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jerryrock
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p.2 #1 · PC or Mac????


mdude85 wrote:
"Creative professionals" use Macs because the design industry has trended toward using them for the last 10 or 15 years. It is quite difficult for the industry to make the switch now, but that does not mean using Mac is a "necessity." It is simply a matter of course.


When you pursue a degree in Graphic Design or Photography, the College or University will be teaching the Adobe Creative Suite on Apple computers running Mac OSX.

When you are hired by a Graphic Design firm, you are expected to know how to use a Mac as well as PC.

So the answer is yes it is a necessity.

Jul 09, 2008 at 06:55 PM
polarbare
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p.2 #2 · PC or Mac????


hehe.. another one of these eh?
My only contributions will be:
1)I own a MacBook Pro and Several PCs - I like both but will continue building PCs as my primary computers. The Macbook Pro was a convenience issue.

2) Supposedly Windows crashes constantly, is a nightmare to get it to do what you want, and is just a virus-catch waiting to happen.
My Windows computers never crash, i don't even have A/V software installed, and it does everything I want with minimal effort on my part and i have both XP and Vista running flawlessly.

As I've said before, if Microsoft only had to support 8-10 hardware configurations instead of the tens of thousands (or more) configurations that they do support, it would be as "stable/easy/just works/insert your macism here" as OS X.

In reality, they're both fine operating systems and it's a matter of preference in how you interact with it. Photoshop/Premiere/FinalCut Pro/etc/etc/etc all work equally well on both platforms so flip a coin.


Edited by polarbare on Jul 09, 2008 at 03:18 PM GMT

Edited by polarbare on Jul 09, 2008 at 03:18 PM GMT

Edited on Jul 09, 2008 at 08:18 PM


Jul 09, 2008 at 08:17 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #3 · PC or Mac????


lordarka wrote:
mDude: your belief that the "cache[t]" [sp] in owning a Mac lies in the hardware is the kind of statement that leads people like Ben to question the general depth of your platform knowledge. Yours is a common refrain among hardware-centered users, who often display a real insensitivity to poorly designed software. This is perhaps understandable, since software design isn't something that neatly fits onto a spec-sheet.


lordarka wrote:
mDude: your belief that the "cache[t]" [sp] in owning a Mac lies in the hardware is the kind of statement that leads people like Ben to question the general depth of your platform knowledge.

Arka C.


Huh? I never said that. I said the cachet in owning a Mac is owning a branded machine -- that is, owning a piece of white or brushed aluminum with the glowing Apple on it. The product design is one major thing that draws people to Macs from Windows machines. The hardware is secondary -- most of it is made by ASUS anyway -- being available in such consumer avenues as Newegg.com.

My platform knowledge is very deep, thanks -- I am not some mere "fanboy."

Jul 09, 2008 at 08:18 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #4 · PC or Mac????


jerryrock wrote:
mdude85 wrote:
"Creative professionals" use Macs because the design industry has trended toward using them for the last 10 or 15 years. It is quite difficult for the industry to make the switch now, but that does not mean using Mac is a "necessity." It is simply a matter of course.


When you pursue a degree in Graphic Design or Photography, the College or University will be teaching the Adobe Creative Suite on Apple computers running Mac OSX.

When you are hired by a Graphic Design firm, you are expected to know how to use a Mac as well as PC.

So the answer is yes it is a necessity.


Learning how to use a Mac - A necessity

Using a Mac - Not a necessity

Quite a difference.


Edited by mdude85 on Jul 09, 2008 at 03:36 PM GMT

Edited on Jul 09, 2008 at 08:36 PM


Jul 09, 2008 at 08:19 PM
polarbare
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p.2 #5 · PC or Mac????


As a former builder of PC desktops (Intel BX, AMD Socket 939, Intel Socket D), I really can't say I miss the days where I felt compelled to open up my system, inhale dust, and snap components in and out of the slots to optimize performance.

Which you only need to do in order to upgrade your RAM/video card/hard drives, just like on a Mac.

