dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Moderated by: guardian

Visit the FM Store · Image Upload · Buy & Sell
FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums | Canon-mount SLRs | Join Image Upload

2 end

RalphJ
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #1 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

In dpreview comparisons of the two cameras' RAW files, the 5D acquitted itself quite well from an IQ standpoint, considering that it costs only 40% as much as the D3 costs. Yes, I know there's a lot more to a camera than IQ (e.g., speed, features, build quality, ergos, weatherproofing), and at high ISOs the D3 clearly pulls away from the 5D.

But we ARE talking about a $3000 price difference, and one of the complaints of the digital age is that "You always have to spend a lot more to get optimum IQ." Here's the page:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/page29.asp

"Taking the in-camera processing out of the imaging pipeline reveals that, unsurprisingly, [the 5D and the D3] produce results that are very, very similar.

"It's obvious from a close examination of the RAW output that the 5D has a weaker anti alias filter so produces marginally finer resolution and better 'per pixel' sharpness than the D3 at lower ISO settings, but to be honest once you've added a bit more sharpening to the D3 files (which they take very well) the difference is minimal, and you're certainly going to need to look very closely indeed - at a pixel level - to see it."

_____________________

Not bad for a camera (5D) that debuted exactly two years before the D3! (8/22/05 vs. 8/23/07)
_____________________

Dpreview also has, on the next page, visual comparisons of noise levels with 1DsIII, 5D, Nikon D3, and Nikon D300 (no 1DIII), although it's hard to judge too much from the small samples shown and the larger file size of the 1DsIII complicates visual analysis even further.

Here's the page:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/page30.asp

Frankly, they're all very good. DSLR tech is definitely reaching adulthood.

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 10:20 AM

Apr 19, 2008 at 09:39 AM

Pixel Perfect
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #2 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Yes 5D is a brilliant camera for it's time and still holds it head very high IQ wise. Given the poor baseline Nikon were coming from as far as noise, the D3 is a huge achievement for them (of course with Sony's help). I think we won't see any huge leaps from Canon with a 5D replacement, but even it met the D3's high ISO noise performance and had say 16MP that would be a tremendous result in itself and given how good the 1D III is, it's probably not going to be too hard for Canon to achieve.

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 10:30 AM

Apr 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM

RalphJ
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #3 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Don't know if it's due to the lens used or the weaker AA filter (or both), but in the three bottom comparison shots on that linked page (especially the paper clips), the 5D RAW files look awfully good:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/page29.asp

Apr 19, 2008 at 10:54 AM

Pixel Perfect
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #4 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

I used to think Phil Askey was a straight up reviewer, but he does seem to be showing bias these days. Things he took great delight to point out in the 5D review like vignetting are nonchalantly dismissed on the D3. If a 2.5 yo Nikon produced the results of a brand new Canon he would have made a huge song and dance.

Not sour grapes, as I have stated many times I think the D3 is a remarkable camera and blows the 5D away in most areas, except IQ and would love to own one, but a review should be impartial and there's clear bias in his reviews these days. That's not Nikon's fault and doesn't detract from their current lineup, but Phil's losing fans and clearly hasn't forgiven Canon over their treatment of him in the past.

I agree the 5D is actually doing slightly better looking at the RAW's but would be barely discernible in a normal print.

Apr 19, 2008 at 11:46 AM

Mike Mahoney
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #5 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

"Taking the in-camera processing out of the imaging pipeline reveals that, unsurprisingly, these two cameras produce results that are very, very similar".

Edited by Mike Mahoney on Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM GMT

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM

Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM

dhphoto
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #6 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

I think Phil got cross when Canon refused to give him samples, even though he's never broken an embargo.

I noticed that the 5D stood up fabulously against the D3 from an image quality point of view, and if you are studio based and don't need the bells and whistles why would you change a whole system for the D3? The 5D really was ahead of it's time.

Never been a better time to pick up a 5D bargain

David

Apr 19, 2008 at 11:56 AM

milanissimo
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #7 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Pixel Perfect wrote:
I used to think Phil Askey was a straight up reviewer, but he does seem to be showing bias these days. Things he took great delight to point out in the 5D review like vignetting are nonchalantly dismissed on the D3. If a 2.5 yo Nikon produced the results of a brand new Canon he would have made a huge song and dance.

