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Ben Horne
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p.2 #1 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

danmitchell wrote:

No, not at 12 x 18. If you held the two prints side by side and inspected very closely - but only if you printed on certain papers - and went back and forth between them long enough my might convince yourself there was a difference, but you might just be imagining it and you would be the only person to make the selection in an A/B test.

So you've compared them in person as well? I was able to see a difference, but maybe I just have stellar eyes. The difference is how the fine details are rendered.

Edited on Apr 16, 2008 at 08:03 PM

Apr 16, 2008 at 08:02 PM

simonella_viru
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p.2 #2 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

i can't speak about 12x18s printed with the 1ds3, but i can say this for sure: a 12x18 printed with the 5d is SPECTACULAR. in a practical sense, the 5d is simply a phenomenal camera for the price. also, the 5d has a better form factor in my opinion (smaller, lighter).

Apr 16, 2008 at 08:13 PM

HenkvdT
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p.2 #3 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

brainiac wrote:
Hmmm. Pretty numbers, but I don't think I'm seeing that in reality. The 1Ds3, provided you use good technique, does seem to be able to out-detail the 5D a lot of the time. F8 and good lenses help, but it's amazing what a 17-40 can do at F8. Don't forget there's a culture here that a lens which can't use every pixel to the very corner of the frame is, by rights, landfill. For many photographers what matters is what you see over most of the frame, and the corners are largely irrelevant.

Also, it's not just about detail. Tone is better, maybe due to 14 bit, and I can now shoot at 1600 iso what I used to shoot at 800.

Sure, you just don't see it in 12x18 prints unless you put them under a microscope.

Apr 16, 2008 at 09:24 PM

Ben Horne
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p.2 #4 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Just out of curiosity, how many of those who are saying that the 5D is just the same at 12x18 have owned and shot both and actually compared the results? I suspect that it is mostly based on assumptions of people who have not used the 1DsIII. I have owned both, and printed both at 12x18.

Apr 16, 2008 at 10:43 PM

rprouty
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p.2 #5 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I guess I'm going to find out...UPS should deliver it on Monday..

Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47 PM

brainiac
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p.2 #6 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

SoundHound wrote:
Example: If you shoot at or above 1600 ISO the larger pixels of the 12Mp camera can render a better image than a 21Mp sensor that must have more noise.

That is not my experience. The 1Ds3 at 1600 iso produces results which look like a 5D at 800. At 3200 it looks like a 5D at 1600. Although each 1Ds3 pixel may be noisier than a 5D pixel, there are nearly twice as many of them. It is not noise per pixel but noise per square millimeter of output that matters. To get an idea of the comparitive noise level you should downrez the 21 megapixel to 12 megapixels and then compare per pixel noise. Or make prints.

Edited by brainiac on Apr 17, 2008 at 12:25 AM GMT

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 12:25 AM

Apr 17, 2008 at 12:16 AM

SoundHound
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p.2 #7 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Encouraging brainiac! I, presently use a D3 @ 6400 and can print up to 24x36." Although this is the Canon forum that is, now, my 12 MP standard. Not so sure how the 1Ds Mk III would compare. But very interested in any camera that will give me an edge.

Apr 17, 2008 at 12:25 AM

brainiac
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p.2 #8 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

SoundHound wrote:
Encouraging brainiac! I, presently use a D3 @ 6400 and can print up to 24x36." Although this is the Canon forum that is, now, my 12 MP standard. Not so sure how the 1Ds Mk III would compare. But very interested in any camera that will give me an edge.

There have been a few threads on this. It's my opinion that the 1Ds3 more or less matches the D3 at 6400 and 12800 if you use desktop noise reduction to match Nikon's in-camera noise reduction and downrez to 12 megapixel. You have to push a raw file and set 3200 iso and -1 exposure compensation, so it's a pain for JPEG shooters, but it illustrates that total image noise is a sensor-size and generational issue more than a cell-size issue.

Here's a 12800 iso 1Ds3 file shot under the very dim light of a low-energy light bulb:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

downrezzed to D3 dimensions:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

with D3-like noise reduction:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The real problem is streaking in the blue channel, but even the D3 seems to suffer from that.

