fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Forum & Miscellaneous | Join Upload & Sell

1 2

4 end

Archive 2008 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #1 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

That's fine. I understand what you are saying, I just don't see that the situation on the whole is any where near as bad as you see it. Just two different perspectives.

And I don't know about you, but I'm hardley a wall flower...I gently push the limits of where I can shoot all the time...I just don't do anything stupid like the clown who 6 months after 9/11 went under the Wilson Bridge and started taking photos. But then again, read my story on NYU...that is hardly being passive and it worked. I have other stories too but the point gets repetitive.

And for the record, being nice to police has gotten me far more great shots than it has prevented. I have a whole series that I will not put online on Metro Police that would have been impossible without them feeling I was not a threat.

Also as I was careful to write before, the authorities at the Fed Reserve were District of Columbia Police, not security guards...big difference....meaning they were professionals and I saw nothing wrong with how they treated me.

And for what it is worth, I have press creds and shoot on assignment too. None of the situations described in this thread tho involved working for a newspaper...just me as regular photog with the press creds in the pocket. I never use them at all unless on assignment.

Edited on Feb 07, 2008 at 05:01 PM

Feb 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #2 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

paulhodson wrote:
Recent UK case

A couple were banned for life from a shopping centre - because they were taking photos of their beloved grandchildren.

They were ordered to stop taking photos because they were causing a security threat.

The couple were on a four-day break from their home in Spain and wanted to surprise their family by arriving at the centre while they were shopping. But when they went to take a photo, a security guard pounced and ordered them out.

The guard then insisted that cameras were banned because of the risk of a terrorist attack - and barred the bemused couple for life.

The...Show more →

Agreed, that sounds over the top.

Here in the US you generally cannot take any photos in any shopping mall...but it has nothing to do with terrorism. Mabye the UK has different issues there? It also sounds like the center manager is reaching out a bit so they seem to know it was handled badly. The complaint letter was a good idea.

Feb 07, 2008 at 05:04 PM

ontime
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #3 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

mlorne wrote:
I guess my point is that the very fact that they believe that they can ask you to stop taking photos and that you simply agree to comply without incident, without question. Who will question the authority? You have stated that you will not in practice question that authority and that is your right and your personal decision. But the more and more people that actively avoid confrontation with figures in authority, the more hostile the authorities will become with those that do question the enforcement of written or unwritten rules.

It seems these days that the reaction to non-compliance goes...Show more →

I agree with this perspective. It is ignorance to say that minor incidents do not contribute to a larger, significant picture, and it is irresponsibility to accept many of these minor transgressions as anything but the system crossing the line. We are all liberals, and it is our duty as citizens to raise questions about these issues.

Of course, I speak not of revolution. That's silly. The questions must be raised, but the situation probably requires nothing more. At best, battles must be chosen, and battles cannot be won by flashing our speedlights into the eyes of policemen.

I also don't speak of 1984, but ask yourself: truly, how far away are we from the scenarios we've read in science fiction? Meh, I won't go any further. You get the idea.

Feb 08, 2008 at 01:28 AM

andrew_rs
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #4 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Shane Canfield wrote:
once the weather breaks, headed to the National Zoo. Curious about tripods there and if any limits on telephoto lenses.

The national Zoo is open to just about any non-commercial photography. You can shoot there commercially with permission, though. I've used a tripod there but it was during a pretty dead time. During busy times, tripods might be frowned upon if you're blocking pathways or inconveniencing others. As for lens size, I doubt there is an policy limiting the size of the lens. I've used a 100-400 there with no problem. I can't think of too many places in the zoo where you'd want anything more than 400mm. You can get fairly close to most of the animals.

The National Gallery is also quite open to photography with a couple of notable caveats. First, you can't bring backpacks into the exhibitions. You'll have to check them. However, I've never had any problem getting my domke F2 through, so I'd image that they'd be ok with just about any shoulder bag. Most of the special exhibitions prohibit photography as well. However I've seen plenty of people snap away in the permanent collections rooms, the rotunda, and other places. The sculpture garden just to the west of the gallery is also a nice place to take pictures.

