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Archive 2008 · TOO many attaboys

Jeffrey
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p.1 #1 · TOO many attaboys


I've become less and less pleased with one function of the presentation forums, especially the Landscape forum, with regards to its value as a place of learning, and the lack of knowledgeable constructive criticism, or more properly stated, the abundance of incorrect positive comments from unqualified individuals. There are many people who post their images there hoping to get good, sound advice from experienced, trained photographers in order to improve their skills. Sadly, there is a distinct group of members that spend most of their day at this site, giving glowing positive comments to images that clearly are not deserving of those types of comments. I find this not only annoying, but counter-productive to one of the main purposes of the forum. In fact, many people praise EVERY image posted. They may not have any idea what the value of a proper critique is, nor are they able to provide one. This habit is destructive to the progress of many new and young photographers who come here for advice, support, and valuable critiques.

Yes, yes, yes, I know all about how photography is 'art' and that it is subjective to the viewer. It is one thing to simply like an image (and to say so in the thread), whether it is poorly crafted or not, but it is a terrible mistake to praise the composition, tonalities, processing, etc. when it is obviously (to the trained, experienced or educated photographer) lacking in some important ways. This only encourages the poster to continue making the same mistakes again, when there is an opportunity to make it a valuable learning experience. I like to see the occasional healthy discussion of photographic craft, often using a posted image as an example, with the participants being careful and courteous as to not offend the poster or each other. Even though I consider myself a fairly experienced and trained photographer, there are lots of folks on these forums that also understand the fundamentals of fine photography who do often make valuable and useful constructive criticisms.

Please, people, consider this before you continue to atttaboy everything you see. I welcome everyone's comments on this subject.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey Sipress, Landscape Forum Moderator.




Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 01:26 PM



Jun 29, 2008 at 01:24 PM
csm
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p.1 #2 · TOO many attaboys


I agree...and my pet pieve, constant, non-stop complaining on the Canon board...just non-stop whinning. Even from people that don't switch systems...they just stay and bitch.

You know, in real life, nobody wants to be around people like that. When I mistakenly hire them, I fire them. They are drag on everyone else. Same here on FM, I'm almost done with FM...SOOO much bitching about every aspect of equipment, what the heck? And over half the fussers would not know a good photograph or how to take one for god, love or money.

And your point is well taken. We have/had that on the Sports board too. I only do when the photos are only worthy of praise...and some are.

Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 02:57 PM



Jun 29, 2008 at 02:56 PM
paulhodson
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p.1 #3 · TOO many attaboys


Total agreement.


Jun 29, 2008 at 03:55 PM
Ariel Bravy
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p.1 #4 · TOO many attaboys


Agreed.

It's interesting... People first get upset at being criticized and told they're wrong so everyone then flips to the other extreme and starts overpraising each other in an effort to gain approval and make each other happy. What happens is that people can see right through this charade. It's lacking in a simple thing called honesty.

Loving people does not imply that you're always sweet and kind with them. If a mother sees her child running out into a busy street, she would shout out to her child and quickly pull him or her back, not out of anger or judgment but simply out of Love.

It is okay to be honest with people and tell them what you think. We're here to grow together and become better photographers. Compliments and slaps on the back are great too, but when they start superseding our own evolution and stunting our growth, it's time to do something about it.

This seems to come up every few months. Those who are part of the landscape forum mutual masturbation group get really defensive, while those outside of it jump on the attack.

Hey, we're all on the same side here. No need to create a you vs. me mentality. We're all looking to create and enjoy beautiful landscape photographs.

With that said, given that we would like to improve upon our own skills, let's simply be honest with another, not out of trying to feel superior by cutting down another's work, but simply out of appreciation and Love of the other and of the artform we all are a part of.



Ariel

Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 03:58 PM



Jun 29, 2008 at 03:56 PM
Jeffrey
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p.1 #5 · TOO many attaboys


Shane, I know every forum is loaded with bellyachers, especially the gear forums. Let's keep this thread on track. It's about critiques and learning.....

Ariel, thank you for your participation. Agree!



Jun 29, 2008 at 04:23 PM
EltonTeng
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p.1 #6 · TOO many attaboys


How about making a sticky on the Landscape forum to make the point?

Not many people know about the existence of this forum.



Jun 29, 2008 at 04:35 PM
csm
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p.1 #7 · TOO many attaboys


Jeffrey wrote:
Shane, I know every forum is loaded with bellyachers, especially the gear forums. Let's keep this thread on track. It's about critiques and learning.....


Jeffrey, I don't think anyone is going to disagree with what you said, who would? You are however, being a Mod here, in a position to actually do something useful unlike the masses who are not Mods. My suggestion at the end of this post.

Critiques or not does go in cycles as already pointed out. People generally don't like to hear critiques, unless they have been in an academic environment where critiques are common and a useful learning tool. Where getting past the personal nature of what is often viewed as a criticism is mandatory.

Giving a critique takes time to do. So if one contributes critiques for some time (I did honest critiques for a long time in the sports forum so have experience here) and it is either not received well or ignored, then over time, a person loses motivation to take more time doing it.

