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Archive 2008 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?

  
 
SJMD
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p.2 #1 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


after I printed some images that did not look as good as what I had produced on the monitor, I found out about soft proofing. It allows me to have the pictures look closer to how I won't instead of being frustrated why my image was less than I had hoped for. It also teaches neat to think in terms of my printer. In my humble opinion, it is not truly a picture until it is printed. I use an Epson 3800.

God bless and get out and vote (unless you're not voting like me )



Nov 04, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #2 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Wayne,

It depends on your particular monitor and calibration. If your calibration takes place before the lookup tables in the video card like it does in high end monitors like the Artisan's I use, then changing the monitor profile in the control panel will end up loading the "wrong" profile for that calibration, throwing off the view in Ps. If all of your calibration takes place in the video card and NOTHING in the monitor hardware, then loading the profile from the control panel may have the desired effect. If you're seeing a difference on screen when you load from the control panel, then you either have the former situation or a hybrid where some of the calibration is done in hardware and some done in the lookup tables. In order for the profile to be valid and represent the monitor at the state of calibration, nothing can have changed in your monitor hardware settings.



Nov 04, 2008 at 11:31 AM
BobCollette
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p.2 #3 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Peter, you mentioned that you feel the Kodak Custom Color Profile Editor is non-intuitive. Having worked at Kodak in the color management area, that is the tool that I am used to using (haven't tried the GretagMacbeth tools). Personally, I feel the Kodak editor is very intuitive. You basically load in the image you want to work with and the profile you wish to edit. Any changes you make to the image to make it print the way you want it to, using any of the myriad tools that Photoshop has, are reflected in the modified profile. For example, if you want to change the hue or saturation of a particular color, you can use Selective Color or Replace Color (or any other tool) to make the change you desire. When you're done, the modified profile contains the change. The modified profile is always larger, since it's basically concatenating an abstract profile to the original profile.


Nov 04, 2008 at 01:24 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #4 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Bob,

I understand exactly how it works, but it's still not nearly as intuitive as Gretag's editor. While on the surface, it might seems that using Photoshop's toolset would be more intuitive, it was never that way for me. The types of tools that the Gretag editor has are far more useful for the types of edits that are typically needed, and I can't remember any way to affect the AbsCol white point in Custom Color - the way you easily can in ProfileMaker.

I know you worked at Kodak in the Color Management division, I'm surprised you haven't spent some time with the competing products. It always seems prudent to me to see what the competition is up to. It helps you improve you own product.



Nov 04, 2008 at 02:06 PM
BobCollette
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p.2 #5 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Peter, thanks for the feedback. I agree that there is no way to adjust the white point with the Kodak tools. When I worked at Kodak, I was involved (among other things) in creating ICC profiles for their Kodak Professional thermal printers. I worked closely with the color scientists in the color management group, however I wasn't involved in the creation of any of their color management tools. As a color management "user" I only had access to the Kodak tools. I know that the engineers/scientists responsible for creating the color management tools had access to the competing products.

Bob



Nov 04, 2008 at 03:02 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #6 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Most of my RGB>CYMK and color management experience was in the realm of offset printing where there are a whole host of mechanical constraints such as wet trapping of colors and dot gain which affect conversion in ways I'm sure are much different than ink jets which spit and spray the ink.

By way of explaination: Trapping of ink is on a rotary press like making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. If you put the jelly down first the peanut butter will just slide off because it doesn't "trap" or stick. Same too with inks, the tackiness of the inks were calibrated such that the first-down color would trap the second and so on. The ink works down from a fountain through a set of rollers, and when the "form" roller hits the metal plate was split in half as it is transfered or "offset" to the rubber blanket, and then split again when transferred to the paper. Lots of mechanical variables to go wrong which are not present in ink jet printing. Because of trapping issue there is a limit of 280-300% (out of a possible 400%) for the four colors.

Some very clever guy realized that most dark C+M+Y colors have a "gray" component and it was possible to remove the CYM in those colors and substitute a heavier percentage of black to compensate with the viewer of the image being none the wiser. Beyond the inherent economies (black ink is cheaper than color ink) the less color there is to control on press, the less mechanical variables are likely to change during the run. So if you look at a set of separations made with "under color removal" (UCR) they are opposite of what you might expect from working in RGB. Where a conventional CYMK separation would have full-range color plates with a skeleton black; a separation prepared with UCR will have normal tonal ranges in colors which have a very small gray component, and a skeleton range in darker hues created with C+M+Y, with a heavier K plate.

