p.15 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Valorin wrote:
A 500D is hardly a suitable solution for very low light photography when you're forced to manual focus with its tiny viewfinder. An M8 likely isn't either, but in terms of focus it's certainly no better.
Are you basing that in personal experience in both systems or conjecture?
p.15 #2 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Personal experience with the 500D. I guess I misworded that last sentence to seem as if the M8 was inferior, I meant the opposite. The M8 in terms of low light focus should be no worse than the 500D, although of course someone will raise the focus-recompose issue.
p.15 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Valorin wrote:
Personal experience with the 500D. I guess I misworded that last sentence to seem as if the M8 was inferior, I meant the opposite. The M8 in terms of low light focus should be no worse than the 500D, although of course someone will raise the focus-recompose issue.
Even with the focus/recompose issue I'd take the M8 over the 500D for low-light focusing unless Live View was a viable option for working. Focus/Recompose issues are limited to very specific circumstances, while the 500D's viewfinder is simply hard to focus accurately with in the first place.
p.15 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I must be an idiot for participating in this thread, but fredmiranda.com most definately needs a dedicated Leica forum. Every single Leica thread ends up being ______________.
p.15 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Hm, I'm not trying to bash leica or anything, I'm actually considering getting an used m8, if I can find a beat up relatively cheap one. (1500-2500 USD somewhere :P ).
p.15 #6 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
ulrikft wrote:
Hm, I'm not trying to bash leica or anything, I'm actually considering getting an used m8, if I can find a beat up relatively cheap one. (1500-2500 USD somewhere :P ).
And there's an M in my near future as well. Likely a M4-2 or M4-P, although the local pusher has a user M6 I could get for a reasonable price. Need a film body for the M lenses I'm looking to acquire for the G1.
p.15 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
ulrikft wrote:
Quick question.
Many people I find seem to think that the m8 is faster to focus, beacause they don't. You just put it at f/5.6-8 and prefocus hyperfocal, that way you can lift the camera up and snap away. But that doesen't really work for the stuff I do, I'm looking for a m8 to use with a 35 1.4/50 1.1/75 1.4 combo, for isolated subjects.. is the m8 still fast?
I don't have a Lux or Nocti, my fastest M lens is a 50 Cron (on an M6), but I do not prefocus. Even when I use my 28 elmarit outdoor or with a flash I don't prefocus, cause manual focus with a rangefinder is fast. Just leave the lens focus at infinity, so when you pick the camera to your eyes you only have to move the focus tab in one direction, and not back and forth. Then after the shoot turn the focus back to infinity.
When using my 50 cron, at wide open (f/2) I find that focusing is fast, but only if I use a 1.25x viewfinder magnifier (gives about 0.9x magnification). Without the magnifier, I have to slow down. So, If you want to shoot wide open with either a nocti or Lux, you will have a better chance of getting the focus right on and focus faster if you use a viewfinder magnifier.
p.15 #8 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I have shot thousands of pics with my M8. If anyone wants some JPGs or DNGs to see the quality of the files, drop me an email. -rob
Jun 18, 2009 at 11:54 PM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.15 #9 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I'm not trying to bash Leica either, but it seems to me that open discussion of M system shortcomings is somewhat taboo, and when anyone moots them people step in to criticise the discussion or those involved in it. It's good to talk about a camera's shortcomings as well as its advantages. In particular such discussion helps to manage the expectations of those who are considering investing in the M system or who are new to it.
For central subjects at very wide apertures where details are non-repetitive the RF method works well, and good focus in low-light can be achieved, sometimes more easily or accurately than with an SLR. Unfortunately the M8's high iso performance makes that occasional advantage irrelevant because despite good focus, image quality will be poor due to the limitations of the sensor.
Given a sharp f1.4 lens and an accurate manual focus screen (not the standard screen), I believe that the 500D will match M8 focus reliability in very low light, and reach considerably further into the gloom due to its much newer and better sensor. In moderately experienced hands it can take adequate pictures in circumstances where the M8 just can't. The converse isn't true, IMO.
With Canon's standard focussing screens it's just about impossible to manually focus anything at all.
A rangefinder, Leica or other, with up-to-date high iso performance like CaNikon SLRs would be a formidable low-light camera, but unfortunately it's not available.
Of course there are many circumstances in which the M8 takes very nice pictures, but the question of whether it is generally outperformed by far cheaper cameras is still pertinent.
p.15 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
This thread was always going to bring fanatics (like myself) out of the woodwork to defend the red dot. I don't use an M8 now, I have used a friend's quite extensively, but I use an M6 instead.
I do agree that it's an oxymoron of a camera, design for discretion and travel, but with limited low light shooting capability. With good light it simply sings, CCD still trumps similar CMOS sensors for colour it seems.
I just think at the end of the day, if you think you want an M8, it's not for the same reasons as one would want an SLR. If I could put my 5D Mark II sensor and screen on an M series though, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even though it's magnesium, the 5D feels like plastic after handling a Leica M.
