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S-Jones
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p.1 #1 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


I became involved in photography about three years ago, dealing only with digital. I still plan to use a dslr (awaiting the 5D's successor), but a burgeoning interest in rangefinders has forced me to consider film. Currently, I use manual focus-only primes on a Canon 350D, which I only use in manual mode just for the love of the experience. I convert all shots to monochrome.

I cannot afford the Leica M8, and even the Epson RD-1s, which is still available here in Tokyo, is a bit pricey. More than this, however, I primarily do street and urban photography, and I would like to produce some of the graininess (T-Max pushed a few stops, I think) that digital just cannot replicate.

I do not have the time or space to set up a darkroom, so I planned on having the film developed professionally, and then sending the negatives through a scanner, using my Epson 2400 to print them out after some post processing (dodging/burning effects, etc). I realize and appreciate that all of this is heresy for silver halide lovers, but it is just one of those insurmountable logistical constraints that I must face alone.

When I checked scanners around or under US$1,000, I first looked at the Nikon Coolscan V ED, but some folks said that in the case of silver B&W negatives, the scanner's light was allegedly too harsh---not diffuse enough---to effectively capture shadow detail or control blown highlights in dense films. Others claimed that it also pronounced grain, which in my case, might be a benefit, unless its rendering becomes excessive (comparisons to point-source enlargers occasionally popped up). Minolta is supposedly better, but discontinued….

Then I checked out the flatbed scanners, the Epson 750-Pro scanner and the recently released Microtek ArtixScan MI/F1. These seemed attractive, because they also accepted medium and large format films, allowing me to pick up a Holga on the side. Yet, there were several arguments that with 35mm films in particular, because of their small size, no flatbed could currently compete with a dedicated film scanner.

So back to the Nikon, although now checking out the Nikon Coolscan 5000. Yet, I did not find anything stating that it handled silver B&W negatives any better than the V ED, assuming that any actual problems exists. Others countered that misuse of the machines caused poor quality scans.

I've read a number of reviews and forums on the matter, which can be as detrimental as beneficial, given the inevitable disparity of views. Not helping matters was that much of the discussion focused on color slides.

I already use curves to post process my digital shots, so I don't mind going into Photoshop to work on any scanned images. Yet, I'm still walking away from all this somewhat feeling that if I want acceptable scanned prints capable of reproducing the film's high dynamic range (latitude) and sharpness, I'll need a US$10,000 to US$20,000 drum scanner. But then I'll see what I think is a great scan from a Coolscan V, at least for a web-based photo, ultimately leaving me fried.

Finally, the inquiry. For people who shoot and scan potentially high grain, high contrast B&W negatives, what has been your experience using a flatbed or dedicated scanner? To be sure, assuming you folks respond (which I appreciate), this will generate another set of divergent views, but at least hopefully within the scope of B&W film, scanners, and my budget.

Also, "acceptable" is subjective, and I realize that the best way is to test the products out for myself. Yet, for various reasons, including potential language barriers, I'm not sure if that is an option here, especially since I don't have any negatives to use. So I'm flying a little blind here, but hopefully some additional guidance will get me going the right direction.

I'm excited to get going with a Bessa RF and a 35mm Color Skopar f2.5, but I've hit an impasse with this scanner dilemma.

Thanks for any comments,
Steve


Feb 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM
tomm101
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p.1 #2 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


Steve,
As a former Leica shooter I understand where you are coming from. I have resently done some 35mm B&W scans on an Epson V700, I have worked with this scanner and it is reasonably sharp. I am getting good grain and shadow detail. I have a Minolta Multi at home and may try the same neg with that too, I have found it to be sharper than the V700 but doesn't have the same dynamic range. DR is where the "low" range Nikons have falllen in the past, don't have enough punch to get highlights without loosing shadows, but I don't have experience with the V. The LS 5000 was a significant improvement on their upper end from the LS4000 and especially the LS2000. I have an 11x14 silver print of this neg (D2 enlarger, Leitz 50mm focotar) so i'll have to compare it to the digital print.

Tom


Feb 12, 2008 at 06:10 PM
papageno
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p.1 #3 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


If you want to mail me a strip of negatives I'll run a scan or two on a 9000. I have to admit to curiosity on this.

Email me for address if this interests you.

Feb 13, 2008 at 03:22 AM
S-Jones
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p.1 #4 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


tomm101 wrote:As a former Leica shooter I understand where you are coming from. I have resently done some 35mm B&W scans on an Epson V700, I have worked with this scanner and it is reasonably sharp. I am getting good grain and shadow detail. I have a Minolta Multi at home and may try the same neg with that too, I have found it to be sharper than the V700 but doesn't have the same dynamic range. DR is where the "low" range Nikons have falllen in the past, don't have enough punch to get highlights without loosing shadows, but I don't have experience with the V. The LS 5000 was a significant improvement on their upper end from the LS4000 and especially the LS2000. I have an 11x14 silver print of this neg (D2 enlarger, Leitz 50mm focotar) so i'll have to compare it to the digital print.

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm inching towards the flatbed (Epson or Microtek), as it would also accommodate medium format scans. If I shot color, I would have little hesitation going the way of the dedicated Nikons, but I'm concerned about reported issues with silver B&W negatives. Wavering all over the place with this, which is aggravating, since I'm set to pick up a rangefinder. Anyway, I'm interested in hearing your take on your comparison with the 11x14 print.

papageno wrote:
If you want to mail me a strip of negatives I'll run a scan or two on a 9000. I have to admit to curiosity on this.