Not sour grapes, as I have stated many times I think the D3 is a remarkable camera and blows the 5D away in most areas, except IQ and would love to own one, but a review should be impartial and there's clear bias in his reviews these days. That's not Nikon's fault and doesn't detract from their current lineup, but Phil's losing fans and clearly hasn't forgiven Canon over their treatment of him in the past.

I agree the 5D is actually doing slightly better looking at the RAW's but would be barely discernible in a normal print.

He's been biased since D2X came out, some 3 years ago I think.

Apr 19, 2008 at 11:57 AM

RalphJ
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #8 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Every time Askey says anything good about Nikon, Canon users complain.

Every time Askey says anything good about Canon, Nikon users complain.

And let's be honest: Askey's been very friendly to most of the Canon SLRs he's tested. Here he is on the 40D, for example - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos40d/page29.asp - and here he is on the 5D: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5d/page32.asp

In this case, Askey said that the D3 is a remarkable camera. That's not inaccurate, is it? From all accounts I've heard, the D3 is sparking more Canon-to-Nikon switches than any Nikon in the past 20 or 30 years, so it can't be crap.

Askey also said that at least at lower ISOs, the IQ of the $2000 Canon 5D is just as good as the IQ of the $5000 Nikon D3.

That's hardly what one can call anti-Canon bias. A positive review of a product that is almost universally considered to be at or near the top of its class does not constitute "bias."

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Apr 19, 2008 at 12:19 PM

Pixel Perfect
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #9 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

It's the little comments he makes that are telling

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=27615205
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=27622329

Apr 19, 2008 at 02:00 PM

Jman13
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #10 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Yeah, I have noticed a bit of bias. First of all, in the Nikon reviews, any time the competing camera is slightly better, he inserts an excuse. "It's obvious from a close examination of the RAW output that the 5D has a weaker anti alias filter so produces marginally finer resolution and better 'per pixel' sharpness than the D3 at lower ISO settings, but to be honest once you've added a bit more sharpening to the D3 files (which they take very well) the difference is minimal, and you're certainly going to need to look very closely indeed - at a pixel level - to see it."

Why the excuse? Just say that the D3 isn't quite as sharp as the 5D. People can see the pictures, we know it's not a HUGE difference.

The D3's high ISO noise control is outstanding, but why not compare it against Canon's currently best high ISO machine, the 1D3? Especially since it's the only other DSLR that has ISO 6400. Looking at how close the 5D is, I can tell you why...because the 1D3 is likely nearly identical to the D3 in high ISO...it just doesn't have the 12800 and 25600 settings. While not necessary, I also would be interested in the left over noise from a downsampled 1DsIII shot to 12 MP. It would be very interesting to see if the 1DsIII downsampled shot had less noise than the D3 shot at the same resolution, as I suspect it would.

One thing is very clear, though....the D3 is one heck of an amazing camera. It is also clear that the top offerings for both Canon and Nikon are exceptional imaging devices.

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 02:08 PM

Apr 19, 2008 at 02:07 PM

Don Clary
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #11 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Why shouldn't the 5D image IQ be similar to D3? They are both full frame sensors and both fall into the 12-13MP range. We know that pixel size and imager area is important. If that were not so, why do we have medium format digital backs?

Apr 19, 2008 at 07:08 PM

bobbytan
Online
Image Upload: On

p.1 #12 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Huh? I would think that IQ is more important than feature set. To me, the 5D images have better color balance. The images are cleaner and brighter than either the D3 or D300.

Pixel Perfect wrote:

Not sour grapes, as I have stated many times I think the D3 is a remarkable camera and blows the 5D away in most areas, except IQ and would love to own one, but a review should be impartial and there's clear bias in his reviews these days. That's not Nikon's fault and doesn't detract from their current lineup, but Phil's losing fans and clearly hasn't forgiven Canon over their treatment of him in the past.

I agree the 5D is actually doing slightly better looking at the RAW's but would be barely discernible in a normal print.

