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liamh
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p.2 #1 · High Key Thread

Yes Britt, your shot is high-key, as is Nathan's. Both are very nice too.

May 12, 2008 at 11:22 AM

BrittMcT
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p.2 #2 · High Key Thread

thank liam

May 12, 2008 at 01:48 PM

Steady Hand
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p.2 #3 · High Key Thread

There is something about the examples used here that is bothering me a bit.

Seems this is a "White skin with blond hair" oriented "style."

I was surprised the red headed woman did not qualify as a "high Key."

When I look at the last two images (girl, boy) I am struck by how the hair on the boy seems very light. I mean, doesn't he really have brown hair Britt? And the eyes, would not the eyes (with eyelashes too) seem the same "bleached out" look too?

Or is this just the technique of using photoshop to keep the eyes dark (with dark eyelashes) and then to desaturate and lighten everything else but the eyes?

In other words, I am getting a sense that Photoshop techniques are changing the look of "high key" into something like this: "Step one, duplicate layers, desaturate the image, in photoshop lighten it until almost white, then use the history brush to put the eyes and eyelashes back into the picture."

I also have the sense that "high key" seems to be limited to people with blond hair (fake or real or wannabe blond) and extremely white skin (real or post-processed to look like it). (Please show me examples that prove otherwise.)

Something about this just "sticks in my craw" (Southern saying or idiom meaning roughly: "It doesn't go down well" or doesn't fit) that only people who have blond hair and very white skin "qualify."

And then, to take a person with brown hair and then make them appear blond. Hmmmm.

In the end, I do think this is a matter of opinion and like anything else, I don't expect two people to fully agree on this.

But I write this because I find these examples and the "yes it is, no it isn't" amusing, and sometimes...I just don't agree.

Am I the only person here on the forum that feels this way?

Lest anyone mistake my intention on writing this, I am amused and in a good sense of humor. I write it with a friendly tone of voice too.

Edited on May 12, 2008 at 02:49 PM

May 12, 2008 at 02:10 PM

Nathan67
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p.2 #4 · High Key Thread

Steady Hand wrote:
There is something about the examples used here that is bothering me a bit.

In the end, I do think this is a matter of opinion and like anything else, I don't expect two people to fully agree on this.

But I write this because I find these examples and the "yes it is, no it isn't" amusing, puzzling (the logic), and sometimes...I just don't agree.

Am I the only person here on the forum that feels this way?

Lest anyone mistake my intention on writing this, I am amused and in a good sense of humor. I write it with a friendly tone of voice too.

Steady Hand,

I can assure you that no "painting in the eyes" has happened here, or a duplicate layer.. I upload now a file straight from aperture and the aperture settings so that you can see.. this shot was done 99% in the camera.... just a slight crop, and border added in photoshop.

2008 © Nathan67

May 12, 2008 at 02:50 PM

liamh
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p.2 #5 · High Key Thread

Hi Steady (and everyone!),

High key is for everyone, not just Aryans

Part of the problem replicating the effect is the limited dynamic range (especially in the highlights) of digital capture.

Traditionally, the high key effect was created in part by lighting and art-direction but also by the way the film was developed and printed. Film was developed in diluted developer thus creating a 'thin' negative with blacks that were more gray, but leaving more tonality in the highlights. Printing on low-contrast paper further emphasised the effect as did 'shading' and vignetting (white of course).

Replicating these darkroom processes in photoshop is not impossible, but is pretty tough and if you factor in the point I made earlier about the lack of dynamic range in the highlights with digital capture, you've got a double wammy for the purist in regard to high key.

There's no rule that says you have to follow any given procedure in order to create a high key image, those capture and processing techniques are simply all that was available at the time. When all said and done a high-key image is simply an image where the dominant tonality is light. How you get there is up to you.

I must say that Tony has made some excellent points about high key in this thread and I wholeheartedly agree with him in regard to "Hot White" (I'd never heard that term before either!) but I don't think you have to be white and blonde to feature in a high key shot.

From "The Photographer's Handbook" (1977):

"The terms high or low key refer to the dominant prevailing tones - light or dark - used in a picture. A high key photograph consists mostly of white with light tones and some middle tones..."

Edited on May 12, 2008 at 02:53 PM

May 12, 2008 at 02:52 PM

Steady Hand
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p.2 #6 · High Key Thread

Nathan and Liam,

Thanks for contributing to this thread as you have.

Don't mistake my tone or attitude.

I am just having a good day and an occasional laugh.

Nathan, good for you that the image was captured by camera work. Nice portrait too.

And...a good discussion like this one always needs an "in the know" (knowledgeable) questioner (or a "shill") to keep the dialog/fun going.

Liam, what's a darkroom?

May 12, 2008 at 03:04 PM

cgardner
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p.2 #7 · High Key Thread

This thread has taken an interesting turn. Although he didn't originate the thread Tony has decided to anoint himself as arbiter of what qualifies as "high-key" based on his personal interpretation, which as with all threads which have ever discussed the subject turns it into the definition of a silly set of rules about what qualifies as "high-key" which have little practical application.