Ink jets don't have the rotary-shear trapping problem and I would presume less have less of a compelling need for UCR. There might be some economic rationale for UCR, but somehow my cynical side can't see a printer maker which has a business model for consumer printers based on giving away printers for $70 - $125 to sell overpriced ink cartridges being highly motivated to incorporate UCR into its canned profiles.

So my question, directed to Peter others with experience making and editing profiles, is whether or not UCR is used on ink jet profiles and if so to what extent vs the CYMK profiles for offset.

Chuck





Nov 04, 2008 at 05:43 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #7 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Chuck,

I'm sure you're aware that anytime you print through a QuickDraw type driver, you treat the device as if it was an RGB device, even if it prints with six, eight or more colors. The driver itself makes the conversion to CMYK with a proprietary black generation. When you're printing through a true CMYK RIP, then you have to send CMYK or have a CMYK profile in the RIP for it to convert to. Black generation strategies for inkjets have changed over the years as the black inks have gotten finer in droplet size. Still, you tend to want a shorter steeper, and lighter black than you might want on an offset. You still want to keep the black out of the highlights where it can appear grainy, and you generally want to use a narrow width black to keep deep colors as pure as possible. Thankfully, that's handled by the driver and we just don't have to worry ourselves with those things.

You can download CMYK inkjet profiles from ColorBurst and look at them to see what sort of blacks they generate. I think CB's black gen is a bit on the heavy side for inkjet, but that's my opinion.

Web offset might have a 300 percent total ink limit, but sheetfed on good paper and a new press can easily handle 350 percent or more, and those higher densities are what can really enhance the limited color gamut of traditional offset printing.



Nov 04, 2008 at 06:39 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #8 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Peter,

I actually haven't followed the inner workings of things like QuickDraw and while I was assuming the CYMK for offset would be converted in Photoshop with UCR, dot gain, etc. to be incorporated into a Quark page layout then a form by the pagination software. I'm less clear what actually happens when an individual RGB file is sent to an ink jet with Photoshop managing the color. What is the difference between "Photoshop manages color" and "Printer manages color" with respect to where and when the printer profile controls the RGB> CYMK remapping?

Also, by saying, "black strategies have changed.... " does that it means some degree of color replacement is being done on ink jets?

A "trick of the trade" in offset printing for more saturated colors has long been to print a 4/C sheet, let it dry, then run it back through the press for a second printing with a "kiss" plate. The problem in the 1970s before pre-press proofing is that dishonest separation houses would do that with their proofs




Nov 04, 2008 at 08:40 PM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #9 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


I actually haven't followed the inner workings of things like QuickDraw and while I was assuming the CYMK for offset would be converted in Photoshop with UCR, dot gain, etc. to be incorporated into a Quark page layout then a form by the pagination software."

Most people here are probably printing to inkjets most of the time, so they really just need to think RGB. Here's what happens when you throw CMYK at the Epson/Canon/HP driver. The data gets converted back to RGB using whatever settings are in your Color Settings and then gets converted again with the "black box" of the driver itself to the color requirements of the particular printer, including splitting off colors for multiple blacks and light cyan and magenta inks.

"I'm less clear what actually happens when an individual RGB file is sent to an ink jet with Photoshop managing the color. What is the difference between "Photoshop manages color" and "Printer manages color" with respect to where and when the printer profile controls the RGB> CYMK remapping?"

When you choose "Ps Manages Color", the file is converted in Photoshop using the current color settings to the paper profile you chose in the driver. "Printer Manages Color" lets the printer itself do the conversion, which is something not documented anywhere I've ever seen. The consensus is to let Ps manage color for best results, but for me, even better is to use Convert to Profile in Ps, letting you use the built in softproofing in Convert to Profile to decide at time what rendering intent is appropriate. I then send the pre converted file to the printer with the "Don't Color Management" option checked both in the Adobe and Epson party of the driver. This way I'm always sending the file to the printer in exactly the same path as the profile target I printed to make the profile. I apologize for spacing on the exact designations for this in the driver, as I'm at home on a laptop with no printer drivers at the time, but you'll see the options there.

"Also, by saying, "black strategies have changed.... " does that it means some degree of color replacement is being done on ink jets?"

Yes there is some GCR going on, and we don't have any easy way to determine what Epson or Canon does in their driver, but it's definitely there.

"A "trick of the trade" in offset printing for more saturated colors has long been to print a 4/C sheet, let it dry, then run it back through the press for a second printing with a "kiss" plate. The problem in the 1970s before pre-press proofing is that dishonest separation houses would do that with their proofs"

Thankfully those days are long gone. We now just have to learn how to target the ever varying digital proofers that are everywhere today.



