella or softbox will soften the light. Most of these solutions can be homemade quite cheaply.

See http://www.strobist.com for more advice


Hi, I was not using any diffusion on the first image and saw the same harshness you did. I ended up making a home made giant softbox by hanging a piece of fabric from the ceiling in front of my second flash.

What do you think of using a flash bracket to raise the fill light, changing the A:B ratio (1:3) and diffusing the fill?









  S1     6 mm    f/3.0    1/60 sec    200 ISO    0.0 EV  








  S1     6 mm    f/3.0    1/60 sec    200 ISO    0.0 EV  








  S1     6 mm    f/3.0    1/60 sec    200 ISO    0.0 EV  



Edited on Nov 22, 2008 at 10:17 PM · View previous versions


Nov 22, 2008 at 10:01 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #8 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


What group is the 430ex in? If used as background light it is best to put in Group C.

C is metered separately from A:B in ETTL. A and B are pre-flashed and set, then C in set (at FEC = 0) to match the A:B foreground. Then you adjust the FEC of C group up or down relative to the A:B foreground.

If you had set the 430ex to group B that would explain the dark shadows because the metering would be seeing the light off the back wall as part of the fill.

Best to master the use of two flashes as Fill / Key using A:B before trying to add a third into the mix...


Nov 22, 2008 at 10:06 PM
pawlowski6132
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p.1 #9 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


Oh, and picture two is ONLY using one 580EX off camera with a homemade snoot and no ambient lighting.

Nov 22, 2008 at 10:06 PM
 



pawlowski6132
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p.1 #10 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


cgardner wrote:
What group is the 430ex in? If used as background light it is best to put in Group C.

C is metered separately from A:B in ETTL. A and B are pre-flashed and set, then C in set (at FEC = 0) to match the A:B foreground. Then you adjust the FEC of C group up or down relative to the A:B foreground.

If you had set the 430ex to group B that would explain the dark shadows because the metering would be seeing the light off the back wall as part of the fill.

Best to master the use of two flashes as Fill / Key using A:B before trying to add a third into the mix...


I believe I did have the 430ex in Group C. Or, at least I meant to - still trying to figure out the mechanics of the flash.

I did have the FEC set to +1 1/3 so, that could have been the problem too right?

Nov 22, 2008 at 10:10 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #11 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


Since fill on camera creates few if any shadows you will see in landscape mode there is no compelling need to diffuse it: no shadows, no need to make their edges fuzzy. But when you switch to portrait mode you'll want fill up over the camera. A camera-flip bracket is the ideal solution.

As you'll note from the tutorials I get adequate diffusion from DIY diffusers made from 9 x 12 sheets of "Fun Foam". Materials are not critical: you can make something similar in about 2 min with a stapler and a sheet of photo paper.

I'd suggest you set up two flashes and shoot a series running through the entire range of ratios from 8:1 to 1:8 on the same subject to help visualize what the A:B numbers actually produce. Then you can determine which one is appropriate for different ages / genders of your subjects. It's the amount of fill, not how fuzzy the edges of the shadows are which creates the illusion of "softness". Women and kids are flattered more by light open shadows. As the shadows get darker the light seems "harder" perceptually making them more appropriate for men, older boys or young boys who you want to look mature.




Nov 22, 2008 at 10:27 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #12 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


pawlowski6132 wrote:

I believe I did have the 430ex in Group C. Or, at least I meant to - still trying to figure out the mechanics of the flash.

I did have the FEC set to +1 1/3 so, that could have been the problem too right?


If the display shows Ratio ON A:B C then C is active.

There are two different FECs in play when using C, which is why I suggest you skip the third flash until you master two.

The FEC you set on the camera regulates the over all exposure of all groups up and down. Your exposure of the highlights looks pretty good, so + 1-1/3 is what you need. That's what I use as a starting baseline for FEC with my diffusers.