A more practical approach is to first think about what your goal for the photograph is. What do you want the viewer to be attracted to most strongly? Where do you want their eye to go next? Where do you want the "center of gravity" of the image, the spot where the eye comes to rest to be? What emotional reaction do you wish to evoke in the mind of the viewer?

Once you have a clear goal in mind for what you want a photo to say the important thing is to understand what strategies will deliver that intended message clearly. The most compelling strategy for using a white background is to make anything darker easy to find because it will contrast. The more it contrasts the more attention it will get. Simple cause and effect.

When an image with a normal tonal range from black-to-white is ghosted overall by flat lighting and overexposure in the camera or by post-processing the attractive effect is actually lessened. For example if you were to take a B&W portrait and ghost it, making the pupils of the eyes light gray instead of black, the compelling contrast of the dark pupils on the white background will be decreased and so will be effectiveness of the eye contract they create. But if you where to take a photo with a normal tonal range, leave the eyes dark, but ghost everything else in varying amounts the eye contact with the image would be strong and magnetic.

Which is the purer form of "high-key"? Who cares? Go with whatever strategy is most effective at guiding the viewer of your photo to what you want them to see by controlling the relative contrast of things in the photo with tone, color, and relative sharpness and just call it EFFECTIVE.

Chuck

May 12, 2008 at 03:05 PM

Nathan67
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p.2 #8 · High Key Thread

Steady Hand wrote:
Nathan and Liam,

Thanks for contributing to this thread as you have.

Don't mistake my tone or attitude.

I am just having a good day and an occasional laugh.

Nathan, good for you that the image was captured by camera work. Nice portrait too.

And...a good discussion like this one always needs an "in the know" (knowledgeable) questioner (or a "shill") to keep the dialog/fun going.

Liam, what's a darkroom?

No offense taken Steady Hand

I like a lively discussion too, and really nice to see such a discussion here without it turning into a "I am right you are wrong" kinda thing...

I particurlay liked mr Gardner's last comment... as I used to say in my old home of the UK, "there is more than one way to skin a cat"

mmm darkroom.... I have one in my studio... been a while though.. mmm I can almost smell those lovely chemicals... mmm

May 12, 2008 at 03:11 PM

BrittMcT
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p.2 #9 · High Key Thread

My sons hair is actually a dirty blond but regardless I did bring up the blacks to give them more of a frosty look.

May 12, 2008 at 03:30 PM

liamh
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p.2 #10 · High Key Thread

BrittMcT wrote:
My sons hair is actually a dirty blond but regardless I did bring up the blacks to give them more of a frosty look.
And that's exactly what would have happened using the traditional technique.

BTW, a darkroom is where I use to go to get away from the wife, now it's the internet...

Oh, I'm in trouble now

May 12, 2008 at 03:36 PM

Steady Hand
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p.2 #11 · High Key Thread

To all:

I suspect this thread will get a couple thousand views and very few images posted.

I suspect that is because everyone that thinks they have been shooting "high key" (and you know who you are...

) will be afraid to post an image as it won't "qualify."

May 12, 2008 at 07:09 PM

tonyfield
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p.2 #12 · High Key Thread

Thanks to Nathan67 and BrittMcT for posting excellent examples of high key images. These clearly illustrate the tonality associated with High Key and shows that careful choice of subject makes the tone range creation much easier.

Nathan67 also clearly illustrates that high key is largely done in-camera and minimal postprocessing is needed.

Liamh points out the film processing strategy that was used in ancient history to make the high key image printing easier. The general reason for using a diluted developer was to ensure the developer would exhaust itself when processing highlights and continue active development in shadows - thus reducing the contrast of the image.

It is instructive to visually compare these shots with those provided by Rob_S and tutumon.

Edited by tonyfield on May 12, 2008 at 01:02 PM GMT

Edited on May 12, 2008 at 08:02 PM

May 12, 2008 at 07:53 PM

tonyfield
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p.2 #13 · High Key Thread

liamh wrote:
I must say that Tony has made some excellent points about high key in this thread and I wholeheartedly agree with him in regard to "Hot White" (I'd never heard that term before either!)

The term "hot white" came about from the New York fashion world in the 1960s and 1970s when shooting fashion images on a white background became the rage. I first heard of this in mid 1970s when assisting a fashion photographer from NY while he was shooting some western fashion images at the Calgary Stampede.

but I don't think you have to be white and blonde to feature in a high key shot.

Certainly not - however shooting a black skinned person with black hair and generating a pleasing high key is IMO very difficult. I tried to do this and had very limited limited success. I have seen a small number of good dark skinned high key images in ancient photography annuals - but very few compared to light skin, light hair people.

May 12, 2008 at 08:02 PM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #14 · High Key Thread

BrittMcT wrote:
This is high key but some I am sure will disagree.

Technically this image is lacking total black, which is still a requirement to be high key.

I think a contrast adjustment bringing the blacks in line would make it a text book example of high key.