Leica as a company have one great fallibility and that seems to be after-sales service, I've heard nightmares to the point where I would hesitate to get an M8 as I cannot get the electronics serviced by DAG or sherry krauter.
p.15 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
brainiac wrote:
Given a sharp f1.4 lens and an accurate manual focus screen (not the standard screen), I believe that the 500D will match M8 focus reliability in very low light, and reach considerably further into the gloom due to its much newer and better sensor. In moderately experienced hands it can take adequate pictures in circumstances where the M8 just can't. The converse isn't true, IMO.
I agree that the M8 is heavily flawed in many respects, although for many people it doesn't get in the way and sometimes contributes to some great photos. I'm not sure pointing to a low-end DSLR as a good substitute in low light is really appropriate. The issue is not really with the focusing screen in the 500D, or any other low end DSLR for that matter. The problem lies in the viewfinder which is unsuited to manual focusing. Are there even any good matte focusing screens for these low end cameras? I haven't heard of any. And since you're already vehemently opposed to focus-recompose (which is really it's own issue, since many DSLR users use it too) you can't possibly advocate the use of a traditional split prism/microprism focusing screen.
You don't have to look far to find sometime that works in low light in terms of both focus and image quality, so I'm not sure using the 500D as an exemplar is helping you argue your point. Both the D700 and 5D2 are around the price of an M8, and in most respects surpass the M8. You can just leave it at that.
p.15 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
brainiac wrote:
It's good to talk about a camera's shortcomings as well as its advantages.
Richard, you raise a lot of good points about the drawbacks of the M8, but if I could ask, what are some things that you like about it beyond the obviously nice M lenses and size and weight advantage that it has over modern digital SLRs?
Jun 19, 2009 at 09:49 AM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.15 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Valorin wrote:
I agree that the M8 is heavily flawed in many respects, although for many people it doesn't get in the way and sometimes contributes to some great photos. I'm not sure pointing to a low-end DSLR as a good substitute in low light is really appropriate. The issue is not really with the focusing screen in the 500D, or any other low end DSLR for that matter. The problem lies in the viewfinder which is unsuited to manual focusing. Are there even any good matte focusing screens for these low end cameras? I haven't heard of any. And since you're already vehemently opposed to focus-recompose (which is really it's own issue, since many DSLR users use it too) you can't possibly advocate the use of a traditional split prism/microprism focusing screen.
You don't have to look far to find sometime that works in low light in terms of both focus and image quality, so I'm not sure using the 500D as an exemplar is helping you argue your point. Both the D700 and 5D2 are around the price of an M8, and in most respects surpass the M8. You can just leave it at that....Show more →
100% agree. The reason I mention the 500D is that it illustrates just how far behind the M8 sensor is. All things considered, I would choose it over the M8 on account of the results, and even if I didn't have to pay for my own gear.
Jun 19, 2009 at 09:50 AM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.15 #15 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
StevenPA wrote:
Richard, you raise a lot of good points about the drawbacks of the M8, but if I could ask, what are some things that you like about it beyond the obviously nice M lenses and size and weight advantage that it has over modern digital SLRs?
- Access to very nice Zeiss and Cosina lenses which are more to my taste, as well as a great legacy of Leica lenses
- Adequate manual focus system is better than AF only, such as found on many compacts
- It's digital so pictures are free
- 1.3 crop is a bit better than 1.6 crop from the lens arithmetic p.o.v.
- dng seems like a good idea
- size would be nice if the ergonomics and excessive weight weren't so uncomfortable for me
- SD cards are my 2nd favourite card type
- I love the simple manual aperture and shutter speed dials, although I would like to see equivalent dials for iso and white balance since I change them often
- rear button layout is fairly sensible
- the screw on grip is adequate and should be bundled in my view, as the camera is dense, slippery, gripless and can damage tiled floors
- it really is pretty, as the picture below shows, but even this picture tells you a lot about the handling and features shortfall http://a.img-dpreview.com/reviews/LeicaM8/Images/sidebyside02.jpg
p.15 #17 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Interesting comments about the 500D here. I recently picked one of these up as a backup to my 5D2 and it is indeed a very capable little camera. The point I want to make here is that for a penta-mirror design it has a very bright and clear finder. I have been using it with the EF-S 60 macro lens this past couple of weeks and find no difficulty manually focusing with it, at least for flower photography. It's a nice step up from my first digital slr, the 350D. Even so, while a college student I did quite a bit of low light event photography for the communications department and my first year used the 350D with the 17-55 f2.8 and never missed a shot I needed to get, though it was sometimes difficult .
In terms of rangefinder cameras, lately I've been thinking of picking up a Zeiss Ikon film camera with a single lens (or M6). I've only had the pleasure of shooting with a rangefinder once but definitely enjoyed the different experience from an slr camera.
I'm only recently out of school so affording a Leica digital