There is also a different form of FEC for group C. When you access Group C via to adjust it, the adjustment is in f/stops relative to the default match up to A:B. So if you take a test shot and decide you want the background -2/3 stops darker relative to the foreground you would navigate using the "zoom" button until "ratio" and "C" are blinking then turn the wheel until -1/3 is displayed (i.e. set C 1/3 less than the default match to A:B).




Nov 22, 2008 at 10:38 PM
alanwarp
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p.1 #13 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


I would recommend strobist.com approach, quickest way to get some results and not spend tons of time blowing your mind with ETTL setup.

What does that mean, basically, I'd turn your on-camera 580 off or bounce off a wall or ceiling at low power, just use it as transmitter, set other two flashes to slave and manual, maybe 1/8th to 1/32th power to start. Set camera to manual, you can use up to 1/250 for 40D and adjust aperture and flash strength to suit, start with just one key flash, then maybe add the other for fill. Note, once you have the ratios right for the flashes, you can just use the aperture to adjust flash strength. You can use reflectors (cheap foam core or paper) to fill in shadows. Then bring your shutter speed down if you want to incorperate ambient, but I would try to keep most ambient out for now, makes white balance easier.

Once you get a feel for how that works, then move on to full ETTL if you wish.

I'm not an expert, and barely an amateur, but for me that was the easiest way to start, full manual. You can also ignore everything I've said if you want to go the full ETTL way.

On another note, the diffused flash may look a little better raised up a bit more and angled down and pulled back a little more from the sheet.

Hope that helps,
Alan

Nov 22, 2008 at 11:51 PM
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p.1 #14 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


BAH! I hate Canon ETTL. I was just at a concert/ball/party tonight and it was just crazy how inconsistant it is. The Nikon system which I used to use was almost fool proof in comparision.

Regarding your situation, if you are in a studio setting I would recommend you not using ETTL at all and controlling your flashes in full manual. This helps in consistancy and you won't have to second guess the yourself if the flash's ETTL messes things up.


Nov 23, 2008 at 04:26 AM
crockett
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p.1 #15 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


Hmm...I'm on the fence on some of this advice. All, good mind you, but so complex.

What not just follow the light, image playback and histo. If I came up with image one on my playback, here is what I'd be thinking...keeping in mind there is no right or wrong way.

-Shadow on the nose is too perpendicular to the nose line for my taste
Possible solution: Ok, I'll try raising my key light a bit higher

-The shadows seem a little dark and/or hard.
Possible solution: Easiest thing to change. I'll try bumping up my fill a bit (in your case try 1:3). Or if you'd rather try softening the light, move the model closer to the softbox or the softbox closer to the model. Again, this is just what "I'm" thinking, perhaps your o.k. with the light ratio you acheived.

-The BG is too bright and doesn't have that classic soft center hotspot with falloff.
Possible solution: Turn the power down on the BG light and snoot or gobo it.

I do agree that this is intuitively easier using all manual flash, but if you take the time to sit down and read through the entire ETTL ratio section on Chuck's site, it's really not that hard. And also, I totally disagree about ETTL being inconsistant (however, in all fairness I haven't ever used the Nikkon system). I'm still amazed how often it just bangs out perfect lighting. I'll be standing 30' (70-200) from a senior with my assistant holding a shoot thru umbrella, press the shutter and bang, spot on! The master flash sent a series of flashes to slave to tell it what it was about to do, then had the slave fire a test flash, figured it all out and then did it for real in less than 1/250th of second, amazing!. No running back forth between flashes, adjusting the power, no yelling to the assistant power up, power down, etc.

In your case, where you have "understanding" models, I'd make just one change at a time, snap and review. This way you can see exactly what your change did.

Also, it's not as exciting but you can always do all this stuff without a model. Just use a doll head on a stick or something. Almost at least once a week I grab my son's large (12" long) play car and shoot it, moving and adjusting my flash(s) all over and closely studying my playback screen. My wife always says the same thing "What the hell are doing?"

Just seeing how things look as I move light around it......