May 12, 2008 at 08:07 PM

tonyfield
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p.2 #15 · High Key Thread

It would be nice to see some examples of good high key colour images. Unfortunately I don't have any.

May 12, 2008 at 08:15 PM

Bruce Sawle
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p.2 #16 · High Key Thread

Here is one of my favorites. Not entirely High Key but close enough.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Edited on May 12, 2008 at 08:21 PM

May 12, 2008 at 08:20 PM

Geo31
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p.2 #17 · High Key Thread

tonyfield wrote:
There is only one high key image. The high key image of the lady is a virtually perfectly exposed HP4 image printed for a high key rendition..

Horsepucky.

There is no detail in the skin tones on the entire left side. High-key happens in exposing the image, not in the printing. Think not? Shoot transparencies.

May 13, 2008 at 12:42 AM

Ubuhle
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p.2 #18 · High Key Thread

I know this photo doesn't count as high key because of the dirty shirt:

This is an interesting thread and I am trying to sort my way through it. At times I just don't know what really is high key. This thread is helpful in clearing up this question, but I doubt that I will ever achieve a true high picture because the definition ultimately seems to depend on the viewer's point of view.

There is some lovely work here and excellent discussion. I am not skillful or confident enough to chime in, especially when compared to the talent on this forum. However, I keep trying and learning and growing. What more can we do?

PS - I post this picture as a poor attempt at humor. I am not implying in anyway that this is a high key picture.

BLR

Edited by Ubuhle on May 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM GMT

Edited on May 13, 2008 at 06:56 PM

May 13, 2008 at 01:20 AM

Numfar
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p.2 #19 · High Key Thread

With no formal training in photography beyond reading boards, I'm not so good with knowing the rules and definitions, but here's one of mine that I think fits the definition...

Edited on May 13, 2008 at 02:04 AM

May 13, 2008 at 02:03 AM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #20 · High Key Thread

Typically high-key still has detail in the skin, keeps the majority of the tonal range on the white side, but still has the complete range of tones from white to black.

It's a fairly easy definition, but many are getting confused by poor examples they've seen by others.

Edited on May 13, 2008 at 03:45 AM

May 13, 2008 at 03:43 AM

mdude85
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p.2 #21 · High Key Thread

properly exposed subject in front of white background does not equal high key

May 13, 2008 at 03:50 AM

tonyfield
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p.2 #22 · High Key Thread

Geo31 wrote:
tonyfield wrote:
There is only one high key image. The high key image of the lady is a virtually perfectly exposed HP4 image printed for a high key rendition..

Horsepucky.

There is no detail in the skin tones on the entire left side. High-key happens in exposing the image, not in the printing. Think not? Shoot transparencies.

Hummmm.... possibly your monitor is not adjusted properly. The image contains rgb values of 249 to 253 on the image left side and 240 to 250 on image right.. My monitor shows smooth tonality in these areas. Additionally, remember that this is shot on HP4 developed for lower than normal contrast which has it's own characteristics that bear no similarity to shooting transparencies. Additionally, the lady is 18 years old with very nice smooth skin.

May 13, 2008 at 06:49 PM

Geo31
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p.2 #23 · High Key Thread

tonyfield wrote:Hummmm.... possibly your monitor is not adjusted properly.

Hmmm.... you know you could be right there. For sure I see NO detail on the left side. If you see it on your monitor, it certainly could be my monitor. Further, if that detail is there, then absolutely it's high-key.

Someone else said that a properly exposed subject against a white background is not high-key. That can be correct. High-key is a properly exposed light subject against a light background. Very light. But highlights don't get blown. That is what make true high-key work so spectacular.

What makes high-key high-key is the subject and background, not manipulating the exposure to make it appear light. That is why using the histogram doesn't really mean anything - it's affected by exposure. People have been taking high-key images long before there was digital photography. As I said before, if you really want a challenge, and want to get really good at high-key, shoot transparencies. Transparencies are VERY unforgiving. There is NO post production to save you.

May 15, 2008 at 12:54 AM

Feifei
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p.2 #24 · High Key Thread

mark

May 15, 2008 at 03:47 AM

Brian Lingle
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p.2 #25 · High Key Thread

Geo31 said, "...That is what make true high-key work so spectacular."

My impression is that the concept of "high key" has been given an aura of respect and high value in the photography world and that a lot of photographers that don't fully understand the techincal meaning of the term want to do this cool thing called high key, too. CGardner's assertion that people are getting caught up in the concept and missing the point, is a reasonable reaction.

TonyField is providing a dispassionate definition of the terms, well grounded in their use in the industry, and providing examples. The definition is clear. There is no reason to be troubled by the probability that you can't make a high key portrait of a black cat.

There is no reason to be troubled over the fact that a portrait with a hot white background and medium key subject is not a high key photo, unless you're overly attached to the connotation conveyed by the term, high key.

Edited on May 15, 2008 at 04:29 AM

May 15, 2008 at 04:26 AM


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