"You will refrain from photographing ..."

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maxim_me
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p.2 #1 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

I think we should all invite Priest and church elders to post here
MAYBE we can get some perspective from them...............

Jun 28, 2008 at 09:23 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #2 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

hassy501 wrote:
It's been a sore subject for many years.....the pros abide by the rules yet the guests do what they want.......

Which is discriminatory .. by & large the professionals are less obtrusive that many camera - toting guests yet we get the short end of the stick.

And at the end of it all it's really the B&G who suffer.

Jun 28, 2008 at 11:04 AM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.2 #3 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

paparazzinick wrote:
Mike Mahoney wrote:
Just attended yet another rehearsal where I was told that there will be NO photography whatsoever during the ceremony .. none with flash,. none without flash, none period. I can shoot the precessional, the register signing, and the recessional. The bride was aghast.

So I sit in the back waiting for the recessional while 250 relatives snap away and the video guy props his tripod (and himself) right in front of the front pew.

There should be some kind of public register where officiants make there views on photography known, so that people can avoid them if they want. Hopefully that may put them out of business.

Vent over.

yea we ran in to this a few times and I shoot anyway, especially if it is a church I know I wont be back to.

In-fact, today we had one where the minister said no way what so ever. I said to him tough. I was paid $6000 from the bride and groom and I WILL shoot during the ceremony. I will respect your religion and not interfere and I will not use flash but I WILL shoot. So if you cant respect that then throw me out and I walked away.

I shot respectfully as I always do and he came up to me after and said sorry I will rethink the no shooting in my church and let photographers shoot if they work like you.

Perfectly reasonable response.

Jun 28, 2008 at 12:57 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.2 #4 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

It seems like the pros that approach the clergy, judges, registrars, etc., professionally make some progress.

Might even undo some of the damage done by the clowns or at least help the next guy. Strikes me that clergy and other officiants aren't going to be receptive to the "Everybody else does it." argument.

Jun 28, 2008 at 05:54 PM

Patrick Elliott
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p.2 #5 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

maxim_me wrote:
I think we should all invite Priest and church elders to post here
MAYBE we can get some perspective from them...............

As a licensed minister, I have no problem with photography during the entire wedding. I realize how important the photos are to capture the moments as they happen. Sure, you can try to recreate some things after (rings, kiss, etc.), but they are not the same, because the natural emotion of the moment is lost.

Maybe I'm just biased because I'm a photographer as well. The way I look at it, if the photographer wanted to climb up on my shoulders to get a good shot, I'd say, "Go for it!" Well, I wouldn't go that far, but you know what I mean.

Where I live, I've never encountered a minister/officiant who places any kind of limit on photography - flash included. For the weddings that I have photographed, I always ask the minister, and the reply has basically been the same: "You can do whatever you want." Can't ask for better than that.

Patrick

Edited on Jun 28, 2008 at 09:53 PM

Jun 28, 2008 at 08:06 PM

dmacmillan
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p.2 #6 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Mike Mahoney wrote:

There should be some kind of public register where officiants make there views on photography known, so that people can avoid them if they want. Hopefully that may put them out of business.

Vent over.
I'm in a line of five generations of ordained Presbyterians. I find it offensive to refer to clergy as being "in the business".

I also find the attitude of the clergyman you dealt with as offensive. As said, it's a double standard to restrict the pro and allow guests to fire away.

My son and daughter-in-law, both pastors, are level headed and reasonable. They're willing to work with photographers and will not punish one pro for the boorish activity of another.

Shrug off the jerks, it'

Doug

Jun 29, 2008 at 01:16 AM

Steverock01
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p.2 #7 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Doug,

I don't wish to be offensive, but all churches are in fact businesses. The clergy are employees. Some clergy may have purely altruistic motives, but every profession (or calling if you prefer) has its primadonnas. It seems that policy on photography during ceremonies is very much the "call" of the officiating clergyman or woman.

Thanks for posting here anyway. It's good to hear another perspective.

Steve

Jun 29, 2008 at 01:40 AM

plove53
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p.2 #8 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Craig Gillette wrote:
It seems like the pros that approach the clergy, judges, registrars, etc., professionally make some progress.