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:33 AM

Alex53
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #5 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

I am concerned with the way 'fighting terrorism' has been used by people in positions of authority at every level as a justification to abuse their power, or at the very least make their own job easier by circumventing the regulations or limitations usually put there to protect the public from abuses in the first place.

That said, I think its useful to join a photography club or society that produces a membership card. Carrying it and being able to produce it when explaining that you are photographing because its your hobby, passion or job, goes a long way to sounding believable and convincing the concerned or slightly paranoid as it may be.

It is even more useful if those photography clubs and societies liaise with the police in their area and promote awareness of what photographers do and why they do it, and explain that some places while innocuous to the average person might still be interesting photographically.

Sometimes it all boils down to the fact that non-photographers simply cant see why you'd be taking photos of certain things. Their understanding of photography might be something you use exclusively to take photos of people who are posing, or beautiful landscapes with mountains and rivers. So they get suspicious that you have some more sinister motive.

Feb 08, 2008 at 05:39 AM

jeffbuzz
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #6 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

I believe it is my personal responsibility as a citizen of the United States to protect and defend our hard won rights and freedoms. It is my responsibility as a photographer to represent the profession in a positive light. At the same time I must ensure that my right to take photographs in properly respected by others. Our liberties are constantly under siege. Not only by forces outside our nation, but by forces within it as well. To paraphrase our nation's founding fathers: "Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither."

We need to defend our rights and educate those who would chip away at them. Are we really safer in a world where no one can do anything without permission? That is the definition of a police state. And in many ways, the US already meets that definition.

Feb 08, 2008 at 02:38 PM

Craig Gillette
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #7 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

You'd think nobody ever called the cops before 9-11. That's gotta be some of the most foolish stuff ever posted here. Grow up. Get a life. People have been calling the cops forever (it was, of course harder before phones.). I had neighbors in an apartment house across the street that called the cops everytime they didn't recognize someone. Usually it was harmless, caught a couple of burglars in their apartment complex one time, in the basement another. Made life miserable for the Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS missionaries as well.

And nobody even had a camera! Go figure. It's a camera, not an invisibility cloak. BTW, cameras aren't suspicious, people are. You guys act like Jim Carey as a "Licensed limo driver!"

Crybabies wouldn't know a police state if you saw one. Running around making ignorant statements. You can't believe it's a police state or you'd be smart enough to not say so in public. That may be the key to some of your comments.

Feb 08, 2008 at 07:47 PM

ericevans
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #8 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

nathanlake wrote:
It happens. Just get used to it and have your explanation ready for the police. They have people pointing cameras at them all the time now. They will usually be understanding as long as you don't act bizarre or too defensive.

I was on a airplane a year or so ago and just snapped a picture of a little kid sitting across the aisle. His parents went ballistic, accusing me of some pretty terrible things. They finally sat back down without any violence (came close), but when we arrived it turns out they had asked the captain to call the police...Show more →

If it was my kid you just decided to snap a picture of you might have got a imprint of a camera on your face . You need to ask permission if you are going to photograph someone else's child as there are a bunch of creeps around these days . I don't blame the parents for getting upset , after all it is their kid .

Feb 08, 2008 at 10:14 PM

ericevans
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #9 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

CGrindahl wrote:
I was rousted out by a San Francisco police officer one afternoon as I stood in the public right of way on a road running behind San Francisco International Airport and took photos of planes taking off. Granted, this was perhaps six months after 9/11 and everyone was pretty paranoid, especially around airports, but the guy was way out of bounds. I decided not to make an issue since he threatened to give me a ticket that I would then have had to argue in court. I have better things to do with my time so I jumped in my...Show more →

Not getting harassed is as easy as making a few phone calls or sending a e-mail telling them where you will be and what you are doing . Get the names of everyone you talk to so if you are questioned you can say I talked to Bill or Sue with the TSA and they know I am here . If you get bothered by the cops it is your fault for not letting them know you are going to be there . You would be amazed what kind of access you can get if you talk to people first .