Edited by brainiac on Apr 17, 2008 at 12:39 AM GMT

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 12:39 AM

Apr 17, 2008 at 12:33 AM

akovacsi
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p.2 #9 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

rprouty wrote:
I guess I'm going to find out...UPS should deliver it on Monday..

Dude - the 5DMkII will be out within 2 months, and the price of 5D will be reduced by at least $500... do you really need a 5D... waiting 2 months may be a good idea... no?

Apr 17, 2008 at 12:37 AM

OutsideShooter
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p.2 #10 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

rprouty, you have here more than enough reason to go either way. I personally cannot see the justification in the MIII's price tag, but you might. Here's a read you might really enjoy:

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium_Format_Blog/Entries/2008/3/29_REBALANCING_THE_FUND.html

Of course there's a bit more here than this one read, but try this one first. And this from a man who is used to a MF body.

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:09 AM

Hrow
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p.2 #11 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I was told that I would see a big difference between a 1DMkIII and a 1DsMkIII file. I was skeptical. I was also wrong.

There is a significant difference between the two and although the 1DMkIII is two MP's short of the 5D, I don't think resolution is the only thing at play.

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:16 AM

stanj
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p.2 #12 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Glad to see you're liking it, Henry

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:48 AM

Beni
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p.2 #13 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

From my experience at native resolution (5D) you may not see any resolution differences though the 14bit of the 1Ds mkIII may give better tonality theoretically. Once you start to uprez the difference will become pretty apparent, there is something about uprezzing which makes digital images fall apart in the fine detail for close viewing in a way that film doesn't, no doubt due to the cleanliness of the file (film has grain and muck to break up the lack of detail).

More to the point, the moment you crop the file your native resolution drops dramatically. If you shoot lose for an 4:5 crop or usually apply a little tilt and/or tidying of the file you would be surprised how fast 13 megapixels becomes 10. The 5D doesn't have a 100% viewfinder and you would be surprised how often that 5% needs cropping off because of elements you haven't seen. With more resolution, however much it may not be necessary in theory, it does give you a lot of extra resolution. Hell, yesterday I was applying some perspective correction in PS, 3 megapixels gone in a flash.

You can get a 18X12" at native resolution (240DPI is good enough for that size print) if your picture is perfect out of camera every time and you don't want to print larger then 24X16" then a 5D ,resolution wise, is enough especially with excellent glass. In my very personal opinion even slight uprezzing doesn't look natural if the picture will be viewed close up as most landscape type pictures are in which case more is better, even just as a safety net.

Keep in mind also that your choice of subject matter is super crucial to the decision, although this is a landscape image it has very little that requires actual resolving of detail and even in this 8 megapixel crop of a 5D file (to make it a pano) all the detail you would expect to see has been resolved and prints beautifully. It's when you uprez without adding detail that you would expect to see, for example a street scene with a signpost that is uprezzed large enough to be big enough that you would expect to read the sign, but the text is just mush, etc.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 06:32 AM

Apr 17, 2008 at 06:26 AM

brainiac
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p.2 #14 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Good point: an improved facility to crop is one of the great joys of the 1Ds3. As long as you've ensured your lens is delivering, you can take away nearly half the image and still have something that competes with a 5D frame.

Apr 17, 2008 at 08:52 AM

Emile Gregoire
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p.2 #15 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I just received 8 architectural prints, sized 30" x 50", all taken with a 5D as I don't have a 1Ds. While without any doubt the 1Ds III prints would have been way better I must say I'm still extremely pleased with the results. Uprezzed with Genuine Fractals Pro 5 and printed by a professional, you can stand 10 inches from the prints without feeling bad about them, and I tend to be very critical of my own work ( as I guess we all are - critical of my work that is

).

Should I receive more architectural jobs, I will get a 1Ds though. No doubt about that.

Apr 17, 2008 at 02:58 PM

danmitchell
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p.2 #16 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Beni wrote:
From my experience at native resolution (5D) you may not see any resolution differences though the 14bit of the 1Ds mkIII may give better tonality theoretically.

That's not quite how the extra bits work, or perhaps I misunderstand you.