Jul 09, 2008 at 08:21 PM
lordarka
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p.2 #6 · PC or Mac????


mdude85 wrote:
Huh? I never said that. I said the cachet in owning a Mac is owning a branded machine -- that is, owning a piece of white or brushed aluminum with the glowing Apple on it. The product design is one major thing that draws people to Macs from Windows machines. The hardware is secondary -- most of it is made by ASUS anyway -- being available in such consumer avenues as Newegg.com.

My platform knowledge is very deep, thanks -- I am not some mere "fanboy."


What you said was....

"Not to mention that the cache of owning a Mac is not in using Mac OS but having physical possession of the branded machines."

My critique of your generalization is that you failed to consider the appeal of the software design alongside the hardware design. The former is much more important than the latter in distinguishing Apple's computers from their competition.

"Cachet" comes not simply from owning an attractive, branded machine. Were Macs nothing more than svelte, brushed aluminum Windows machines with pulsing white buttons, they would not have so loyal a following. The OS is crucial to the machine's appeal and long-term desirability. .

Many companies on the Windows side have attempted to design beautiful machines in an attempt to build brand identity (Toshiba Toughbooks and Sony VAIOs come to mind), but neither has the following that Apple's machines do. I personally feel that Apple machines are better designed, but that's not the real draw of the platform; the OS is.

Arka C.

Jul 09, 2008 at 09:33 PM
Rob Tracy
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p.2 #7 · PC or Mac????


ghouston13 is pretty much on target.

I'd like to add that a stock MacBook Pro is fairly close in price to an equivalent Dell. Apple gets you in the upgrades. Just build a system and you'll quickly see how much the prices are out of line. Apple ram is the most obvious. If you upgrade, buy from Newegg and do it yourself.

I think a lot of people find, myself included, the OSX environment to be more productive. Now if they would just add a package manager... nevermind that. I prefer to use OSX for just about everything except gaming.

As for the virus/malware/trojen problems, both systems have ugly vulnerabilities. The security edge goes to UNIX but you will see more malicious critters for OSX as it gains market share.

Stability? It's a wash. I have to force quit an application in OSX about as often as in Vista. Which is very rarely.

I will say that Photoshop CS3, Microsoft Office (2008 Mac) and Capture NX is tad more responsive on an lesser equipped Windows PC. It's nothing that makes any difference but the feeling is there. It bugged me a first but I got over it.

Now I need to stop buying computers and save for a 600mm prime.












Jul 09, 2008 at 09:44 PM
Mike Pipes
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p.2 #8 · PC or Mac????


Bah.. enough of this nerdy computer talk. Let's all go shoot something!!

Jul 09, 2008 at 11:26 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #9 · PC or Mac????


lordarka wrote:

My critique of your generalization is that you failed to consider the appeal of the software design alongside the hardware design. The former is much more important than the latter in distinguishing Apple's computers from their competition.

"Cachet" comes not simply from owning an attractive, branded machine. Were Macs nothing more than svelte, brushed aluminum Windows machines with pulsing white buttons, they would not have so loyal a following. The OS is crucial to the machine's appeal and long-term desirability.



Software is a usability issue. I'm not "failing to consider" the appeal of the software design, but everyone knows that software is not typically the first consideration of most users who purchase a Mac. And Apple knows this. Else, they would start loading Mac OS on Dell and Sony systems. But of course the branded machine is integral to the cachet. It is no coincidence that white and brushed alumnium Macbooks have historically sold far better than their black cohorts.

Macs have a loyal following among a vocal minority for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the desire to counter the mainstream. I will agree that the OS design is in the top 5 reasons to own a Mac....


Edited on Jul 10, 2008 at 12:47 PM


Jul 10, 2008 at 12:42 PM
tived
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p.2 #10 · PC or Mac????


jerryrock wrote:When you pursue a degree in Graphic Design or Photography, the College or University will be teaching the Adobe Creative Suite on Apple computers running Mac OSX.

When you are hired by a Graphic Design firm, you are expected to know how to use a Mac as well as PC.

