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nikongirl
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p.5 #1 · Taser?


They also have a zero likelihood of defending themselves from an intruder!!!!!!!

RedWhiteandRed wrote:

Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.



Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 02:07 AM


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06 AM
ksmahgrts
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p.5 #2 · Taser?


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations



Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.


respectfully......... what about their friends' houses red?

in this day and age we're never going to see a world without guns. a kid raised with respect for firearms is a kid who will walk away alive when his friends decide to mess around with a found gun.


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:14 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #3 · Taser?


nikongirl wrote:
They also have a zero likelihood of defending themselves from an intruder!!!!!!!



A good lock - a phone - and a few molecules of reason is adequate precaution.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:24 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #4 · Taser?


ksmahgrts wrote:
respectfully......... what about their friends' houses red?


Case in point. The prevalence of guns is a caricature that is best dispelled.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:25 AM
ksmahgrts
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p.5 #5 · Taser?


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
respectfully......... what about their friends' houses red?


Case in point. The prevalence of guns is a caricature that is best dispelled.


the prevalence of guns is a reality. one that is best fought with education and not avoidance.

when faced with the gravity and reality of the situation - education is the only choice.


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:29 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #6 · Taser?


ksmahgrts wrote:
the prevalence of guns is a reality. one that is best fought with education and not avoidance.


Yes, know what a gun looks like and avoid those situations. Do not contribute to the problem by purchasing a gun.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:32 AM
ksmahgrts
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p.5 #7 · Taser?


but what about the guns that are already out there?

wouldn't you prefer that the people around you know how to safely operate a firearm? or at the very least know how to make sure one if unloaded?

again, i compare it to CPR.

i know how to do it properly. i hope to never have to use that knowledge.

but if i DO have to use it and it can save a life, i'm damn glad to have the knowledge.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:39 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #8 · Taser?


ksmahgrts wrote:
but what about the guns that are already out there?\


Scrap metal is fetching top dollar.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:41 AM
Scott Mosher
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p.5 #9 · Taser?


snegron wrote:
Scott Mosher wrote:
I have a small army of these guys following me around. They're pretty inexpensive (the pay is nuts!) and nobody will notice them.

As soon as someone comes up to give me trouble (On occasion I have sent them on an Uncle Bob), they get in ready position, I give warning, and if the warning isn't heeded they open fire.



This image is copyrighted by the owner





LMAO! This has to be one of my favorite posts ever! This thread has spiralled over to the wildest depths of our imagination! I really hope the mods let it continue just to see how creative it gets!

p.s. My hat goes off to you Mr. Scott Mosher! You are a creative genius!


I should have noted (post will be edited) that I didn't PS that photo. its one thought that I've had on my computer for a while.


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:45 AM
dpun
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p.5 #10 · Taser?


It is ironic that I just joined this fine forum for photography and the first thread I reply to is related to guns.

I don't think a good lock, a phone and a few molecules of reason is going to help.

A determined burgler can get past a good lock. Someone who breaks into your house is far beyond reason, they passed the point of reason when they decided to do something violent against someone.

A cell phone can help. However I have listened to a recording of a girl who was subject to a break-in. She was on the line with a 911 dispatcher and the whole conversation was recorded. The intruder made it all the way into her bedroom and proceeded to beat her up and rape her. She was screaming for her life and all the dispatcher could do was calmly tell her that help was on the way. Pitiful.

The average response time for a "Priority 1" call at the US capital (DC Police) is somewhere in the 6-9 minute timeframe. The avg response time for NYPD is somewhere in the 4 minute timeframe. NYPD is the largest police force in the world: 35,000+ strong.

A human can bleed to death in less than 3 minutes. You do the math.

Mr RedWhiteandRed, I respect your position. If an intruder(s) breaks into your house, I will respect your position as he/they do damage to you, your loved ones and your property. I will let you dial 911 and try to reason with them. All I ask is that you respect my right to own and use a gun.

I carry OC spray and a Ernest Emerson CQC7 whenever I have all my stuff with me.

Dave

Sep 01, 2008 at 03:02 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #11 · Taser?


dpun wrote:
I don't think a good lock, a phone and a few molecules of reason is going to help.


Keeps one far safer than the loaded gun. Far safer.

Sep 01, 2008 at 03:12 AM
Scott Mosher
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p.5 #12 · Taser?


I have a sword in my room that I could use for protection.

No really, its a civil war era sword that was given to me by my grandparents. I'm still waiting for someone to pull a knife on me in my house so I could pull a Crocodile Dundee on them

Sep 01, 2008 at 03:17 AM
pasph
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p.5 #13 · Taser?


Shoot or be shot as the normal way of life....do you feel comfortable?

Sep 01, 2008 at 03:35 AM
Romain Nowakow
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p.5 #14 · Taser?


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations



Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.