Nov 05, 2008 at 01:38 AM
SoundHound
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p.2 #10 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Thank you all for permission to, as usual, to ignore soft proofing!


Nov 06, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #11 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


One of the things I work on four times a year is a trade magazine for the Garrett division of Honeywell - some of my own images and a lot of varying stock images from just about anywere. It's printed at Lithocraft in Anaheim, Ca. and as is typical, this time again, there was major surgery done to many of the images. All of them were corrected first in RGB and then converted to the custom ProfileMaker CMYK profile I made of the high end proofing system at the printer. Final corrections were made in CMYK, including making sure that the ink percentages were appropriate in the highlights and shadows.

Bottom line is that using the soft proofing capabilities of Photoshop on screen and backing up that on screen view with reading the exact ink values for key area, I made no hard Epson proofs. The lead designer at the ad agency got the proofs back from the printer today and all he had to say was they were perfect. Not a single change in color or tone in about fifty or so images.

That's what soft proofing can do for you. It saves you time and money in the real world. If you take the time to do it right, it's an amazing tool, no matter what the naysayers claim.



Nov 07, 2008 at 03:47 AM
cgardner
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p.2 #12 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


Peter, thanks for sharing that story. But I can't help noting:

1) It worked because you have the extensive experience and expensive tools necessary to create very accurate custom profiles.

2) You used CYMK dot percentages needed to be for ideal reproduction to guide the editing, as much or dare I say more so than the soft proofing. Granted it was the soft proofing via the CYMK profile which produced the percentages to evaluate, but "checking the dots" has always been the benchmark for predicting outcome for offset and that requires quite a bit of experience to do successfully.

3) The customer viewed and approved hard copy proofs "from the printer" made on the high end proofing system which you had accurately profiled. But the $64,000 question is, has the job printed and did the production run match the hard and soft proofs? That's where the perceptual rubber hits the road and all the fun stuff you can't predict with any pre-press proofing begins

So overall if I were to tally up the score I'd stand up applaud and give it a 10 out of 10 for successful color management, but credit 4 points to the underlying technology and 6 points to your skill and knowledge using it. Hence my only bone of contention with the current state of color management: its not that is can't work, only that its not mature to the point where mere morals with off-the-shelf consumer products can use it with the same degree of success you enjoy. Hopefully that will change.

The breakthrough for color management in my view will be when even consumer grade printers have the ability to self-profile, similar to the sensitometer built into the HP B9180. If they can build that capability into a $600 printer should eventually trickle down to less expensive ones, but OTOH the fact HP didn't include it in the "baby brother" B8550 model was for me a disappointment. The next step in the evolution from color-geekdom to consumer-friendly would be the ability for the printer to automatically transmit its custom generated profile to Photoshop automatically whenever the "Print > Page Set-up" command is used.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon because the business model for consumer printers is built on the assumption the owner of the $100 HP printer will use HP inks on HP papers which generate most of the revenue and in that closed-loop environment just letting the printer manage the color usually produces better results than ill-informed attempts to manage it from Photoshop. Thus there is very little financial incentive for HP, Epson or Canon to incorporate technology which would allow the consumer to get equally good results on the photo paper they buy for half the cost from Costco. In fact I suspect the inks are specifically formulated to only work optimally with binders in same brand papers. That's certainly been my experience trying to use Epson paper on an HP printer. It's a bit like the tobacco companies marketing cigarettes saying they have a unique taste knowing the consumer will get hooked on the nicotine. Sure they will try the bargain paper and ink refills, but after seeing the lousy results they'll come back in line and by the printer branded paper.

The difference in outlook between us stems from the fact you view the technology "top down" from the perspective of an expert with all the tools, while I see it from the "bottom-up" viewpoint of the consumer wondering when all the benefits the technology will trickle down to to my level. Yes it works, but only if I use HP paper on my HP printer. Its not the fault of the technology as much as it it the business model for consumer level printers. Printer makers have hooked the consumer with cheap printers sold below cost to sell ink and paper at a high profit margin. Professionals pay actual cost for the equipment, but with that comes the freedom to manage color on their terms. I want effective color management, but can't justify spending $1,000 or more just for the tools to manage color. Heck, I can't even justify that much for a printer. So why don't you send me your profiles and I'll e-mail you my photo files whenever I want a really good print that matches the soft proof on my monitor

Actually I've thought for some time that a well color managed wide-format printing operation would be good niche "walk-in trade" market for businesses like sign companies which already have most of the tools and excess capacity, but just haven't focused on that market segment. Its not a logical market niche for a photographer or studio because it would compete directly with the products they sell. Its interesting to note that Ritz camera stores now have wide format printers sitting out in front of the store counters and are starting to advertise "posters while you wait". Convenience, but I suspect without much in the way of color management.