Apr 19, 2008 at 07:21 PM

BenV
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #13 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

The 5D is a spectacular camera, except when things get rough. When you need speed, build quality, FPS, weather sealing, extremely fast AF, and various other features, the 5D doesn't come close. The D3 is a one-stop do it all shop, the 5D can do it all, just alot more cautiously and requires more planning.

Apr 19, 2008 at 07:31 PM

jamesf99
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #14 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

I think everyone that isn't blindly biased knows the D3 is a good camera. It's what I wish the 1D Mark III had been, but that's another story.

As for Phil Askey, he lost all credibility long ago in my eyes. The thing I'm not sure of though is if he even does the reviews anymore. There's a crew of people there and they may be doing the reviews now, but either way the reviews are pathetic (like a 1980's issue of Pravda). Only real Nikon fans don't see the problem. On a positive note, at least in the D3 review he (mystery person) didn't say something to the effect of "I had trouble finding anything wrong with this camera" like "he" did with the D300. Hmmmm, seems like if you open your eyes there are failings with the D300, but again, that's another story...

What galls me is that in each case, is that the images they posted were bested by the Canon samples up to ISO 800. The 5d outperforms the D3, and the 40d out performed the D300. the reviewer also decided not to compare the RAW files. Isn't that clever? If you ignore something, it must not exist. Features are important and Nikon has done a superb job of adding features. They have improved their (i.e. Sony) sensors regarding noise, but they are not the undisputed top of the heap when it comes to IQ from what I've seen.

P.S. - The 1D3 will be reviewed and posted in the next week according to some guy named Simon. I expect it to get savaged, rightly or wrongly, but either way it should be interesting and Canon will get yet another well deserved poke in the eye.

Apr 19, 2008 at 08:54 PM

danmitchell
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #15 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Completely unsurprising. 12 MP FF sensors are generally going to produce fairly similar RAW files.

Of course - for about the umpteenth time - the 5D and D3 are not really directly competitive cameras. They have very different purposes and are equipped and priced quite differently. Except for the FF sensor, the D3 competes more closely with the 1DMKIII. In that comparison, both cameras have their strong points.

The 5D is a fine camera for a photographer who wants the imaging qualities of the FF 12 MP sensor but does not need the other features found in cameras like the Nikon D3 or the Canon 1DMkIII. For such photographers, the 5D is currently the only game in town.

But a pretty good game...

Dan

Edited on Apr 19, 2008 at 08:59 PM

Apr 19, 2008 at 08:59 PM

BenV
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #16 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

I still wish people would stop with the my camera is better than your camera debate. Lets just all take pictures :-)

Apr 19, 2008 at 09:18 PM

RalphJ
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #17 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

BenV wrote:
I still wish people would stop with the "my camera is better than your camera" debate. Lets just all take pictures :-)

Amen. This forum is filled daily with laments about "Nikon is really moving forward; Canon had better get its act together or I'm switching to the dark side," but when a reviewer says that a Nikon has merit? Hoo boy, better step aside from all the brickbats that'll be thrown at the reviewer.

Apr 19, 2008 at 09:40 PM

Jammy Straub
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #18 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

danmitchell wrote:
Completely unsurprising. 12 MP FF sensors are generally going to produce fairly similar RAW files.
Dan

That pretty much sums it up. Never understood why everyone wants to make such a big deal out of it.

bobbytan wrote:
Huh? I would think that IQ is more important than feature set. To me, the 5D images have better color balance. The images are cleaner and brighter than either the D3 or D300.

I'd take a faster handling camera with a better feature set in my line of work over one that offers better IQ in a lesser package almost any day. I'm sure it's different for your line of work if you can work slower and more methodically. It used to be the same way with medium format and 35mm.

Apr 20, 2008 at 03:58 AM

Dawei Ye
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #19 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

BenV wrote:
I still wish people would stop with the my camera is better than your camera debate. Lets just all take pictures :-)

But the whole point of the camera debate is so we are able to make a decision as to what tool to use to take the picture in the first place...

Jammy Straub wrote:

bobbytan wrote:
Huh? I would think that IQ is more important than feature set. To me, the 5D images have better color balance. The images are cleaner and brighter than either the D3 or D300.