Might even undo some of the damage done by the clowns or at least help the next guy. Strikes me that clergy and other officiants aren't going to be receptive to the "Everybody else does it." argument.

++++1
Most might bend the rules if asked in a civil manor.

I don't think these are "rules" of the church, but "rules" of the clergy.

-p

Jun 29, 2008 at 01:50 AM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.2 #9 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

dmacmillan wrote:
Mike Mahoney wrote:

There should be some kind of public register where officiants make there views on photography known, so that people can avoid them if they want. Hopefully that may put them out of business.

Vent over.
I'm in a line of five generations of ordained Presbyterians. I find it offensive to refer to clergy as being "in the business".
Doug

These people are practicing their profession and are in business. In the same sense that the grocer on the corner, the pizza guy up the block or the photographer in the next town are all in business.

The manner in which they practice their business within their respective franchise varies widely. One would expect a catholic or an to be consistent from church to church in the same manner as a big mac or a whopper is pretty much the same the world over.

Unfortunately this is not the case and we are occasionally subject to the whims of the franchisee. Reason and professionalism can resolve most disputes.

Jun 29, 2008 at 03:28 AM

hassy501
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p.2 #10 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

I'll have one Whopper and a glass of holy wine !

Jun 29, 2008 at 05:29 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #11 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Well he was pretty serious about it .. as I was taking some candids just before the ceremony he came up to me and said "Register signing & recessional only". Just those five words and and a look that said he meant business.

He did however ask for an obligatory register signing pic of him with the B&G:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The only shot I got during the whole ceremony, this at the very end:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

In future I'll discuss the possible photography restrictions with the couple during our initial consult and this will give them adequate time to ask the officiant about any restrictions and give them a chance to get another minister or priest.

To be fair to the minister it was one of the best behaved congregations I've seen .. his flock is well trained.

More pics on da blog:
http://weddingontherock.blogspot.com/

Edited on Jun 29, 2008 at 12:08 PM

Jun 29, 2008 at 12:07 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.2 #12 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Nice bride - quite the monumental church. No doubt a lot of blood, toil, lives and plate collections in those walls. Pity for the circumstance imposed by the fellow.

Jun 29, 2008 at 02:02 PM

bbudman
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p.2 #13 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

This just happened to me last weekend. During the rehersal last Friday I was told that no flash photography would be allowed nor would anyone be allowed to move during the ceremony. On Saturday I pulled the pastor to the side before the ceremony and got permission to place myself behind in the choir loft and positioned two assistants, one on the front row and a second in the rear of the church. During the ceremony the guest were popping of shots on their point and shoots with flash constantly! Prior to the service it was announced to the guest to please avoid using their camera and flash during the ceremony because it could cause problems for the professionals but they might as well had been talking to the walls because it didn't happen.

Jun 29, 2008 at 03:18 PM

hassy501
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p.2 #14 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Mike Mahoney wrote:
Well he was pretty serious about it .. as I was taking some candids just before the ceremony he came up to me and said "Register signing & recessional only". Just those five words and and a look that said he meant business.

He did however ask for an obligatory register signing pic of him with the B&G:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The only shot I got during the whole ceremony, this at the very end:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Jun 29, 2008 at 04:06 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #15 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

And for those who fail to see to business end of church weddings a wedding in a larger church here will require payment to the church of between $250 to $400, depending on your church contributions over the past 12 months.

Most churches on Saturdays in the summer have 2 weddings, often 3. So a typical Saturday's wedding income would be upwards of a thousand dollars. Shoot & burn money, but without the work.

Jun 29, 2008 at 04:34 PM

p150
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p.2 #16 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Mike Mahoney wrote:

Funny thing I just bought a 40D .. one of the main reasons was the silent shutter shooting which I felt may help during weddings.

Ha! Just yesterday I took full advantage of that feature! We respect the beliefs of the church or pastor, and when it's a case of them viewing the ceremony as sacred, we don't shoot. Yesterday's church just didn't want any distractions. The church wedding director even had us "click" our cameras for her so that she could hear how loud they were. They only wanted us to shoot during the processional, kiss, and recessional (the louder moments), but I shot pretty much the whole time with live view. I will say that I did my best to keep it to a minimum while still getting the most important shots.