Email me for address if this interests you.


At this point, I have not invested in a film camera yet, as I'm still trying to determine what scanner to purchase first. This presents a conundrum of sorts, since I don't have any negatives to tests, but thank you for the offer.


Steve



Feb 13, 2008 at 09:24 AM
JMJM
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p.1 #5 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


I've got the Minolta 5400 and it is indeed great for B/W. I have to monkey around with the grain which gets scanned really well as well, but that seems to be coming around with Neat Image and tinkering. I've been tempted to open it up to see about diffusing the light source more as in printing with cold light sources, which I do. But really too chicken at the moment to do that. You can apparently find used ones on Ebay. (There is an article with regards to cancelling out the grain of a negative by creating a reference scan and somehow applying it to the negative. Unfortunately I can't seem to find it anymore. .......victim of a computor crash.)

Feb 14, 2008 at 02:49 AM
Alan321
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p.1 #6 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


Maybe you can scan a B&W film twice at different exposures and combine them in the computer just like you would combine a couple of bracketed digital images for added dynamic range. It ought to work well, but can you actually print all of that dynamic range ?

One other possibility is to make an excellent print from the film and then scan the print using a latbed scanner. I expect that the print should be within the DR capability of the scanner.

As for the scanners producing pronounced grain, I think it more a case of a moire inteference pattern between the actual film grain and the grid-like scanner sensor producing what is interpreted as severe grain. I know the sensor is actually a row but it moves along and scans one row at a time, effectively producing a grid pattern as if a rectangular sensor had been used. The significant thing is that the amount of grain seen in the scanned images is much higher than you ever see on a projected slide but it can be cleaned up pretty well with good noise reduction software such as Neat Image Pro.

Scanning at 4000 dpi and sharpening will produce far more detail than scanning at 2000 dpi or scanning at 4000 dpi without sharpening.

Unlike flatbed scanners the dedicated film scanners have no glass between the film and the lens. I don't know how much that matters but I suspect that it can't be bad.

If your B&W film has a 3-D surface on one side then the Digital-ICE features in the scanner cannot be used and you will have to take more care to avoid dust and scratches.

How much film do you intend to scan ? I'm sure that you could do a decent job with "almost any" scanner (some exaggeration) and then pay someone to do a great job with a drum scanner on just the occasional very special negatives. That could save you a lot of money on the scanner.

- Alan


Feb 14, 2008 at 08:41 PM
S-Jones
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p.1 #7 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


Thanks for the additional comments.

Following much deliberation, I have decided to pick up a Nikon Coolscan V ED after seeing more than enough fine lookin' Tri-x photos on the Internet that were scanned with the machine. That said, if this venture into film takes, then I will likely pick up a flatbed next year to deal with medium format, as I am still eyeing a Holga.

The complaints against the Coolscan scanners centered on their sharpening (exaggeration) of grain, and their inability to control highlights with dense negatives. From what I've read, issues of moiré do not appear to be the problem, as much as pronounced grain. Of course, people are also starting to judge the images by looking at 100 percent crops, so I think this has also changed expectations. In any event, I've come across some tips on how to ameliorate these issues, at least for the most part; and besides, I'm not seeking to remove the grain. In fact, I want it with film, not with digital.

To note, the new Microtek ArtixScan M1 flatbed scanner uses some sort of glassless contraption to scan the 35mm negatives. However, the scanner was recently released, so reliable reviews are still scarce. By next year, I'll have a better idea about which flatbed to choose.

Yeah, Digital-ICE will not work with silver B&W's, so I'll be extra retentive with the negatives.

I think Scanhancer (http://www.scanhancer.com/) makes defusing devices for the Minoltas, but I'm not sure for which specific models.

I will be using both digital and film, so I will probably only go through three or so rolls a month, of which about ten percent of shots will be worth doing a careful scan; so I have time to do proper post processing. That is, I'm not looking at any bulk work.

I still have a few more weeks before I need to pick up the scanner, so I might change my mind, but right now, I'm at peace, awaiting the arrival of my Bessa R2M…


Feb 15, 2008 at 10:54 AM
christo™
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p.1 #8 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


The CoolScan is the best I've found. You'll likely still end up with a flatbed at some point. Forget about scanning prints compared to negatives.

Feb 15, 2008 at 04:05 PM
jgrau
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p.1 #9 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


Have you considered sending the negatives to www.scancafe.com? The prices seem reasonable and the resolution seems superb.

Feb 15, 2008 at 04:31 PM
S-Jones
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p.1 #10 · Scanner for 35mm B&W…


christo™ wrote:
The CoolScan is the best I've found. You'll likely still end up with a flatbed at some point. Forget about scanning prints compared to negatives.


Yes, I feel pretty comfortable with the choice; looking forward to getting the process going..

A flatbed will definitely be necessary next year, if I pick up a Holga or any number of medium format cameras that have dropped in price over the years (Mamiya 645 Super, old TLRs, etcs). If there was one issue that attained any modicum of consensus, it was the proficient ability of flatbeds (Epson 700, Microtek M1) to scan medium and large format.
Ordered a Bessa today, and I'll pick up a lens tomorrow. A 36-roll of Tri-X is just under $US4 here; so not bad.

jgrau wrote:
Have you considered sending the negatives to www.scancafe.com? The prices seem reasonable and the resolution seems superb.


Thanks for the suggestion, but the trip across the ocean and back might be a bit precarious.


Edited on Feb 16, 2008 at 12:53 PM


Feb 16, 2008 at 12:52 PM

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