Chuck



Nov 07, 2008 at 09:26 AM
Peter Figen
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p.2 #13 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


"1) It worked because you have the extensive experience and expensive tools necessary to create very accurate custom profiles."

I don't deny that I've spent the money to be able to do this and spent an equal amount of time learning to do it right, but I'll also say that it's all been worth it in the amount of repeat business I get in prepping files and in the number of times the very first print on my own printers is the one I go with.

2) You used CYMK dot percentages needed to be for ideal reproduction to guide the editing, as much or dare I say more so than the soft proofing. Granted it was the soft proofing via the CYMK profile which produced the percentages to evaluate, but "checking the dots" has always been the benchmark for predicting outcome for offset and that requires quite a bit of experience to do successfully.

Without the soft proofing, the dot percentages are only what they are. If you did your conversion with the wrong profile and then set the endpoints or midtone to what you thought was right, your results would still suck. When I make new custom profiles for a printer I've never used before, I'll often Assign other profiles to see how close the new profile is to others I use, and of course, compared back to the canned Adobe profiles. There are almost always significant visual differences that would be enough to ruin a job if you used the wrong profile by mistake.

3) The customer viewed and approved hard copy proofs "from the printer" made on the high end proofing system which you had accurately profiled. But the $64,000 question is, has the job printed and did the production run match the hard and soft proofs? That's where the perceptual rubber hits the road and all the fun stuff you can't predict with any pre-press proofing begins

True, but we've done so many jobs at this printer, that I know that the actual piece almost always looks BETTER than the proofs. I think that job is on press today. If a printer can't match or at least come very close to their proofing system, then they have a problem. Of course, there are many variables on press, but it's the job a good press operator to match or better the proofs. This job has gotten a lot easier in recent years with direct to plate and computerized control of modern presses. Makeready now takes far less time with fewer wasted sheets than ever, and being able to save out targeted density points for a particular job makes it even easier to get to where you want or need to be.

Y'know, you can complain about how much this stuff costs, and, trust me, it was a LOT more expensive when I started buying into it, or you can look at it from a different perspective. I prefer to look at owning and using this technology as another part of the toolset that I need to produce the best quality product. I mean, for the most part, you could probably get away with Photoshop Elements, but you're using Photoshop CS3 or 4 I bet. While it might be nice for Adobe to provide more tools and the printer makers to include spectrophotometers in every printer, it's not there yet, and it seems to me that even with economy of scale, it won't make much sense to put a spectro into every single consumer level printer. It makes a lot more sense to do what they do now - provide reasonably accurate canned profiles that are "good enough" for most people while keeping the cost low enough to sell enough product to be profitable. For those that need more accuracy and precision, you're just going to have to pony up to the bar and spend what it takes to produce the results you want. Remember that for less than a hundred bucks, you can get yourself a very good profile made.



Nov 07, 2008 at 04:24 PM
Claude
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p.2 #14 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


"When you choose "Ps Manages Color", the file is converted in Photoshop using the current color settings to the paper profile you chose in the driver. "Printer Manages Color" lets the printer itself do the conversion, which is something not documented anywhere I've ever seen. The consensus is to let Ps manage color for best results, but for me, even better is to use Convert to Profile in Ps, letting you use the built in softproofing in Convert to Profile to decide at time what rendering intent is appropriate. I then send the pre converted file to the printer with the "Don't Color Management" option checked both in the Adobe and Epson party of the driver. This way I'm always sending the file to the printer in exactly the same path as the profile target I printed to make the profile. I apologize for spacing on the exact designations for this in the driver, as I'm at home on a laptop with no printer drivers at the time, but you'll see the options there."

Very interesting information, Peter, I will give this a try. Thanks to all, very helpful thread
Claude




Nov 09, 2008 at 04:06 PM
William Wilson
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p.2 #15 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


I use soft proofing simply to save on paper and ink through trial, all my papers are custom profiled there are some that are better than others. My work is mainly portraiture printing on rag papers on an Epson 9600 over the years you get the feel and a lot of problems can be caught with soft proofing, I don't care much for the arguments for or against just the results but have learned a few good points from this excellent thread.

This is a link to an Adobe conference that describes soft proofing and ways to maximise your end results.

Soft Proofing



Jan 11, 2009 at 03:41 PM
GeorgeM
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p.2 #16 · Soft Proofing - Do you use it?


tag


Jan 18, 2009 at 05:24 PM
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