So the answer is yes it is a necessity.


Jerry et al....

You usually come with very good advise, but I really have a problem with your comments to this thread.
************
Disclaimer!!!
Jerry, this isn't meant to be a personal attack on you!
**********
Sure you may be expected to know how to use both a Mac or a PC base computer, but that by no means mean that you have to work on either. I guess if you are good enough, they will have to buy you the toys that you choose to work on, after all it is about the outcome, not the tool.

It is common knowledge that Apple have had the upper hand in the graphics or indeed the creative computing field, most kids these days learn on PC's and sure MAC is offering very good incentives to educational institutions, so kids at UNI, around the globe, learn on a Mac and hopefully will insist on a mac when they are employed! Smart thinking.... but you still don't have to use a Mac to make good artistic work on a computer!

I too, see this far too often, a photographers studio, will make the switch from PC to Mac...because they look so cool...but hey, unless you place a little Apple sticker on the print or disk as they go out, no one, I mean NO ONE could tell you its made on a Mac or PC for that matter.

On the brighter side, if you like Mac, by all means use one. Too often people who have this too one-sided Mac view that Mac's are the only way. Have never really used an equal PC.
There are some really nice features on the Mac OS and there are some really shit ones on the Windows and vs.

Apple only have to cater for a small hardware market, one which they almost dictate themselves, for better and for worse. Windows have to cater for a much greater market, with an almost endless combinations of components - this freedom is also their downfall.

Any idiot can use a Mac, any idiot drive an automatic car...now apart from the shortcut keys what is the difference between using Photoshop on a mac or a pc? How does using Photoshop or illustrator or Maya or Autocad differ from one OS to another?

Do you become less creative because you use XYZ machine? or XYZ software?

I guess, if you choose to work on a 286 PC and expect it to fly like a Mac Pro, well then surely you are going to run into some differences. But if you equip your computer to suit your needs, well, then you the user is the limiting factor, not the hardware or software.

Mac/PC at work and PC at home...have every now and then played with the thought of changing to Mac, but either the drones at the Mac store has chased me away with their single minded vision or I haven't been able to see the advantage.

The Mac Pro is a pleasure to work on, but so is my equal PC with either windows XP x64 or Vista x64.

I choose PC's because, I can make changes to it as I see fit, much like a drag-racer does to his car....however, tell me to open the hood on my car and give it an oil change and I freak out,....I am sure many Mac people feel the same way about their computer.

Choose your own poison

Henrik


Jul 11, 2008 at 09:18 AM
jerryrock
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p.2 #11 · PC or Mac????


tived wrote:Jerry et al....

You usually come with very good advise, but I really have a problem with your comments to this thread.
************
Disclaimer!!!
Jerry, this isn't meant to be a personal attack on you!
**********
Henrik


Henrik,

If this was not meant as a personal attack, why single me out listing my name at the top of your post? My contribution to this thread is for the benefit of the OP and is from my personal experience while obtaining a degree in Graphic Design. Yes, I had to work on Macs, it was required. I was a hardened PC user having owned PCs for over 18 years and came to the realization that the Mac was a better choice for my new career. My brother had been touting the advantages of Macs for years and I would always come up with reasons why they would not work for me. My college Professor advised me to purchase a Mac and learn the OS as it was required for my field. The advent of the intel based Mac changed my whole outlook on the subject. I was no longer limited to using OSX but could also run Windows natively. I soon found that there were very few programs that did not have Mac counterparts.

My MacBook Pro dual boots with OSX and Vista Ultimate 64bit. My old PC is now dedicated to run Media Center for my entertainment center. The MacBook Pro runs Windows faster than any other laptop. I find Apple products to be better designed with the best technical support available. Did I mention that Apple invented color managed systems?

This is why I recommend Macs to Graphic Professionals.

Jerry




Jul 11, 2008 at 03:56 PM
PhotoGuy76
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p.2 #12 · PC or Mac????