Unless a gun is brought into that house by a criminal seeking to commit a crime, and then without a weapon to defend oneself you are at the mercy of the criminal.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

RMN

Sep 01, 2008 at 03:37 AM
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Fred Miranda
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p.5 #15 · Taser?


This thread has drifted into emotionalism and politics instead of being a positive and supportive discussion of photography. Please, avoid the gun ownership discussion and stay on topic. Thanks for your cooperation.

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 04:47 AM


Sep 01, 2008 at 04:44 AM
dpun
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p.5 #16 · Taser?


Fred- I probably did not put my best foot forward when my first post goes off-topic. Please accept my apologies in advance.

Back to Nikongirl's concerns about security of her equipment (and I hope this helps other photographers to think about their security options)

Taser- It seems like a miracle solution, a non-lethal method to stop criminals. However, other people have pointed out that it won't protect against multiple attackers. There is also a time constraint. I will add this: there are two variations- the taser that shoots darts and the stun-gun version where you have to stick the device against their skin.

The problem with the stun-gun version is that you have to touch the criminal with it. If they are that close to you, you're already in really big trouble. The shooting darts version is relatively accurate...as long as your aim is accurate. If you miss, the device is useless. Criminals have also figured out a way to stop the darts from penetrating their clothing and making contact with their skin...and making contact with their skin is how the electrical current shocks them.

OC Spray (mace, pepper-spray..etc..etc..) If you're going to get this, get one that is dummy-proof to operate. The better designed canisters have a groove that naturally guides your thumb to press it, which means the nozzle is facing the criminal....not you. The best analogy I can give is...the card release latch on a Nikon D3. By looking on the back of a D3, you can see a latch that invites you to push your finger down upon to get the memory card out. You should be able to close your eyes, grab the sprayer in your hand and feel your thumb naturally slide into the grove to release the spray.

Spray is the operative word. I know it's not the first thing you're thinking about but...you have to consider wind conditions when using a spray. On a really windy day, you risk some of the spray coming back at you and temporarily blinding yourself. Also, criminals actually spray themselves repeatedly in order to get themselves used to the spray and once they are used to it...all bets are off. There is a portion of the population that do not react to spray, it's genetics. Find someone who can train you to use the spray....preferably a police officer friend.

I keep my equipment in a non-descrip rolling box and my hands free. If I feel threatened, my weak hand reaches inside a pocket and I have my thumb over the release lever. If the criminal(s) attack, it comes out. If they get inside my 21 foot personal defense radius, the knife comes out on my strong hand and...well...you can imagine the rest.

I know I am insured. If it's a level playing field, I will fight. If it's not level, I will give up but I'm still ready to fight anyway. Some gangs have started "initiations" where they have to go out and purposely hurt someone in order to prove themselves and become a member.

Whatever security method you choose, make sure to check with your local authorities on the plan....just to make sure it's legal for the town you live it. Also get trained on your method and practice if you can.

Dave

Sep 01, 2008 at 06:17 AM
snegron
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p.5 #17 · Taser?


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations



Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.


So then, if an armed home invasion takes place, then what? We turn into sheep and place ourselves at the mercy of the assaiants? Sorry, no can do!

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:37 PM
paulhodson
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p.5 #18 · Taser?


Fred did ask for this not to be gun ownership discussion.

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:41 PM
paulhodson
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p.5 #19 · Taser?


dpun wrote:
The best analogy I can give is...the card release latch on a Nikon D3. By looking on the back of a D3, you can see a latch that invites you to push your finger down upon to get the memory card out. You should be able to close your eyes, grab the sprayer in your hand and feel your thumb naturally slide into the grove to release the spray.
Dave


On no! Now it will turn into a Nikon/Canon card release argument!

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:42 PM
ChrisDM
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p.5 #20 · Taser?


I had my first sketchy photo assignment last week, where I was asked to get a nighttime shot of a less reputable downtown community. So I was out there after dark walking around with my 1Ds3 on a tripod over my shoulder. I was thinking that I may either have to hand it over, or use it as a weapon...

When I hike and backpack for landscape photography I almost always carry a gun for protection, against 2 and 4 legged creatures. But I don't see myself walking into a wedding, or walking around downtown, with a weapon. In that case I'd just hand over the goods and ask for my life in return.

Also, the Canon card release mechanism is obviously superior

Chris M
www.imagineimagery.com

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:05 PM
snegron
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p.5 #21 · Taser?


dpun wrote:

Taser- It seems like a miracle solution, a non-lethal method to stop criminals. However, other people have pointed out that it won't protect against multiple attackers. There is also a time constraint. I will add this: there are two variations- the taser that shoots darts and the stun-gun version where you have to stick the device against their skin.

The problem with the stun-gun version is that you have to touch the criminal with it. If they are that close to you, you're already in really big trouble. The shooting darts version is relatively accurate...as long as your aim is accurate. If you miss, the device is useless. Criminals have also figured out a way to stop the darts from penetrating their clothing and making contact with their skin...and making contact with their skin is how the electrical current shocks them.

