Formals are Boring

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VermilionPhoto
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p.1 #1 · Formals are Boring

Part rant / part question:

So I started shooting some weddings this year. It's not going to be my full time job, but I'd like to be able to shoot half a dozen or so a year. I enjoy it, and makes me become a better photographer.

That being said, formals bore the hell out of me. It may be just my personal taste, but when I get married, I don't want a bunch of posed, stiff shots of people looking directly in the camera. I like the shots from the side that my assistant has gotten. It gives it more of a candid look i think.

So here's my question: Have any of you tried something different for formals? I understand the need and want for them, but why does the B&G have to be in the middle? Is symmetry mandatory? I worked on the basics this year, but next year I'd like to talk to the Bride beforehand and suggest some more 'fun' formals. Anyone got some examples they'd like to post?

Oct 08, 2008 at 02:41 PM

CarminaF
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p.1 #2 · Formals are Boring

I don't know if 'fun' formals are possible with little old ladies and uncles and whatnot. They have been trained their entire lives to smile at the camera, I don't know if one person can change all that. Think of it as record-keeping. Grandma wants to know what everyone looked like on the day, see their face, and know that they are happy.

My personal thought is... get done the family formals as quickly as possible (without screwing them up) and then have fun with the bridal party.

(oh, and ps, I agree. The formals are boring - but necessary)

Oct 08, 2008 at 02:50 PM

Chris Beaumont
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p.1 #3 · Formals are Boring

Pretty much exactly what Carmina said, the formals may not be fun, but they may well be the most important photos you get on the day, they may not be the ones you get referals from, but they'll be the ones most people order reprints of because, much as we may not want to face it, no-one, with the possible exception of the bride, is going to buy an 8x10 of a ring - no matter how beautiful the bokeh is!!

Wedding photography is, at the heart of it, just providing a service, and try as we may to put as much art into it as possible, no matter how stunning a shot in an album is, most people will look through the album and go "wow that's good" turn the page, and forget about it.

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:25 PM

DMSsix
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p.1 #4 · Formals are Boring

I agree with Carmina. People more than likely are going to want the boring to do formals. I struggle more than anything else with posing people in a creative fun way for the ones that are a bit less 'formal' and more fun. Gotta get better at that.

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:31 PM

the_rebel
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p.1 #5 · Formals are Boring

Luckily most of my couples don't really care for formals.
My upcoming wedding should be nothing short of nightmare, but i intend to infuse some fun from the conventional "smile...*click*" routine

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:35 PM

dmacmillan
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p.1 #6 · Formals are Boring

I'm so sorry you're bored. I didn't even realize the purpose of weddings was to entertain the photographer.

I think formals are boring to photographers who don't have the training to do them well. They usually don't even know what to look for to separate the passable formal from the well done one. Posing large groups well takes patience and skill. Posing the bride correctly is fraught with technicalities - how should her feet be positioned even though you can't see them? Is the veil adjusted correctly? If there are sleeves, do they end in the right place? According to the style of dress, is the train displayed properly? The old pros knew all this, most dabblers don't have a clue. You can tell in an instant by looking at the results.

Doug

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:47 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #7 · Formals are Boring

dmacmillan wrote:
I'm so sorry you're bored. I didn't even realize the purpose of weddings was to entertain the photographer.
Doug

I like (most often) photographing weddings and am usually entertained. Car talk does not entertain me nor does spectator sports ... so ... Meaning - if you are not truly enjoying it: find another activity.

Family photo wise: in a large sense this is why people hire me. Though I am a WPJA member and all that jazz ... it is the family photo that sets one apart. (as Doug said)

My clients tend to be film and advertising industry folk and bank and investment firm presidents: there seems to be a correlation between wealth and appreciation for terrific family and group photos.

This has been my experience.

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:56 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #8 · Formals are Boring

Edited on Oct 08, 2008 at 04:12 PM · View previous versions

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:06 PM

deewaltguy
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p.1 #9 · Formals are Boring

Wander through an art museum and see the portraits of wealthy patrons of the Renaissance. The main charachers are centered and the supporting cast surround them. Unless there is a theme of motion, this is repeated. I don't find it "boring", I find them repetitive. I always try to remind myself, this is the second (or third) wedding I've shot this weekend, but it's their only wedding (hopefully).
Just like with stage actors who need to make each presentation fresh to the audience despite how many times they've done the show, you need to generate quality classical portraits that will last the generations. Look at the pictures we dig up at family reunions, wedding portraits of parents or grandparents. It's not the snapshots of the flowers, or the champagne glasses, it's the people and their relationships with each other.
Monte Zucker used to say "in 30 years, nobody's going to care what bra grandma wore on her wedding day".