Nov 23, 2008 at 06:33 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #16 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


For many it seems their first experience with external flash is to put one in the hot shoe in ETTL mode. Their expectation is that it will be just like shooting with ambient lighting. When they find it is not that simple they blame the equipment and abandon ETTL for the more fool-proof manual method instead of trying to understand the equipment. But if you bought a violin, would you expect to play Mozart flawlessly the first time you put it under your chin?

Ironically when using manual flash one quickly realizes the biggest difficulty with using flash: for any given flash output level the exposure is only correct at one distance from the flash. Once that basic physical reality is realized and applied to ETTL use, ETTL is much simpler conceptually: its a matter of helping the camera automatically identify the distance of the object you want correctly exposed based solely on the light reflected from the scene.

That is exactly what one is forced to to when using manual flash, either with a meter, or by testing or trail and error. Back when I used my manual Vivitars I benchmark tested them at various shooting distances with and without diffuser so I knew EXACTLY what the correct exposure would be at shooting distance 6, 8, 11 and 16 feet from a subject with either a single flash or two flashes in a 3:1 H:S ratio configuration. Why those shooting distances? Like the f/stop numbers each increase in distance (e.g. from 8 to 11 ft.) changes exposure by one f/stop (more or less). When using two flashes placing the off camera light at 4ft when shooting at 6ft. results in a 3:1 ratio. When moving back to 8ft. the camera aperture gets opened a stop an the off camera light moved out to 6ft. to maintain the ratio. Moving out to 11ft. for a wide shot requires opening the lens another stop to maintain correct exposure and the off camera light must move to 8ft. to maintain the same 3:1 ratio.

ETTL ratios , like any tool, is ideal for some jobs and doesn't perform very well for others. For example when shooting portraits in a fixed setting with multiple people because ETTL adjusts exposure based on reflectance of the scene, as judged from the light hitting the viewfinder, exposure will change from subject-to-subject resulting in the need to find the ideal level of FEC for each. Manual flash, using the method above is simpler and more consistent. I put my pair of identically diffused 580ex on 1/2 manual power (for faster recycling) and place the center if the off camera flash diffuser exactly 5.5ft from the subject's nose at an angle of 45 degrees. My arm span happens to be 5.5ft, so that measurement is consistent. I arrange the pose, feet-up, which takes all of about 30 sec., then take four measured steps backwards to 8ft. to shoot. 8ft is distance with renders a face with flattering perspective and it also puts my Master / fill flash where it needs to be (8ft vs 5.5ft) to create a perfect 3:1 lighting ratio. Because this set-up is consistent with regard to power and distance of the lights the exposure is always the same also, f/8. There is no need to meter or chimp. It is a total no-brainer technically, but I always take a test shot to make sure the idiot behind the camera hasn't done something stupid like leaving the camera on ISO 1600...



This image is copyrighted by the owner




It doesn't matter what the person in front of the camera is wearing, or what complexion their skin is, the same exposure, f/8, is perfect because exposure is based on the brightest highlights (not the average of the scene) and all faces have the same tone eyes and teeth (more or less) which need to be rendered correctly.

So yes, manual is a much better mode that ETTL in any situation where lighting must be consistent, shot-to-shot. But it also requires what is most important to be closest to the flash. For example if a person is posed in a white shirt with their shoulder closer to the key light than the face either the detail in the shirt will need to be blown to correctly expose the face further away, because if the shoulder is correctly exposed (i.e. to preserve detail) the face will become under-exposed.

As mentioned earlier, perceptually we will by eye accept a loss of detail in areas like the shoulder if the face is correctly exposed because our brains expect the face to be correctly exposed and will tune out the shoulder immediately. But the "brain" in the camera in evaluative ETTL mode is programmed differently and will try to identify the brightest area of detail and expose it correctly. It does this very predictably and consistently because its a computerized machine. To the extend it would be perceived to fail when it correctly exposes the white shoulder at the expense of under-exposing the face is more a case of the user having unrealistic expectations based on their pre-conceived perceptual notion that "correct" exposure is when the face looks right. If the face isn't correctly exposed in their view ETTL has failed.