OC Spray (mace, pepper-spray..etc..etc..) If you're going to get this, get one that is dummy-proof to operate. The better designed canisters have a groove that naturally guides your thumb to press it, which means the nozzle is facing the criminal....not you. The best analogy I can give is...the card release latch on a Nikon D3. By looking on the back of a D3, you can see a latch that invites you to push your finger down upon to get the memory card out. You should be able to close your eyes, grab the sprayer in your hand and feel your thumb naturally slide into the grove to release the spray.

Spray is the operative word. I know it's not the first thing you're thinking about but...you have to consider wind conditions when using a spray. On a really windy day, you risk some of the spray coming back at you and temporarily blinding yourself. Also, criminals actually spray themselves repeatedly in order to get themselves used to the spray and once they are used to it...all bets are off. There is a portion of the population that do not react to spray, it's genetics. Find someone who can train you to use the spray....preferably a police officer friend.



Dave





I mostly agree with you except for tha part about how the darts of the Tasar need to be in contact with the skin in order to shock them. Not true. The Tasar has been used on people with large thick coats and the effect is the same. When both darts shoot out there is an arch effect between the tips of both darts. The farther apart these darts are from each other, the larger the arch. Clothes or no clothes, the electric current will seek to meet thereby causing extreme pain to whatever comes between those two dart tips.

As I mentioned before about the pepper spray, they are not failproof. They do malfunction and are not 100% effective on everyone. When a person is under the influence of crack cocaine, pepper sprays are not as effective. Chances are that someone who is attempting to rob you of your equipment has a substance abuse problem and is looking to sell or trade your equipment for his drug of choice. If that person is high on whatever drug he uses, chances are that the pepper spary is only going to make him angrier and more irrational. If that person is not high at the time, then there is a better chance of the spray being more effective.

The bottom line is that most of us carry expensive equipment and are at risk of being robbed at one time or another. The choice to turn that experience into one of self defense is one that you must make depending on the circumstances. If the criminal takes your equipment without threatening your life, then there is no justifiable reason to use deadly force on him. If that criminal robs you of your equipment AND decides to attempt to terminate your life in the process, then I don't see any other choice but to defend yourself by using deadly force.

In a rough city I used to live in there was a trend of violent carjackings. People were being robbed at gunpoint to steal their cars. It got to the point that victims were being shot even when they complied. Many victims stated that the criminals worked in teams and were saying "let me shoot this guy just to see him jump" even when the victims were begging for them to take their cars, money, valuables but please not shoot them. They were shot anyway. Those criminals were usually high on crack and were very violent. Many victims (those who survived) stated that despite the fact that they complied with the criminals's demands, they were still shot anyway.

Again, having a defense device when photographing weddings is not a bad idea, but you should have a clear notion of when to escalate your use of force if needed.


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06 PM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.5 #22 · Taser?


snegron wrote:
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
ksmahgrts wrote:
kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations



Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.


So then, if an armed home invasion takes place, then what? We turn into sheep and place ourselves at the mercy of the assaiants? Sorry, no can do!


That is the safest option - and the most expeditious way to end that or a photo heist. And, while you are at it - grab a few snaps.


Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 02:45 PM


Sep 01, 2008 at 02:42 PM
dpun
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p.5 #23 · Taser?


I am a Canon 1dm2 shooter but I find the Nikon D3 card door release mechanism to be easier. Canon's design forces the photographer to twist using their thumb and index finger, it's a "safer" design. Nikon design allows the door to be opened with the thumb only, it's a quicker/easier design. Depends on your priorities, my priorities are speed. The Nikon design is pretty safe already because the latch is covered and it's very hard to toggle the latch because it's recessed.

So I jump in with a gun post and then I start a door-latch-cover-release design argument. O G*d, I must be on Fred's short list already.

Dave



Sep 01, 2008 at 02:54 PM
Evan Baines
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p.5 #24 · Taser?


For what its worth:
For those of you who elect to maintain any type of weapon to protect your camera gear, you almost certainly need to train on that equipment more often and realistically than you currently do so to effectively employ it under stress. The vast majority of self-defense weapon owners haven't the slightest idea how much training it takes to respond appropriately with that weapon in a life threatening situation. If you're not willing to make a commitment to intense and continual training under realistic conditions, then you and those around you are certainly better off with you NOT carrying a weapon.

I say this as someone with "above average" experience with weapons under stressful situations.

Edited by Evan Baines on Sep 01, 2008 at 09:08 AM GMT

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 03:08 PM


Sep 01, 2008 at 03:02 PM
swanny338
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p.5 #25 · Taser?


panos.v wrote:
Just get a credit card.


Ha, I had never seen that one.... Seagal movies are so ridiculous... I mean seriously a credit card knife...


Sep 01, 2008 at 03:07 PM

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