Feb 08, 2008 at 10:22 PM

ontime
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #10 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Craig Gillette wrote:
You'd think nobody ever called the cops before 9-11. That's gotta be some of the most foolish stuff ever posted here. Grow up. Get a life. People have been calling the cops forever (it was, of course harder before phones.). I had neighbors in an apartment house across the street that called the cops everytime they didn't recognize someone. Usually it was harmless, caught a couple of burglars in their apartment complex one time, in the basement another. Made life miserable for the Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS missionaries as well.

And nobody even had a camera! Go figure. It's...Show more →

I can call the cops, but how is that the whole point of this thread?

Within a police state - a state of fear - it may be difficult to understand you are part of one. As Linda Green puts it,

I went home wondering if perhaps I was being hysterical. Had I become too preoccupied by the violence while doing fieldwork? Was I misconstruing the terror I had felt? Gradually I came to realize that terror�s power, its matter-of-factness, is exactly about doubting one�s own perception of reality. The routinization of terror is what fuels its power. Such routinization allows people to live in a chronic state of fear behind a fa�ade of normalcy, even while that terror permeates and shreds the social fabric.

Of course, from a more detached perspective, it may be more simple. I don't think the United States has reached your polarized definition of "police state," however, I think incidents we have read here and experienced ourselves have provided for some qualifications toward a looser definition of police state, with the repression of photographer's rights being one of many incidents. Yes, I'm young, and no, I haven't personally lived in a society that has been under the strict definition of a "police state" but I've sure heard the stories of and spoken with those who have. Again, we come nowhere near it, but there's no need to approach it by any means; that's why we bring these issues up.

Then again, you probably believe that what the state deems as "security" actually protects us from the attacks that they aim to prevent. There's about 95% illusion there, and 5% physical security. Let's not let that 5% take away many times that amount in personal freedom - it's not worth it.

Feb 09, 2008 at 01:26 AM

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #11 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Maybe we can bring back a little sense of reality to this discussion and save it from hysterical notions of "police state" and the 'powers that be' talk and refocus on issues surrounding photography in the real world.

The basic idea when you have a camera in hand is to not push the rights of others too hard. If you do, expect some push back. Don't stick you camera in someone's face, don't set up a tripod in front of the Capitol building, is this list necessary for thinking photogs? If you get in a situation, use your head, act like an adult and it works out just fine. Been there, done that.

Edited on Feb 09, 2008 at 01:48 AM

Feb 09, 2008 at 01:45 AM

Craig Gillette
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #12 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Ontime,
Did you read the title and the first post?

25 or so years ago, a security guard punched a guy outside a hospital my dad was about to get a job at. Not because he had a camera, not because he was taking pictures. Nope, the guard punched him because the guard dog wouldn't bite him. He wanted the dog to bite him because he was urinating (the punchee, not the guard or the dog) on a car on the street. Try as I might, I can't find anyone who thinks that the guard was some early sign of a major government crackdown on the freedom to pee in the streets.

Besides and after the 9-11 attacks in the US, terrorists have killed hundreds more people in Russia, Spain, Bali, the Philippines, India, etc., etc. But not here.

And you worry because some lady wondered what somebody was doing in her neighborhood.

Feb 09, 2008 at 04:23 AM

ontime
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #13 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Did you read the title and the first post?

I've read every single post, and the title. What I meant was that the point of the thread was moving elsewhere, and the issue wasn't simply about x calling the cops on y, since stories had been given about security guards, cops, etc, reacting to situations rather than being called upon by other citizens.