The extra bits are devoted to more finely "describing" light levels within more or less a similar dynamic range. A place where this could be significant would be if you were making some fairly radical adjustments to curves, etc., in which case banding might not become apparent quite so quickly.

BTW, the whole "native resolution" thing is an interesting concept but not a necessary standard for photo quality. Essentially, the resolution required for an effective print varies depending on a number of factors, but the print size is certainly one of them. There is a very well reasoned point of view that says that very high resolutions (e.g. 300 "dpi" or higher) are more important in small prints than in large prints since they are generally inspected much more closely. Some respected photographic experts who hold this view are also convinced that lower resolutions (e.g. 180 "dpi") can be quite good in a larger print.

A useful experience for many would be to go and closely inspect some gallery prints of well-known photographs by some of the best photographers. Many (I'd say most) of these beautiful and high quality images are very definitely not "sharp" according to the standard that some are proposing here.

Dan

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 04:00 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 03:55 PM

Ben Horne
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p.2 #17 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

danmitchell wrote:

That's not quite how the extra bits work, or perhaps I misunderstand you.

The extra bits are devoted to more finely "describing" light levels within more or less a similar dynamic range. A place where this could be significant would be if you were making some fairly radical adjustments to curves, etc., in which case banding might not become apparent quite so quickly.

Dan

In practice, the 14 bit does lend itself to better dynamic range. This is because you can tweak the recovery and fill sliders in CS3 without losing quality to the same degree that you would with the 12 bit 1Ds2. On the 1Ds2, if I tweak the recovery more than maybe 20 or so, the highlight areas start to go gray and have weird banding. You can tweak it all the way to 100 on the 1DsIII and have no loss of quality. You can tweak the shadow areas a lot better than the 1Ds2 as well, but if you crank it all the way, you will get some more noise. It's a lot better than the 1Ds2 with the 12 bit processing though. Again, this is the type of thing where you need to work with the files from this camera to get a feeling for. You can read all the specs you want, but it is no substitute.

I've been reading a lot of commentary about the 1DsIII vs. 5D, but it seems like those who say that the 5D is almost every bit the equal have never laid hand on a 1DsIII.

BTW, the whole "native resolution" thing is an interesting concept but not a necessary standard for photo quality. Essentially, the resolution required for an effective print varies depending on a number of factors, but the print size is certainly one of them. There is a very well reasoned point of view that says that very high resolutions (e.g. 300 "dpi" or higher) are more important in small prints than in large prints since they are generally inspected much more closely. Some respected photographic experts who hold this view are also convinced that lower resolutions (e.g. 180 "dpi") can be quite good in a larger print.

My cameras shoot in megapixels, not megadots.

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 04:05 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:03 PM

Gerry Szarek
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p.2 #18 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I have a very nice 12X18 picture hanging in my hallway done with a mere 6MP Contax N FF camera (ok the guy who did it is an incredible photographer far better than I will ever be), incredible is all I have to say. Anything above 6MP in the right hands is overkill but that's my opinion, as others have different view as noted above. What more pixels give you is the ability to crop and fix mistakes which we all make.

I however don't need more than 12.8 MP in the new 5DmkII however a F8 AF system will be nice, along with weather sealing, 5FPS, and a bigger buffer.

Disclosure I don't make my living from my photographs.

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:10 PM

Ken Chow
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p.2 #19 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Those of us who *do* make a living from photography understand what the 1Ds3 files give us. Ben nailed it - you don't know until you've been there.

My venerable 5D is a worthy backup, much more so than the D30!

Ken

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:29 PM

Volleybob
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p.2 #20 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Assuming you need 5 megapixels for particular print size, the IIIDs gives much more cropping latitude to arrive at those 5 megapixels. This is very important for sports action photography when composition gets compromised.

If you already have any DSLR I'd wait till Canon finally dumps the cropped frame pro body and fixes the focus point spread of the Ds. Currently Canon is using the same focus point arrangement in both pro bodies. The perimeter points come close to far enough from the center on the crippled crop body, but are no where near the classic 1/3 composition points in the Ds.