Suggest that it would be good if a person offers a critique, then tell them something, at least thanks for taking the time.

Second, give suggestions on how to give a critique. Simply saying a photo is crummy is not a critique. A critique is a non-personal review of a work. A complete critique includes ways to improve as well, which at a minimum, established that the person giving it has the knowledge to make a valid critique.

Maybe you should make a sticky on the Landscape Forum defining a critique, what is the decorum for making one a receiving one, and what exactly is expected and why it is helpful to all to have meaningful critiques.



Jun 29, 2008 at 04:42 PM
Jeffrey
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p.1 #8 · TOO many attaboys


Well said, Shane, and good suggestions. I'll work on a 'critique primer', but it may take a little time.

I put this thread here to get a wider audience, and to not come on too strong with a lot of people I know on the landscape forum. I'm trying to be gentle with a hot topic. It ain't easy!



Jun 29, 2008 at 05:16 PM
paulhodson
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p.1 #9 · TOO many attaboys


Quote from the "critique forum page


Effort: Has the photographer made full use of the facilities at his disposal? Or, are there things that the photographer could have improved with a little more work? Does it look like the photographer made an extra effort to capture the best possible image under the circumstances, or did he just go with what was in front of him?


Color: Was the photographer's choice to use or not use color sound? If the photographer used black and white, then is the subject of the photo something that is normally associated with color, like an apple? If the photographer used color, does the color add to or detract from the image?


Spatial positioning and composition: Is the subject in the center of the frame? Usually a centered subject looks boring, but it works in some cases. Did it work this time? Does anything look squeezed up against the side of the frame? Are there big open spaces around the edges that could be cropped out? Is there a clear subject that occupies the majority of the frame, or is the subject unclear or small and surrounded by irrelevant material?


Direction of attention: What do you see first in the photo? Is it the right thing? Do you have to hunt for the subject or does it stand out? Is your eye drawn to objects in the background, rather than the subject, or do you look to the edge of the frame, expecting to find something that isn't there?


Focus: Is anything in focus? Is it the subject or something else? Is the depth of field appropriate? Is the subject contained within the depth of field or are parts of the subject fuzzy? Are there distracting elements in the background that are in focus which would have been blurred out by a wider aperture?


Exposure: Is the photo properly exposed? Are there details both in the highlights and in the shadows, or are there large "blown-out" highlight areas or "blocked-up" shadow areas? If the exposure is biased towards light (high key) or dark (low key), did the photographer make a good choice?



Jun 29, 2008 at 05:44 PM
csm
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p.1 #10 · TOO many attaboys


Dang, did not even know there was a Critique Forum!

Those are good for part of it...wrap some text before and after that and a pretty good show!



Jun 29, 2008 at 05:52 PM
Phil Radlick
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p.1 #11 · TOO many attaboys


Jeffrey, thanks for this post. I am with you one hundred percent! The landscape forum is riddled with “best I have ever seen” comments from many of the “regulars”. I think there is a larger number of folks who lurk in that forum trying to learn how better to capture landscape images and they are getting misinformation from the above mentioned posters.
It would be great if we could lift the quality of the images posted, as well create a dialogue on the merits of the various aspects of a particularly good or almost good image.
Perhaps we could ask the images posters to declare in their posts whether the image they are posting are to be simply records of the place photographed or whether they are posting an image that is meant to be considered for top marks in photo artistry.
Some time ago, in reading a book called Art and Fear, I ran across one person’s view of the three questions to ask about a photographic image.
1. What was the photographer trying to do?
2. Was he/she successful?
3. Was it worth it?
Number three is the really tough one to discuss publicly, but 1 and 2 could easily be discussed on the forums for a particular image. I think we could really lift the quality of the forum and help many to learn how to take better images.
I for one will support whatever you decide to try to do and I believe there are a few others on that forum that would also.
Thanks for bringing this up. By the way your recent posts from Africa have been stellar!!
Best, Phil



Jun 29, 2008 at 06:17 PM
Ariel Bravy
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p.1 #12 · TOO many attaboys


What if there was a selection box when you go to post an image in the landscape section designating whether you are simply displaying your work or whether you want genuine c&c, or both?

Sounds like a great addition.



Jun 29, 2008 at 06:37 PM
Jeffrey
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p.1 #13 · TOO many attaboys


That would be nice, Ariel, as I'm sure a lot of people simply want to present and not get into a long discussion. I usually feel that way myself. However, it might complicate the forum flow a bit and create more arguments. You know how people are!


Jun 29, 2008 at 07:14 PM
Ariel Bravy
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p.1 #14 · TOO many attaboys


Create more arguments? Could you explain?


Jun 29, 2008 at 08:31 PM
Jeffrey
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p.1 #15 · TOO many attaboys


There is actually a critique forum here at FM. Still. people always critique in the other presentation forums. Not really an argument.....


Jun 29, 2008 at 09:19 PM
Ariel Bravy
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p.1 #16 · TOO many attaboys


Speaking of critiques, Jeffrey, I find that there's too many periods at the end of that last statement. It needs more balance.

If you used a standard ellipse and had just three periods, it'd balance better with the three trees in your avatar.