25 or so years ago, a security guard punched a guy outside a hospital my dad was about to get a job at. Not because he had a camera, not because he was taking pictures. Nope, the guard punched him because the guard dog wouldn't bite him. He wanted the dog to bite him because he was urinating (the punchee, not the guard or the dog) on a car on the street. Try as I might, I can't find anyone who thinks that the guard was some early sign of a major government crackdown on the freedom to pee in...Show more →

Right, but even individual acts of violence can be seen to fit a larger pattern. Think about it. There are connections, similarities between the most petty crimes on the street and the actions of warlords, terrorists, and "police states" worldwide.

Besides and after the 9-11 attacks in the US, terrorists have killed hundreds more people in Russia, Spain, Bali, the Philippines, India, etc., etc. But not here.

Thankfully. But it's not because we've done better. To give you an example or two, look first at, say, the port of Rotterdam. It probably handles 1 million TEUs per year (TEU = twenty foot equivalent unit, or basically those big matson containers you've probably seen). One million. Ports like Rotterdam, or Los Angeles probably check at most 5% of those TEUs. Someone I know spent two weeks traveling on a cargo ship, getting off at every port it reached. She was never even asked for a passport or any paperwork. She never saw any TEUs opened for security checks. These were US ports. This is published material, you can the story yourself.

That's only one example. However, I'm sorry I've already gone this far because this is a photography forum and I don't want to cross the boundary further. I enjoy these sorts of discussions and I think a lot of things need to be brought into light, given the examples we've seen from individual photographers on these boards. I'll stop, but if you'd like to continue PM me or something; I'm open for a good, stimulating argument/discussion.

I never saw anyone in this thread get hysterical, and nothing got out of hand...

So I'm reinvesting in the dSLR world next week, and we have a police force out here that has to deal with the tensions involving campus-city relations, underage drinking, etc, and sometimes they overreact a bit. So I'll try to keep it cool.

Feb 09, 2008 at 12:05 PM

csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #14 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Somebody PM me if this thread ever gets back on track...

Off to a shoot, you know, photography...since I have to drive and walk around with other humans and I have a camera (actually I always shoot with two), my next post will no doubt be from my new jail cell.

Feb 09, 2008 at 12:29 PM

ontime
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #15 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

An FMer awhile back linked to this "photographer's right" which some print out and leave in their bags... I've never had to use it personally, but it may clear things up in a situation.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Feb 09, 2008 at 07:31 PM

Craig Gillette
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #16 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

OK, I'll play the "I'm afraid of where my country is going." game.

I'm afraid of Hillary Clinton. One snotty comment about Chelsea and she wants a man fired from his job. In the press. The "free" press.

"She said the comments were part of a "troubling pattern of demeaning treatment" by the network, according to The Washington Post. "There has been a troubling pattern of comments and behaviors that has to be held accountable." (This is MSNBC she's complaining about.)

Senator Clinton also wrote a letter to NBC News President Steve Capus in which she said, "I became Chelsea's mother long before I ran for any office, and I will always be a mom first and a public official second. Nothing justifies the kind of debasing language that David Shuster used, and no temporary suspension or half-hearted apology is sufficient." (Of course, MTV, source for this material in a larger report, might be part of the vast right-wing or tool of a cleverly disguised White House conspiracy. But I doubt it.)

Would you be comfortable with a President who is so willing to throw his or her weight around against the media? She's threatening to pull out of a public electoral debate because she doesn't like the networks treatment? Do you think she'd be comfortable or equally incensed with an awkward photo of Chelsea? She wants a man fired because she didn't like what he said.

You can be afraid of the lady with the phone or some $8 an hour knob-rattler. I'm afraid of the Democrats.

Edited on Feb 10, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Feb 10, 2008 at 12:26 AM

Alex53
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #17 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Craig Gillette wrote:
OK, I'll play the "I'm afraid of where my country is going." game.

I'm afraid of Hillary Clinton. One snotty comment about Chelsea and she wants a man fired from his job. In the press. The "free" press.