Apr 17, 2008 at 04:44 PM

Beni
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p.2 #21 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Join the club, same problem with the focus points in the 5D, same size unit as in the 20D just far more 'edge' that they don't reach due to the larger sensor.

Dan, I'm not a techy so there is little doubt that I'm wrong, I was just repeating what I'm hearing from fellow wedding photographers, I had assumed that if you have more transitions or better descriptions between light values then that translates to smoother tones, a less 'jagged' jump between each tonal value.

I don't have a 1Ds mkIII but I do have a large format camera with a multi layer stitching back for my 5D. I know what a 40X20" image at 350 DPI gives you in direct comparison for resolved detail and more importantly incredible tonality. Yes it's SUPREME overkill as far as pure megapixels are concerned but I get a lot of room to crop, including important persective corrections (for architecture, the adaptor only allows about 1cm of movement each way with the LF camera), I personally believe that for large print sizes 250DPI is the maximum that you will be able to see, although, again, it's very much overkill to get that resolution, even with cropping, I don't know of any better way to achieve significantly higher resolution and tonality than my 5D for architecture short of stupidly expensive MFDB's that cannot be justified by this side of my business (hobby really though I want a portfolio to make me pocket money when I retire from my wedding business). I can get 208DPI from the 1Ds mkIII using the t/s method of flat stitching, important for architecture, at the print size I'm using, 36X18", it's one hell of an investment though, what is incredible is that you can get that kind of resolution from a 35mm DSLR!

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 07:38 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 07:31 PM

stanj
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p.2 #22 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I have printed quite large numbers of pictures at 24x36 (and even bigger) from the 1Ds, 1Ds2, 1Ds3, 1D2N and 5D. I would place the 1D2N worst closely followed by the 5D for this purpose.

There is a significant, hard to describe difference between the 5D and the 1Ds2, not to mention 1Ds3, when it comes to printing, and the difference can be seen already at 10x15", my most common print size. It's not a simple, quantifiable measure like pixels or bit depth; but the difference between the 5D and the 1Ds2 / 1Ds3 is huge. Even a properly exposed ISO 100 landscape shot from the 1Ds will print better than the same from a 5D, but that difference is less obvious, and pretty much limited to ISO 100/200 applications.

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 10:17 PM

Sean Reidy
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p.2 #23 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

It always saddens me to see gearheads debating endlessly the relative merits of different lenses or bodies. How many of you can say that you are truly getting the best results out of the equipment you have? How many of you could benefit more from better composition, better imagination, better vision and more creativity than from more megapixels? Will the next lens or camera body really make you a better photographer? The quality of what you produce has much more to do with your mind than with your camera.

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 10:35 PM

stanj
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p.2 #24 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

I don't really see myself as a gearhead. I actually use my equipment, a lot. I am perfectly happy to admit my deficiencies, shortcomings and even fears. But I will equally happily take anything that will make these shortcomings less apparent, because that _will_ make my pictures better. For instance, indoor photos with the 1Ds3 vs. 1Ds are without dispute better, regardless whether it's Some God-Like Pro at the wheel or me. It was my decision to bury 3x $8k on a camera body, who are you to judge. I always happily credit the equipment used, not for bragging but rather to put it in perspective: my 1Ds3 pictures suck in comparison to someone's photos with the D30, and I am fine with that. I strive to improve, and I think I have over the years, but I am simply not as talented as others, so what. I shoot maybe 50k frames per year, have done so for decades (well a bit less with film but still), and for me it's fun. These are my money, my pictures, my memories - if you don't like them, skip to the next poster.

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 10:45 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 10:43 PM

Enir
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p.2 #25 · 12.8 MP vs 21.1MP?

Sean Reidy wrote:
It always saddens me to see gearheads debating endlessly the relative merits of different lenses or bodies. How many of you can say that you are truly getting the best results out of the equipment you have? How many of you could benefit more from better composition, better imagination, better vision and more creativity than from more megapixels? Will the next lens or camera body really make you a better photographer?

Yes, it will. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/Yes_It_Matters.shtml

The quality of what you produce has much more to do with your mind than with your camera.

Edited on Apr 17, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Apr 17, 2008 at 11:27 PM


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