I ran a Microsoft Network and 50 Workstations before I quit and became a photographer and I had those babies running. I have since switched to Mac and can honestly say that colours are superb, easy to use, easy to delete applications, intuitive and, it was my son who "converted" me. I am not snob or Microsoft hater, but just hated being the guinea pig while Microsoft worked out the bugs and hated constantly watching my rear end for viruses. It is probably a case of "six or half-a-dozen" but even though Mac may be pricey up front, the peace of mind, the service and quality is unmatched.

Jul 11, 2008 at 04:30 PM
butchM
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p.2 #13 · PC or Mac????


jerryrock wrote:
Did I mention that Apple invented color managed systems?


Also, in the early days of photo manipulation, graphic design, page layout, etc., the top apps like PS, PageMaker and the like were only available in Mac OS. Many of us who have been in the field since those days were weaned on Macs because of this. Sure Windows based PCs are equal in abilities and less expensive in many cases these days, but I don't buy and use Macs solely based on bottom line based on the purchase price. I have bitched and moaned every time I have to spend what it costs to own Mac hardware. Until at the end of the life cycle of that hardware, I examine what I was able to create vs my investment as well as the ease of use in getting there. The finished product and the user friendly means of achieving that product has always been well worth the investment. Every Apple machine I have purchased long outlived it's expected useful capacity. There is more to the Mac picture than meets the eye in many cases. While it may not be "necessary" to use a Mac or OS X to work in the field, I for one, much prefer and enjoy using it as my platform of choice. I also think you will find relatively few who have made the switch to Mac that regret doing so.

Jul 11, 2008 at 05:56 PM
vkalia
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p.2 #14 · PC or Mac????


Hey, techies can argue all they want about how stable Windows is, etc. etc. I always struggled with crashes, progressively-slowing OS and generally clunky way of doing things on Windows. Switched to a Mac last year and I can just work a lot more efficiently. Things work the way they are, and I can tailor the OS (Expose, Space, Quicksilver) to really make my computer time a lot more productive.

I dont like spending time on computers - but my time is a lot more efficient on a Mac. I am never going back to Windows - and my only regret is not switching earlier.

What you do is up to you - this is just my experience. Now we have 2 Macbooks, a Mac Mini and I am in the process of replacing all our work computers with Macs. I can set up and manage networks myself in a few minutes, I can wirelessly and automatically back up all my work onto storage drives, etc. etc. Yep, life is sure easier.

Vandit

Jul 11, 2008 at 07:56 PM
BluePixel
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p.2 #15 · PC or Mac????


Mac !

Jul 11, 2008 at 09:09 PM
rodeostore
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p.2 #16 · PC or Mac????


I thought all real computer people used Linux and open source software and that Mac's were for the stinking rich and Windows was for the corporate rats?

Windows and Mac's are both fine for normal users. It's a matter of taste, kind of like Burger King vs. McDonald's.

Jul 11, 2008 at 09:56 PM
400d
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p.2 #17 · PC or Mac????


rodeostore wrote:
I thought all real computer people used Linux and open source software and that Mac's were for the stinking rich and Windows was for the corporate rats?

Windows and Mac's are both fine for normal users. It's a matter of taste, kind of like Burger King vs. McDonald's.

+1!
PC have always worked for me, at least for the last 15 years; I always like understanding how things work beneath the surface. There's a very common fallacy: PC = Windows
Yes, MS dominates the PC market for almost two decades, but by no means they are equal.

Oh, I always find this mesmeric:
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Edited on Jul 11, 2008 at 11:11 PM


Jul 11, 2008 at 11:03 PM
Ben Horne
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p.2 #18 · PC or Mac????


mdude85 wrote:
Ben Horne wrote:

1) Those who vocally support Mac computers have almost always used both PCs as well as Macs, and chose to buy a Mac.

2) Those who vocally support PC computers usually have not used a Mac.


There's absolutely no truth to these statements -- if anything, vocal supporters of Windows (PC is an archaic way to denote a Windows computer) have tended to use a variety of systems including Mac, Windows, and perhaps an open source option such as Linux.