"She said the comments were part of a "troubling pattern of demeaning treatment" by the network, according to The Washington Post. "There has been a troubling pattern of comments and behaviors that has to be held accountable." (This is MSNBC she's complaining about.)

Senator Clinton also wrote a letter to NBC News President Steve Capus in which she said, "I became Chelsea's mother...Show more →

I'm not American but that's some serious electoral spin.

Most people in power will throw their weight around unfortunately, some are just more subtle than others.

Feb 10, 2008 at 04:36 AM

Mike Ganz
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #18 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

ontime wrote:
An FMer awhile back linked to this "photographer's right" which some print out and leave in their bags... I've never had to use it personally, but it may clear things up in a situation.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

A lot of folks refer to this "white paper" that was written by someone that purports to be an attorney. Maybe he is, maybe he's not. Can't really say, but it is the internet. I'm not an attorney either, but I would imagine that these so-called 'rights' can vary from state to state due to the fact that different states can and usually do have different laws on the books. To show a police officer in BFE a "bill of rights" that was drafted by a west coast lawyer may do more harm than good.

Just because we may be armed with a camera does not mean that our 'rights' supercede those of others. In this case, a woman saw a stranger walking around her neighborhood taking pictures. Rather than confront the stranger (which isn't too wise nowadays), she simply reported the matter to the police and they checked it out. After answering a few questions, the photog was free to go about his business. No harm was done.

Edited on Feb 10, 2008 at 08:09 AM

Feb 10, 2008 at 08:07 AM

Monito
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #19 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Krages is an attorney, and if you do your research, you will find that he makes perfect sense. Local state laws are subject to the Constitution of the US. If you think your local law is different, then it is incumbent on you to know or you can just "move along now, nothing to see here". Rather than imagine what your rights are, it is actually very easy to find them and know them. A printout can help educate the cop on the beat, and give them pause to call into their dispatcher to get a clarification, rather than making a mistake and denying you your rights.

With regard to the libelous statement by the NBC anchor, when media people have made similar libels of the Bush family there has been no hesitation by people of your party to call for their dismissal, Mr. Gillette, and not only that but they have actually been dismissed, lest their company be denied access to the Whitehouse. When they haven't been dismissed, a vindictive Whitehouse has denied access to their company. In fact there was a very famous case from 2004 that you have conveniently forgotten about. So we have more to fear from your party, because it actually has happened, not hypothetically.

We have more to fear from the right-wing law-and-order types who view any kind of behavior they don't understand as deviant and suspicious. But you won't mind being locked up in jail, Mr. Gillette. After all, you have nothing to hide, right, and you'll be released in a couple of weeks after an investigation clears you. Just doing your part to give up a little real freedom to obtain some illusion of security.

Edited on Feb 10, 2008 at 11:03 AM

Feb 10, 2008 at 10:53 AM

Craig Gillette
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #20 · Had The Sheriff Called On Me

Bad taste is not libel. Mrs. Clinton, the lawyer knows that. You should too.

Don't try to trade examples about the press and the goverment. A Google search on "2004" and "White House press credentials revoked" was interesting. Not productive in the way you imply, but lots of calls for people to have their credential's revoked. (Oddly enough, many of the cries come from Media Matters. Hmmh.) So I suppose it's possible some "hero" had his or her credentials lifted but it's not all that apparent. Maybe it's due to some continuing right wing dominance of the media and the internet. Yeah, that's it.

Since I live in California, I do fear the left, not the right. I've had to change my behavior, my hobbies, my sports and my activities because of changes to the firearms laws in California. That are there now to make me "safer." I'll leave you to your own paranoias, you'll just have to try to be tolerant enough to accept that I have mine.

But worrying about some lady calling the cops isn't one of them.

Edited on Feb 10, 2008 at 07:27 PM

Feb 10, 2008 at 07:25 PM

1 2 3 4 end
FM Forums \| Forum & Miscellaneous \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 end