I recently did a shoot for a neighbor for their holiday cards, kids playing, and a few poses. She fell in love with one photo and wants to use it in their holiday card, in which I sell prints for $1.25 per card. I have 50 or so current templates (mpix) that I use.
She asked to buy the digital file from me so she can make her own card, she wants a 5x7, and I assume a different template. Now, I know most here don't sell digital files, (i never do) but as a neighbor/friend I feel like I should work with this person. I know they are going to place a big order, even a couple gallery wraps.
My question is, if any of you occasionally sell a digital file for certain uses, releasing re-print rights? How do you arrive at a price for the file? I assume that by giving up the file, it will cost me close to $100 on her order, but $100 may seem crazy to her for one print...so I am thinking $50-$75. Is it fair to restrict her holiday card design to my templates?
Maybe I should have shared the templates with her before the shoot. Please share your thoughts on this.
p.s. Update: wow, she just emailed me again wanting to put together a scrapbook of the photos of the shoot and wants to go through the outakes with me! Can you believe that?!
IMHO most neighbors, distant family, acquaintances (intentionally excluding family and close friends) don’t realize that what you do is worth something. Many simply see the fellow next door with the nice camera that is going to take some pictures for us. I don’t think she is “wrong” to ask you for the digital files and even for the “out takes” because she is ignorant (meaning lack of knowledge, not an offensive thing). You on the other hand are (presumably) experienced and probably should have made clear up front the costs, what they can expect, what you are willing to part with, and that they understand that if they want xzy that there is an associated cost. Im pretty sure they went into it thinking it was maybe going to be a littlemore casual with “rights” than you maybe were… most people wouldn’t ask something that maybe perceived as “outrageous” if they knew it… at least not if they know you.
Anyway that’s my $.02 and its not to criticize you but maybe make you think a little bit and if they are doing this to be outrageous or because they simply were not given enough information to form their own boundaries…
Burk Young wrote:
IMHO most neighbors, distant family, acquaintances (intentionally excluding family and close friends) don’t realize that what you do is worth something. Many simply see the fellow next door with the nice camera that is going to take some pictures for us. I don’t think she is “wrong” to ask you for the digital files and even for the “out takes” because she is ignorant (meaning lack of knowledge, not an offensive thing). You on the other hand are (presumably) experienced and probably should have made clear up front the costs, what they can expect, what you are willing to part with, and that they understand that if they want xzy that there is an associated cost. Im pretty sure they went into it thinking it was maybe going to be a littlemore casual with “rights” than you maybe were… most people wouldn’t ask something that maybe perceived as “outrageous” if they knew it… at least not if they know you.
Anyway that’s my $.02 and its not to criticize you but maybe make you think a little bit and if they are doing this to be outrageous or because they simply were not given enough information to form their own boundaries…
Yes, I think it is possible that there was a shortage of information changing hands. I usually send out a brief overview/marketing piece to clients for portrait sessions such as this. I am going to re-visit this and include more details such as "what to expect" and a disclaimer on digital files/holiday cards, etc. just wondering if anyone else has dealt with selling digital files in these circumstances...?
what were your neighbor's expectations going into the shoot? did she know you were going to charge her? or are you assuming that she knew?
FOR ME, i shoot my neighbor's children all the time. i always order for them at cost and in some cases just send them files. *I* could never charge a neighbor or close acquaintance.
Tough call. I am with canerino in that I would probably give it to her, BUT it's not how I make my living either. Has she seen your site? If so then she knows this is a business for you. Maybe you could sit her down and be honest. If you do give her the pictures I would be clear that this was a one time thing so that she doesn't tell all of the neighbors and have them expecting the same thing.
They hired me to do the shoot. It really wasn't one of those backyard freebies but rather a two-part planned photo shoot and I was paid my shooting fee up front. After the session (and after they received the proofs) is when all the questions came about buying digital files, looking at outtakes, etc. I spend a lot of time on the shoot, and PP so I really hardly ever give away my services, although I do give friendly discounts from time to time!
As for charging my cost, I would end up making $0 on a holiday card photo session in which I was hired to do in the first place, and they knew they would be buying prints.
I guess I am just surprised at how people nowadays just ask for digital files. It is not the first time and certainly won't be the last....
canerino wrote:
what were your neighbor's expectations going into the shoot? did she know you were going to charge her? or are you assuming that she knew?
FOR ME, i shoot my neighbor's children all the time. i always order for them at cost and in some cases just send them files. *I* could never charge a neighbor or close acquaintance.
"Give a little, take a little. Give a lot, take a lot."
There are many ways this scenario can "play out."
Since it is your neighbor/friend, it will likely be to your disadvantage to try to charge "too much." But what is "too much?" Only your "client" can tell you that.
My Simple Suggestion: Let her offer to pay you what she thinks the "images" are worth to HER.
I hope this Suggestion helps you and others, including your friend, reach an agreeable "price."
another way to look at it, is yes, charge her cost on printing, or Barely above that, so that you pay your monthly fee with your webserver or something. just enough to make it worth it. I personally would charge cost plus 20 bucks on the printing, regardless of size, as well as a low hourly rate. you can give away your images, but not your time, nor your constant expenses of running business.
Is this bizarro world? Why is everyone telling the OP - who is a professional photographer - that he should give his work away for free/at cost/slightly above cost? If your neighbor is a dentist, do you expect her to do your check ups for free? If your neighbor is a car salesman, do you expect him to give you a Porsche at cost?
Nathan, I would charge her about $50 for the digital file with the express permission that it can only be used for the cards. I'd also resize it so that it wouldn't print well at larger sizes, so they can't go behind your back and have large prints made.