The formals will live on, take care with them and make them work for your clients or else you're doing them a disservice.

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:07 PM

cordellwillis
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p.1 #10 · Formals are Boring

What EVERYONE else said! Especially Doug.

+ 99% of my money making print orders are formals sizes 4x6 to 11x16. I've only received 2 (TWO) 8x10 print orders that were not formal pictures in my years as a photographer.

Peace,
Cordell

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:12 PM

VermilionPhoto
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p.1 #11 · Formals are Boring

Some good points and sage advice everyone. Carmina & Chris - good points.

deewaltguy - The formals will live on, take care with them and make them work for your clients or else you're doing them a disservice. very nicely put.

I am not trying to say formals are not necessary. What I was trying to extract was ideas about different ways of doing formals that are still posed/arranged, but in a fresh way, that will still be pleasing to everyone.

Doug - your post would have been more constructive if you'd left out that first line. Such condescending comments are the reason i rarely visit the wedding forum. But you do make a good point...there is great skill in nailing down the little details that make a good shot spectacular. I have nothing but the highest respect for people who do this for a living.

And I do enjoy weddings. But it seems that neither me, nor anyone actually in the wedding, particularly enjoys the formals either. Everyone understands the necessity, though. I am simply wondering if there is anyone here with a fresh perspective on them. Not that every couple would want such different takes on the classic 'formal' shots, but some (myself included) would.

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:21 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.1 #12 · Formals are Boring

knowing how to do formals well - technically AND personably - is something that will set you apart and be great for sales and referrals.

this summer i had numerous brides looking for the BIG (entire guest list) group shot and after a couple of very successful ones, i'm now starting to suggest it to all of my brides. in 3 minutes that you're herding 100-300 people if you can make them smile, laugh, and feel a part of the day, you have a connection to every single guest at that wedding. i am pleasantly surprised to see that my supplemental print sales are through the roof for those weddings.

as for "standard" formals - the same holds true. there is a magic formula for formals.

be skilled. (if you aren't skilled in lighting and posing - don't even bother with the rest of the list.)

be organized and run the show. (you're the pro. these people need direction. have your lighting set up in advance. have your 'must have list' practically memorized, have an assistant to keep an eye out for sunglasses, stains, purses, wrinkles. be in contact with the coordinator in advance of formals and make good use of him/her.)

be friendly. (this is a joyful day. your energy, pace, voice, and body language need to propel these folks through formal on that same high and into the reception loving that fabulous photographer. emotional connection to images = $$$ in your pocket. bored photographer = downer = grumpy guests = crappy sales)

make life easy on the friends and family in your pictures. (when a linebacker groomsman who hates having his picture taken makes the time to stop me on his way to cocktail hour to thank me for being so easy to work with, i know i've done my job.)

voila.

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:39 PM

lindabrowne
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p.1 #13 · Formals are Boring

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/623274/

Oct 08, 2008 at 04:46 PM

dmacmillan
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p.1 #14 · Formals are Boring

VermilionPhoto wrote:
Doug - your post would have been more constructive if you'd left out that first line. Such condescending comments are the reason i rarely visit the wedding forum. But you do make a good point...there is great skill in nailing down the little details that make a good shot spectacular. I have nothing but the highest respect for people who do this for a living.

I found your OP condescending to professional wedding photography. I'm not sure you realize how you sound to those who make their living this way. Whether you meant it or not, this is the way it sounded to me:
"I think I'll dabble in professional wedding photography, but not enough to seriously affect most of my weekends. Part of the job is boring to me. I'm not so much interested in the wants or needs of my clients, I'm not driven by trying to provide them with a better product, but I'm looking for alternates that I'll find more 'fun'. I'm also looking to use your wedding to sharpen my photographic skills."

I haven't shot a wedding professionally in 20 years, but for several years I fed my family by being a full time professional. To paraphrase the remark of another poster, a particular wedding may be the 240th for me, but it's probably the first and hopefully only wedding for them. To that end, I felt a huge responsibility to provide them with the best possible photography of which I was capable. I spent much effort in learning the skills of my craft. While I was interested in maximizing my profits, I also had enough pride in my work to want to know that they would proudly display my photos of their happy occasion for years to come.