Making ETTL work in the situation described above, person wearing a white shirt, is actually quite simple. Change the pose. If the pose is changed so the white shirt is the same distance as the face the ETTL metering will again "nail" the exposure of the shirt, but this time also nail the face because it is the same distance to the flash. In other words to make ETTL work effectively you first need to understand how it interprets a scene and then change your methods to enable it to interpret the scene correctly. Stop being like a 2 year-old who throws a tantrum when something doesn't work "my way" and learn instead how to make it work.

Regardless of how flash is controlled, manually or ETTL, the key factor for correct exposure is composition: the need to place everything requiring correct exposure both closest to, and the same distance from the flash.

ETTL metering is most useful in dynamic situations where subject - flash distance is constantly changing or un-predictable. The problem with respect to getting correct ETTL exposures is the fact that in those situations it is nearly impossible to control what is in the foreground of the scene.

Let's say you are shooting two people on an empty dance floor 10ft away. With manual flash, assuming you've benchmarked, it would be simply a matter of dialing in the aperture needed for correct exposure at 10ft. If the dance floor is clear and ETTL metering would also be able to correctly meter the dancers 10 ft away. But now fill the dance floor with other people closer to the camera. Manual will still correctly expose the couple 10ft away, but at the expense of blowing out the people in the foreground. ETTL, relying on reflected light to make its decisions will correctly expose the foreground and under expose the couple.

Such are the dilemmas faced by photographers in nearly every candid (i.e. non static) flash situation? Should ETTL be indicted for failing to get the exposure correct? No, not any more than manual should be for blowing out the foreground. The solution in that situation is for the photographer, cognizant of the laws of physics and light, to realize the better strategy in that situation would be to bounce most of the light off the ceiling to evenly light the entire dance floor then place a second flash behind the dancers out of camera view to separate them with back-rim lighting.

The advantage of the Canon approach, vs using manual flash with radio triggers, is the ability to switch back and forth from ETTL to full manual remote control simply by pressing the MODE button on the master. ETTL is far more convenient in dynamic situations because it reacts and compensates to changing subject flash distances. When the main center of interest is closest to the flash and centered in the viewfinder ETTL does a good job of getting exposure correct. Once it is realized how un-important foreground detail skews ETTL exposure it is possible to either eliminate it with cropping, or anticipate how it will skew exposure and compensate with FEC. In situations where I find ETTL isn't producing the desired results I just press MODE, switch to M and dial in the power levels manually using the camera overexposure warning as a guide to when the highlights are correctly exposed.

Part of craft is knowing which tool is best for each job and its a poor craftsman who blames his tools for a job poorly executed. I have no problem at all using manual flash when it is the best tool for the job. But to completely dismiss the use of ETTL methods like the "Stobist" does on "ethical" grounds that manual is somehow superior in all situations is just myopic and foolish in my view. I have manual flashes and radio triggers but prefer using the Canon system because in it I have a single tool which can perform the same task two different ways, controlled remotely with the push of a button from the master flash on the camera; vs the manual only "Strobist" approach which locks one into working one way which, while more consistent, is far less convenient to use in most candid situations.




Nov 23, 2008 at 01:47 PM
alanwarp
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p.1 #17 · Speedlight Tesing - Help!


David Hobby (from Strobist.com) is for whatever works easiest and gets the job done (I may have misrepresented that), he even has some tutorials where he does use ETTL or CLS in nikon-speak, it definitely has value and is very helpful in some situations. I've seen Joe McNally using the Nikon CLS in various videos and presentations, obviously he knows what he's doing... But my point (and I believe David Hobby's point) is learning how to use a manual flash is a piece of knowledge that you can keep with you forever, not knowledge tied to some proprietary system.

So given all that, back to the original poster's problem, and knowing how to use every tool for its situation, given the incredibly static and consistant nature of the original poster's setup, seems starting with manual would be a good application of his tools, no?

Alan



Nov 23, 2008 at 02:24 PM




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