Jun 29, 2008 at 06:19 PM

dmacmillan
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p.2 #17 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Mike Mahoney wrote:
And for those who fail to see to business end of church weddings a wedding in a larger church here will require payment to the church of between $250 to $400, depending on your church contributions over the past 12 months.

As an officer of the church and current chair of the finance committee, I can assure you that $200-$400 barely covers the cost, once you pay for heat and light. Also, the sexton usually works a full day. They have to set up for the wedding and then tear everything down and set up for church the next day. Then there's the cost of liability insurance. At my prior church, we ended up restricting weddings to church members because of several incidents of non-member wedding parties damaging the church, culminating in an $8000 plumbing bill when some dumb-a$$ dad flushed a diaper down the toilet.

To think churches are making a mint on wedding ceremonies is like folks thinking photographers charging $2,000 are robbing them blind.

For non believers it's hard to understand that the ministry is a calling, at least for some. I'm aware as you are of those who do make religion a business, but don't throw everyone in the same bucket.

My son reads both Greek and Hebrew. He is also fluent in Spanish and has been to Central America several times, living in homes with dirt floors. He doesn't preach, he just lives his faith. He has gone through college and graduate school on full scholarships and is preparing to begin his doctorate. How many of you wise acres slamming clergy and churches can read the Old Testament in its original language?

Doug

Edited on Jun 30, 2008 at 01:57 AM

Jun 30, 2008 at 01:56 AM

John Power
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p.2 #18 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Oh please. The clergy is a business just like the rest of us are businessmen and women. Hanging a "called by God" sign on you doesn't change the fact that rent/mortgage and salaries must be paid, structural and grounds maintenance is year round and there is always that ever present extra fund drive to expand the sanctuary, support the mission work or contribute to the retired preacher fund. If you don't run your church pursuant to sound business principles your preaching locale will soon be gone.

Your business is being a pastor so get over it would ya. It ain't a bad thing and you won't burn in hell for acknowledging it...So what if your son can read Hebrew. My daughter can dance pointe for hours. These facts don't make you or me any less "businessmen"

Jun 30, 2008 at 02:08 AM

Steverock01
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p.2 #19 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

And here's another example of churches being run as businesses...even the Presbyterians. Nothing wrong with that by the way, but it should still be acknowledged. From today's local rag...

http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3777082

***edit****added below.

Sorry, just to add it's not the ones who treat it as business that I'm having a problem with. They give the customers what they want as I try to do at the same time. It's more likely those who see photographers as a crass intrusion who will stop me from doing my job.

Edited on Jun 30, 2008 at 03:01 AM

Jun 30, 2008 at 02:19 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #20 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

dmacmillan wrote:
How many of you wise acres slamming clergy and churches can read the Old Testament in its original language?
Doug

I chaired one of the larger (seven figure) finance committees in our archdiocese for several years yet never thought to bring that fact up to support my views in any thread here yet. So I hope you would show the same restraint when rolling the credentials out.

Doug nobody is "slamming" clergy here .. in fact most of us respect and want to work with clergy.

But any church has business aspects .. they are not primarily a business, but do engage in activities that generate income.

Edited on Jun 30, 2008 at 04:15 AM

Jun 30, 2008 at 03:08 AM

hassy501
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p.2 #21 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

John Power wrote:
Oh please. The clergy is a business just like the rest of us are businessmen and women. Hanging a "called by God" sign on you doesn't change the fact that rent/mortgage and salaries must be paid, structural and grounds maintenance is year round and there is always that ever present extra fund drive to expand the sanctuary, support the mission work or contribute to the retired preacher fund. If you don't run your church pursuant to sound business principles your preaching locale will soon be gone.

Your business is being a pastor so get over it would ya. It ain't a bad thing and you won't burn in hell for acknowledging it...So what if your son can read Hebrew. My daughter can dance pointe for hours. These facts don't make you or me any less "businessmen"

Very narrow minded view of the workings of a church or faith based institution.

Jun 30, 2008 at 04:23 AM

rennie12
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p.2 #22 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

from the other side of the aisle ( ! ). I am an experienced ex-pro with over 40 years of shooting since my first Leica.