Doug

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:05 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #15 · Formals are Boring

VermilionPhoto wrote

oug - your post would have been more constructive if you'd left out that first line. Such condescending comments are the reason i rarely visit the wedding forum.

Not at all.

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:21 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #16 · Formals are Boring

The formals are a very pleasant part of the day .. great for relatives to catch up in a nice environment while having a drink and hors d'oeuvres. 30 minutes well spent.

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:37 PM

ARDENT
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p.1 #17 · Formals are Boring

Although family formals may not be the most fun they definitely have their place. I have many clients who have grandparents who are sadly nearing their end and I know the family formal shots combined with a little extra coverage of these individuals will help to shape their memories. For the longest time I had trouble with family formals. I think there is some truth to if you don't understand them you learn to dread them. But once I started learning how to do them right it became a challenge and was very rewarding when my formals started looking more like a portrait and less like a firing squad lol. Some of my brides even brag to the people they've referred about how I was able to capture their entirely too large family in a fun, comfortable and professional way.

They are here to stay, and very important. Best just to refine your skills and look for new ways (staggering, different heights, from above etc...) to keep them fresh.

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:38 PM

billkrekephoto
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p.1 #18 · Formals are Boring

Hopefully this isn't stealing the OP's thread. Perhaps, an additional question for everyone.

What tips do you have for getting people at different heights in the image when you have only one step or no step at all.

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:44 PM

VermilionPhoto
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p.1 #19 · Formals are Boring

Doug et al - No condescension meant on my part. I apologize if that's how it came across. It is sometimes hard to inject the proper tone into a text post, even with the emoticons. Perhaps i should have emphasized my intent more: to drum up some ideas or examples of different ways to do formals, while being faithful to tradition. The rant was merely tangential to that intent.

ARDENT - couldn't agree more. I certainly have more learning to do to be where you are. not that i 'dread' the formals, but like you said- to turn it around and really look forward to them. thanks for the post

Oct 08, 2008 at 05:56 PM

Jimsokay
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p.1 #20 · Formals are Boring

Never boring, but seldom as much time as I'd like.

A moment in time with the extended family will always be cherished in the future.

Oct 08, 2008 at 06:06 PM

Evan Baines
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p.1 #21 · Formals are Boring

A wise photographer once told me something very valuable with regards to this subject:

"Ideally - eliminate the term formals from the lexicon altogether. They need be warm-hearted editorial family portraits - that convey intimacy and context. Formality is the enemy of closeness and love. "

We could all aspire to that standard.

Oct 08, 2008 at 06:12 PM

RyanFlynn
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p.1 #22 · Formals are Boring

Seems a bit ironic to talk about your age and maturity and then resort to "well I did it because he started it!". That's a bit childish.

As a "full time pro", I didn't find the OP's post condescending either. I don't generally enjoy the formals either. I LOVE portraits of the B&G, and the documentation of the day, but big group formals? no thanks. Although Red's posts make me want to improve.

Oct 08, 2008 at 06:14 PM

Andrew Welsh
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p.1 #23 · Formals are Boring

This is the part that nobody likes, but always wants and ends up getting the most enlargements of. If we had to distill our service down to the bare bones, this part of the day would remain. That is why shooters from 70 years ago shot family portraits. These pictures rate second only to the B&G alone shots. Ya can't hang an album on a wall

That said, I still need help honing this. I wish I could find that thread from last year / 2 years ago with some joke ideas to get people to laugh / loosen up. What Evan said above is helpful- a mental paradigm adjustment that can easily translate into your attitude and demeanor on the big day.

Oct 08, 2008 at 06:51 PM

dmacmillan
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p.1 #24 · Formals are Boring

VermilionPhoto wrote:
Doug et al - No condescension meant on my part. I apologize if that's how it came across.
I'm sure it's what I heard, not what you said, since others didn't hear it. I extend my apologies.

I'm also aware that my experience is in the South, which tends to prefer the more traditional, conservative approach. Folks in other areas of the country may be more open to experimentation. Formals point out the tension of trying to provide an innovative capture of the wedding day against the need, at least for some, to provide a record of the people involved. In many cases where the wedding dress is an heirloom care must be taken to present it well.

I promise to skip taking my grouch pills. Ryan was right, I should try to act my age.

Doug

Oct 08, 2008 at 07:03 PM

Sam Hassas
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p.1 #25 · Formals are Boring

Had the largest amount of formals this weekend. Count em 63 different group shots. 63 dude!!!! Family after family, OMG. I'll let you guess the nationality.

~Sam

Oct 08, 2008 at 07:05 PM


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