Since the client is also placing a large order, I would be pretty flexible. If you're completely against selling the file, just explain to her that you don't sell files. As far as a "let's look at everything session", that's a tough one. It does sound like this could be a good client to keep on your side though, so if you make some extra effort to me nice (not get walked over), it will likely reward you in the future in sales and new sessions.
patrickphoto wrote:
another way to look at it, is yes, charge her cost on printing, or Barely above that, so that you pay your monthly fee with your webserver or something. just enough to make it worth it. I personally would charge cost plus 20 bucks on the printing, regardless of size, as well as a low hourly rate. you can give away your images, but not your time, nor your constant expenses of running business.
Sorry patrick, I just can't agree with that statement "you can give away your images, but not your time". Prints are THE main product that we give our clients....they are not hiring us for the time we spend with them.
CRFTony wrote:
Is this bizarro world? Why is everyone telling the OP - who is a professional photographer - that he should give his work away for free/at cost/slightly above cost? If your neighbor is a dentist, do you expect her to do your check ups for free? If your neighbor is a car salesman, do you expect him to give you a Porsche at cost?
Nathan, I would charge her about $50 for the digital file with the express permission that it can only be used for the cards. I'd also resize it so that it wouldn't print well at larger sizes, so they can't go behind your back and have large prints made.
Since the client is also placing a large order, I would be pretty flexible. If you're completely against selling the file, just explain to her that you don't sell files. As far as a "let's look at everything session", that's a tough one. It does sound like this could be a good client to keep on your side though, so if you make some extra effort to me nice (not get walked over), it will likely reward you in the future in sales and new sessions.
Thanks for the sound advice Tony.....you read my mind. $50 is what I am thinking, and I have already re-sized a print for 5x7 for that use only. This seems to be both fair for her, and I am totally OK with it, especially since I am expecting a big order.
Try and understand: it doesn't matter what they think they are paying for. It is your life, to live, to work. The more time you spend on a client, the less time you are living your own life. this is the trade we call "work". so, even if you are having fun with photography, if you could choose anything to do with your time, I doubt this job would be the FIRST on the list. So, assuming as much is true, you cannot give away your time, you charge. As for someone stating that I say to give it away for free, what part of "charge them cost plus..." don't you get? Never give away anything worth money. Charge what you want, 50 for the file, cost plus something for the prints, your time at some rate, high or low. Never give it away. You not only lose money on this deal, but in the future the client will expect more for less, and you will continue to lose money.
As for the digital file cost, I would charge the same as a sitting fee, regardless of the size they use. When not used for distributed publication for business use, they should pay what they would for any number of portraits without prints. So, what do you charge? I would charge 150. Every job I shot, I charge this much minimum, no ifs ands or buts.
nsieve wrote:
Prints are THE main product that we give our clients....they are not hiring us for the time we spend with them.
sorry, but i think you're wrong here. photography is NOT just a product. and they ARE hiring you for your time. not just your time, but your talent. if they don't care to pay for the time and the talent, they can go to whatever godforsaken mall studio that people usually go to, and get a print there.
If I may add some basic thought here, understanding that the neighbor has no idea on the true value of the purchase of this digital file, I feel they will have the same uncomfortable feeling of what to offer as you do on what to ask
So, my suggestion for what it may be worth , present the option to buy the file with a reasonable range such as: Mrs Neighbor/friend, normally digital files in my line of work are rarely sold and when they are sold the going 'range' (keyword) is $45-$100 so you make the call on what value seems fair to you as I want to make sure you understand the value and as a friend are also happy!
No one is under any pressure here it is informative and the final commitment is put in their hands. Hope some part of this helps a bit.
If you don't sell files for other customers, why make an exception for this one? Kindly explain that this is how you make a living. What is her profession? Her her if she (or her boss) would kindly "give" you the services/product offered at the place of HER employment. Most likely, the answer is no.
Note: This probably won't work well if she works at a mortuary or specializes in DUI law. Necessary services, but you don't want to NEED them!
Do you present them with a bill? I would and you could put
$150 Session fee
$150 digital negative
-100 one time discount
$75 retouching
300 gallery wrap
100 5x7s
75 8x10s
50 4x6s
-------
$800
I'm not saying give it away but it sounds like you could have at least one more session and that certainly could be worth more that 100 discount one time.
$100 is not unreasonable. I offer a my session DVD for $1,000. have folks bought em, you bet. Those that do usually also buy more prints from me as well. Stand your ground.
Of course Ryan, the experience and time you spend with clients is always part of the deal...a big part. But note, I said "main product" meaning the pictures are what they get to hang on their wall as the product. I was not referring to photography as a product, but rather, prints as a product. The laughs and overall experience they have with me is a small part of the end result product. That's why most here put such a value on prints and not selling digital files for the most part.
RyanFlynn wrote:
sorry, but i think you're wrong here. photography is NOT just a product. and they ARE hiring you for your time. not just your time, but your talent. if they don't care to pay for the time and the talent, they can go to whatever godforsaken mall studio that people usually go to, and get a print there.
I like this idea as it both spells it out for the client and shows the goodwill at the same time.
Thanks for your thoughts!
~N
jhobgood wrote:
Do you present them with a bill? I would and you could put
$150 Session fee
$150 digital negative
-100 one time discount
$75 retouching
300 gallery wrap
100 5x7s
75 8x10s
50 4x6s
-------
$800
I'm not saying give it away but it sounds like you could have at least one more session and that certainly could be worth more that 100 discount one time.
, present the option to buy the file with a reasonable range such as: Mrs Neighbor/friend, normally digital files in my line of work are rarely sold and when they are sold the going 'range' (keyword) is $45-$100 so you make the call on what value seems fair to you as I want to make sure you understand the value and as a friend are also happy!