I recently attended a relative's wedding, and I was absolutely astounded by the attitude of the entire proceeding - it was ALL apparently ONLY a photo-op - there was no sense of any religious or, indeed, social meaning.

As far as I am concerned this is absurd. A wedding should be a solemn pact of utmost importance to the participants; if it is not religious it is still a cultural custom of great importance to the participants, to their families, and to society as a whole.

What - weddings had no MEANING until modern wedding photography became a big business ?

I feel the authority - priest, rabbi, preacher, or just social official, has every reason to object to the photographer treating the occasion ONLY AS HIS CHANCE TO EARN BIG BUCKS...often shooting in an obtrusive manner, with a loud clatter, often flash, and often (sadly but lets face it) behaving as if HIS PHOTOGRAPHS are what the whole thing is about.

I realize the wedding is important to the photographer. But his chance to earn the big bucks has nothing whatever to do with the ceremony and if all the bride and groom have to "remember this important day" is - photographs ? ? - How grotesque.

Now that everybody is frothing at the mouth I would make a respectful suggestion. Try a Sony S100fs - just shoot a sample set of images with it. ISO 1600 will make an excellent 13x19 and most lighting will work quite well without flash. You might be able to persuade the church to allow shooting with this during the actual ceremony - absolute silence, no flash, and a very long (400 mm 35mE) very well stabilized reach. The rest of the ceremony could be shot with your usual equipment.

bill wilson

Jun 30, 2008 at 04:41 AM

Steverock01
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p.2 #23 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

With all due respect Bill, the problem here is not whether the church has the right to set rules. It's about individual employees of the church deciding that they have absolute authority to set their own rules at their whim. Why is it that one employee will allow photography and another over-zealous one from the same church (and I mean the same building not the whole faith) simply decides that no photography shall be allowed?

You have also neatly side-stepped the issue of guests being allowed to do as they like whilst the pro gets singled out. Let's see how you go throwing out the B&G's invited guests.

Jun 30, 2008 at 05:42 AM

p150
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p.2 #24 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Steverock01 wrote:

You have also neatly side-stepped the issue of guests being allowed to do as they like whilst the pro gets singled out. Let's see how you go throwing out the B&G's invited guests.

I think that's exactly the deal though. Of course the guests will not be thrown out, they are supposed to be there as witnesses and as part of the celebration. If you look at it from outside the situation, you'll see that the pro photographer is just a vendor, a businessperson. As such, he/she can be held to a different standard.

Think about it like this:

You have a studio and you have a paying client coming in for a shoot of her kids. One of the kids tracks in mud all over the floor. What is your response? You will likely ignore it, then clean it up when they leave.

But, what if you hire a plumber to come to your studio and fix the sink and HE tracks in mud everywhere? What is your response? I know that I would most likely tell him where my mop is and let him take care of the mess he made.

To me, the issue isn't even so much about the customer paying you, it's that the event (photo shoot in this case) was about them. THEY were the honored guests in the scenario. I make this distinction because I don't want people to think that I am talking about the church making money and not wanting to tick off their "customers". Maybe a better example would be dinner guests at your house. It's about them, so you let certain things slide.

Jun 30, 2008 at 06:15 AM

hassy501
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p.2 #25 · "You will refrain from photographing ..."

Steverock01 wrote:
With all due respect Bill, the problem here is not whether the church has the right to set rules. It's about individual employees of the church deciding that they have absolute authority to set their own rules at their whim. Why is it that one employee will allow photography and another over-zealous one from the same church (and I mean the same building not the whole faith) simply decides that no photography shall be allowed?

You have also neatly side-stepped the issue of guests being allowed to do as they like whilst the pro gets singled out. Let's see how you go throwing out the B&G's invited guests.

Unfortunately there is really nothing that can or will be done concerning guests.....pros are fair game as we are getting paid and NOT part of the guest or families. Institutions have a built in history of regulating the pros, and alot of that comes from NON PROS working in those institutions without any regard for professionalism.
That is what really causes those institutions to look at ALL photographers with the same eye.

Jun 30, 2008 at 06:28 AM


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