I'd take a faster handling camera with a better feature set in my line of work over one that offers better IQ in a lesser package almost any day. I'm sure it's different for your line of work if you can work slower and more methodically. It used to be the same way with medium format and 35mm.

I agree it depends on the user, the main reason I'm not getting a 5D is because of the lack of dual card redundancy

Edited on Apr 20, 2008 at 05:09 AM

Apr 20, 2008 at 05:07 AM

garyvot
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #20 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

If the D3 is "as good as" the 5D, it is very good indeed. As it happens, it beats the 5D on noise, but loses on per-pixel sharpness. I'll call that a tie, IQ wise, since different people will value these attributes differently. (Of course, the D3 is much faster in every way than the 5D, while the 5D is much lighter and more compact.)

That said, the real comparison in this review should have been with the 1D Mark III. In every way except sensor size (target audience, price, build quality, resolution, shooting performance, high-ISO noise, etc.), this camera is the D3 competitor. The D3 has a touch more reslution and greater wide angle capability; the 1D3 has a slightly faster frame rate (not enough to worry about) and more "reach" with longer lenses. There are pros and cons to each package, depending on needs.

I'm disappointed the DP Review failed to do this, and still waiting for a thorough head-to-head review of these two models that focuses on image quality, noise, and AF performance.

Edited on Apr 20, 2008 at 04:52 PM

Apr 20, 2008 at 04:51 PM

gbee
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #21 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Your naivety is showing ... Nikon pay for ads on Amazon.

Canon knew what they were doing when refusing Phil a review camera. As you’ve stated, bias …. Canon knew in advance they were not getting a fair review from Phil, who has shown his own smallmindedness.

Pixel Perfect wrote: That's not Nikon's fault and doesn't detract from their current lineup, but Phil's losing fans and clearly hasn't forgiven Canon over their treatment of him in the past.

Apr 20, 2008 at 05:00 PM

mark1958
Online
Image Upload: On

p.1 #22 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

Phil's review have always emphasized straight out of the camera jpg images and while I felt that in the early days he was probably one of the most extensive reviewers on the internet there is a lot of competition now. His reviews were more for the general point and shoot camera enthusiast. I found his reviews helpful when my friend and relatives would ask me about what kind of Point and Shoot camera should I buy. None of these folks care about RAW processing. I know a colleague who has a nikon DSLR but never touches RAW files. It is clear that the in camera jpg images are not what most of us who participate on this web site care about.

Apr 20, 2008 at 05:10 PM

Pixel Perfect
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #23 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

gbee wrote:
Your naivety is showing ... Nikon pay for ads on Amazon.

Canon knew what they were doing when refusing Phil a review camera. As you’ve stated, bias …. Canon knew in advance they were not getting a fair review from Phil, who has shown his own smallmindedness.

Pixel Perfect wrote: That's not Nikon's fault and doesn't detract from their current lineup, but Phil's losing fans and clearly hasn't forgiven Canon over their treatment of him in the past.

Just because Nikon has ads on Amazon, doesn't mean they put pressure on Phil. Maybe Amazon had a quite word to him but I don't believe Nikon would have anything to do with what Phil writes. That is too cynical even by my standards.

Although it should have no bearing on his reviews, Canon have treated Askey with contempt for a while now, so don't make out their innocent victims.

Apr 21, 2008 at 02:00 AM

hyperion
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #24 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

So?

Why are you surprised by that?

Do you really think people buy the D3 "just" for image quality? For those who need it, the speed, and durability of the D3 is amazing.

Apr 21, 2008 at 02:22 AM

gbee
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #25 · dpreview: 5D IQ "very similar" to D3's

And for such a BIG company to take such a personal interest in one man .... he must have royally given them the big finger behind the scenes ~~ and ant acting like an elephant comes to mind.

Read between the lines, you don't boycott a reviewer just for one bad review ... you'd work with him like they did with Galbraith ... we have precedents in this case.

Pixel Perfect wrote: Although it should have no bearing on his reviews, Canon have treated Askey with contempt for a while now, so don't make out their innocent victims.

Apr 21, 2008 at 07:49 AM


FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Image Upload 1 2 end