Jun 29, 2008 at 09:37 PM
Monito
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p.1 #17 · TOO many attaboys


I gave up on the Landscape forum more than a year ago for exactly the reasons Jeffrey made in the original post. Others remarked on it a number of times before, but nothing was done.

One aspect that is very damaging to the forum is that good work gets pushed off the first index page by all the attaboys awarded to average or even below average work. The same thing happens to serious questions by posters sincerely seeking to improve.

The cheerleaders are actually damaging the very people they praise, setting them back in their development because they praise mediocre work.

They are a tight self-supporting clique. They will boost their own threads position on the index page by bumping the threads under the guise of thanking their supporters. The cheerleaders will defend their practices vehemently. They are driving out the good photographers and good work and they need to be squelched.


Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 10:12 PM



Jun 29, 2008 at 09:49 PM
Icypeak
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p.1 #18 · TOO many attaboys


I agree this is a very difficult issue, Jeffrey. I've seen the same evolution in most photography forums, and it's difficult to battle human nature and try to keep a forum true to its original purpose. I don't post very often on FM any longer, but try to give comments and advice those that are new to the forum, on those images that have clearly identifiable faults that can be pointed out, or to those 'old timers' who've just produced one of their finest works, or something that represents a departure from their previous style and habits. I've been told to switch to NPN (I know you're often there) on which I've lurked, but I see the same forum dynamics taking place there as well.

I think that for some, the forums represent a valuable social network, even for sharing fairly average vacation and backyard shots, but I'm not certain that I can say that has no place to exist in the forum. We've all noticed many technical type people getting into photography since the digital revolution, many with little artistic talent or background (not that someone can't be very technically minded and creative/artistic as well). Some of them truly just don't have an 'eye' to know a strong image from a weak one, and some undeserved praise may be related to this 'tone deaf' visual state, but don't they deserve to voice their opinion as well? How can anyone decide who is 'qualified' to give critiques and who is not?

While seeing a lot of mundane images receiving lavish praise may confuse many newcomers and hold them back from developing their artistic eye for awhile, I think that most people who frequent a particular forum eventually get to know the personalities there, their qualifications, and their honesty or willingness to give a 'bad review' in order to help someone else along.

All in all, the people on the FM Landscape forum are extremely nice, well-behaved, and helpful. I think there is room for allowing folks who may find a different kind of value other than progressing up the pro or semi-pro fine art landscape ladder to participate, but maybe some additional features (rotating panel of judges or something) could be added to steer the more driven participants to more experienced and critical appraisal.

-David



Jun 29, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Rosemary R
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p.1 #19 · TOO many attaboys


I'm trying to imagine what the forum would look and feel like if it were reserved only as a showcase for the best images, alongside of hard critiques for photographers just beginning their climb up the learning curve. If you are a middle-of-the-road photographer in this pictured forum, you may as well not even participate. Critiques only tend to discourage. Attaboys only tend to discourage.








Jun 29, 2008 at 11:09 PM
csm
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p.1 #20 · TOO many attaboys


Critiques can be for all levels of photographer. I love to get them, it helps you grow.

It is also the foundation for nearly every college level photography class. I've only taken a few, but from those, know that critiques are invaluable and just a given. You take your assignment in each week, it goes up on the screen or light table, and everyone critiques it...that is what you do week in and week out...you actually get good at it because you know right away it is helping. And giving critiques helps the person doing it because it forces them to put into words what they are thinking, and to justify the position. Not as easy as it sounds.

I did not see anyone leave a class because of it, they stayed and learned. And these were all beginner classes, most of the class had zero experience with photography and did not know anything...to start with that is. As you move past the technical, you get into the creative and artistic (man, that is hard to grasp most of the time!) side of photography, the real challenge. But there are certain fundamentals that can help regardless of talent level.

Not every post has to be a critique. What if the work really is amazing? What if the photographer posting is one of the best in that form of photography? How does one critique that? Then maybe you just ask questions, or make ‘what-if’ comments, always something to talk about.

That being said, 99% of us could use some real feedback, and the most typical and useful form of that is the critique. One does not have to agree with the critique, you can go back and forth on it, that is fine too, IMO. For example, a lot of my stuff tends to “expose for the whites’ or my main subject only, and let the shadows fall into black or shadows without detail. This bugs a lot of people. That’s OK for them to say it. They are correct that the image is not exposed for the entire scene. But if I’m doing it on purpose, then my choice, thank them, explain that, and move on. But if I was not doing that on purpose, would it be useful to have it pointed out, yes!

Many of the critiques I've gotten over the years here really helped a lot, and still so much more to learn...but not if what you get is a thread full of "great job" etc. My place in the photographic journey is past technical, and learning compositions…so I’m always hoping for some great critiques. Also not a landscape photographer so some when I get around to it and post in that forum with some of you folks are REALLY good at it, and many are, I hope you will critique the dickens out of it.

Will also add that offering a critique is not "mean-spirited" or looking to belittle. That is why a sticky describing this process from start to finish may be helpful, just so everyone is on the same page.


Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 11:44 PM



Jun 29, 2008 at 11:41 PM
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