People who are NOT vocal supporters of either system have tended to use Windows computers exclusively.



I am always very careful not to make absolute statements. Notice how I said the world "almost" in point #1, and I said "usually" in #2. I did not make any absolute statements, which leaves room for the exceptions to the rule. There are always exceptions to the rule.

You replied by saying that there is "absolutely no truth to these statements." Thus, you have used an absolute --- and very literally so. When such statements are made, it typically does not contribute to the conversation in a beneficial way.

I have used PCs for most of my experience using computers, but I have switched to Mac about 5 years ago. According to your own words, I must not exist because there is absolutely no truth to my statements.

Be very careful how you use your words. I have learned in life to be cautious of people who use absolute statements, and take their opinions as a grain of salt.

Jul 11, 2008 at 11:17 PM
lordarka
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p.2 #19 · PC or Mac????


tived wrote:
Sure you may be expected to know how to use both a Mac or a PC base computer, but that by no means mean that you have to work on either. I guess if you are good enough, they will have to buy you the toys that you choose to work on, after all it is about the outcome, not the tool.


That's a truism. The importance of outcome or product has no bearing on the quality of tools used to generate the product.

...but you still don't have to use a Mac to make good artistic work on a computer!

I don't think Jerry or anyone else here ever said that a Mac is a prerequisite to making great art. What Jerry did say is that Mac proficiency is essential in the art business, where Macs predominate.

On the brighter side, if you like Mac, by all means use one. Too often people who have this too one-sided Mac view that Mac's are the only way. Have never really used an equal PC.

Nonsense. Most Mac users today have used or still use Windows PCs at work; in fact, most "switchers" are inspired to do so after using relatively modern Windows computers.

Apple only have to cater for a small hardware market, one which they almost dictate themselves, for better and for worse. Windows have to cater for a much greater market, with an almost endless combinations of components - this freedom is also their downfall.

While this fact is well understood, the hardware limitations Mac users face are not as onerous as most Windows system users believe. I also don't believe that most photographers and artists, for whom computers are a means rather than an end, lie awake at night wondering if the latest in boutique hardware technologies will function on their primary computers. "Choice" is great if you leverage it, but the majority of Windows users do not explore the infinity of hardware choices available to them. Gamers might, of course, but they are a performance-oriented minority.

Indeed, among those who like to upgrade computers, I see more people keeping their "expensive" Macs for five years or more, upgrading CPUs, RAM and video along the way.

Just the same, Mac users reap certain benefits from a limited hardware subset, though I will admit that, given the challenges it faces, Microsoft has done an admirable job of building a stable operating system. Secure and ergonomic? Well those are entirely different challenges where Microsoft continually fails to meet the mark...

Any idiot can use a Mac, any idiot drive an automatic car...now apart from the shortcut keys what is the difference between using Photoshop on a mac or a pc? How does using Photoshop or illustrator or Maya or Autocad differ from one OS to another?

Any idiot can use a Windows machine too, but not everyone appreciates the UI of either Mac or Windows systems with much depth. In response to your question, I am a habitual Expose and Spaces (virtual desktop) user, and both go a long way toward easing the management of multiple content-rich application windows. To my knowledge, there is no true Windows equivalent of these window and desktop management features.

But if you equip your computer to suit your needs, well, then you the user is the limiting factor, not the hardware or software.

This statement exemplifies most Windows' users incredible tolerance for poor ergonomics and shoddy software interface design. I can get more work done on Macs because of the software design, not in spite of it. Quite often, people who say that software makes no difference haven't used a Mac very deeply, and certainly haven't explored the wonder that is Mac Shareware. The Mac Shareware community never ceases to amaze me; smalltime developers, catering to a community that values stability and usability, can routinely create software gems that elude companies having billions of dollars in development budgets. I include Apple in this criticism, as its latest apps are no stranger to bloat and overly complex design.

I use Windows and Apple systems at a fairly advanced user (not administrator) level, and I can say quite honestly that the software options and standards on MacOS facilitate productivity. To blame productivity limits on the user completely ignores the value of intelligent software design. As artists and knowledge workers, we use our computers to complete very complex tasks; software design can either facilitiate or hinder the rapid completion of such tasks. If you believe that your productivity begins and ends with the RAM, GHz, and GBs in your computer, you underestimate the value of sensible and efficient user interfaces.

If this argument was about the workflow differences between 3D Studio v.4 in DOS 6.22 and Lightwave v. 7.5 in Windows, I somehow doubt you would resort to the "user and hardware is everything" argument.

Arka C.


Jul 11, 2008 at 11:18 PM
400d
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p.2 #20 · PC or Mac????


jmphotography wrote:
I am currently a PC guy for my photography business. I build my own PC's. Currently have a Core2Duo 6700 with 4g of ram. I am mostly doing photoshop CS3 and some business apps like Quickbooks pro. I am thinking of going to an imac. Can anyone share any experiences, either positive or negative? I guess my biggest drawback is the investment in software that I currently own in PC.
Thanks

Doesn't CS3 works perfectly on your PC? Not fast enough? I am set with the e6850 with 4gb DDR2 800 running CS3, of course it can be better with e8500 and a set of RAID.

Edited on Jul 11, 2008 at 11:33 PM


Jul 11, 2008 at 11:32 PM
butchM
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p.2 #21 · PC or Mac????


I remember my girl friend making the statement, "Well, there are some things you can't do on a Mac," I responded, "What," ... she didn't have an answer ... sure there are those apps that are proprietary on one platform or the other, but in the end ... nobody cares.

What boils down to the "Mac vs PC" answer is what works best for you. The sun will rise tomorrow regardless to which platform you use.

When, at the end of the day, you and your clients are happy with the finished product, who cares which platform you use?



Jul 12, 2008 at 01:58 AM
mauriceramirez
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p.2 #22 · PC or Mac????


As a former real estate company owner I know that all MLS interface software is Windows-compatible only. While you can browse listings on Macs, to write up contracts, listing agreements, title company forms, even the state regulatory forms are always PC-only. Fields wouldn't show up, browsers would crash, etc. Local board tech support even laughed at me when I told them I insisted on Macs in our office.

Which is too bad, since most REALTORS and office assistants would be much better off using Macs in that line of profession, for their looks, turnkey wireless, speed, stability and the easy learning curve. Our clients would always ooh and aah over listing presentations and signings that I did on our sleek apple laptops and screens. Realtors are inherently the perfect match for OS X. Too bad nobody bothered to make a dedicated Real Estate Office Suite type of product during they heyday--they would have made a fortune off of all of us.

-m

Edited on Jul 12, 2008 at 03:31 AM


Jul 12, 2008 at 03:30 AM
Nick Klofkorn
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p.2 #23 · PC or Mac????


nikon or canon?

Jul 12, 2008 at 04:14 AM
tived
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p.2 #24 · PC or Mac????


Jerry,

Point taken - regarding using your name at the top! Please accept my apology on that count.

Henrik

PS: We will have to agree to disagree on the Mac as a must for computer graphics art work


Jul 12, 2008 at 04:35 PM
tived
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p.2 #25 · PC or Mac????


Arka,

Thanks for your insight - How do we determine how efficient we are? I am not trying to unusually cheeky but, how do we determine that I am more or less efficient then you or someone else. Where is the benchmark...?

I usually upgrade my machines every 2-3 years, this time around the cycle will probably be longer as I don't see a need to improve on my hardware, but more so on my workflow, in other words, the machine is most of the time faster then I am or is able to complete most tasks faster then I am able to keep up, most of the time...sure, when I work on 2+ Gb images, it struggles.

I am using a Mac five days a week, doing very similar tasks on this as I do on my PC work machine... apart from the Mac being pretty and quieter isn't offering that much more. There are many things that I like, but not really enough to push me over, despite having considered it several times. Maybe next time...

cheers everyone, go out and make some images and some dollars!

Henrik

Jul 12, 2008 at 04:48 PM

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