nfr5111 wrote:
Funny, I just moved to the greater Denver area and immediately found the lack of good shops in the area. I went from an area that had some great smaller shops (Hunt's Manchester and Melrose, Cameraland in Nashua, NH, Newtonville Camera) and have to say, its kind of depressing out here.
I went to a certain shop in Boulder....<snip>
That place in Boulder, (I'll call them "Joe's Camera") has gone downhill. I stopped going to their satellite location in Park Meadows because I got tired of being disappointed.
If you go up to 104th and I-25, just east of the interstate is a Wolf Camera store. Most Wolf/Ritz camera stores are no better than Best Buy, but at this store, ask for Hope or Joe. Both of those folks will be able to help you out. They may not have it in stock, but they can order (if you can wait for it). They are both helpful AND knowledgeable and won't steer you wrong.
We here in san diego are lucky to have a couple good stores one of which Nelsons has a young man by the name of BEN HORNE If you have a question , even a stupid question he is very happy to help. so if you don't go to the local shops you will never meet the great people who are so dedicated this sickness ER love of photography. ..just my 2 cents......
jefft wrote:
I seldom even look at buying locally. a few months ago I needed a 580Flash to replace one going in for warranty work and the price was $70.00 more than Amazon.
I offered the listed price plus pay the extra local tax but they refused. Said they can get the higher price so they prefer not to sell it. A click of the mouse and I had it by 10:00am the next day. It seems if Amazon, B&H etc are happy selling at a lower price a local store could do the same and increase from local to national business and make a whole lot more money. ...Show more →
Places like Amazon will often times sell at wholesale prices. In other words, what amazon charges for a flash like the 580 is what the small dealer cost is to buy the same flash from canon directly. It's not that they refused to do so because they didn't want to... it's that they would be taking a loss after credit card fees.
We have people come in all the time and ask if we can match B&H. For most things, no. There is no way to when they are charging wholesale prices. Some people seem to take the refusal as almost an insult, and think that there is a ton of money in camera gear. It couldn't be further from the truth. There is very little profit in cameras or lenses.
If you want to negotiate prices at a local camera shop, you need to understand that we do not all pay the same for the same product. If you pay with a credit card, the shop will have additional fees to pay (Amex is the worst). A lot of shops will work with you on the price if you pay cash, if you purchase multiple items, or if you are a frequent visitor.
Also, the service of a local shop extends beyond the purchase of the equipment. We can work with the reps to get certain repair situations taken care of. If you had bought the item online and sent it in for repair, you don't have anyone on your side.
Ben Horne wrote:
We can work with the reps to get certain repair situations taken care of. If you had bought the item online and sent it in for repair, you don't have anyone on your side.
To the extent that local resellers add value, I am generally appreciative, and would direct my business locally to suppliers that offer such value addition. The place that I can't understand is Ritz/Wolf camera. They charge obscene prices, and most San Diego locations are staffed by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
I've been to your store downtown, and I like it. I like the Calumet in Escondido even better, because those guys are all very talented photographers.
Now that I live in NYC, however, I have to say that B&H is a decent brick-and-mortar operation, but only to a point. The purchase process is needlessly (in my view) bureaucratic, and service/value addition occurs only in certain departments. (Lighting, for example). The Calumet, by contrast, is staffed by former photographers who are willing to talk to you and help you develop honest and economical solutions to complex problems. And I don't mean questions about lenses and cameras....
I really don't understand how Ritz stays in business. A friend of mine needed a xmas present and couldn't want to get it online as he needed to get on a plane. So we went to Ritz to pick up a 430EX. They charged about 50 dollars higher than MSRP. I was floored. He had no choice and purchased it, but I can safely say I will never purchase anything from that store. In CA, we have local stores like Sammy's etc. But why drive all the way down there when I can stay home and get it shipped to me =)
nle57 wrote:
I really don't understand how Ritz stays in business. A friend of mine needed a xmas present and couldn't want to get it online as he needed to get on a plane. So we went to Ritz to pick up a 430EX. They charged about 50 dollars higher than MSRP. I was floored. He had no choice and purchased it, but I can safely say I will never purchase anything from that store. In CA, we have local stores like Sammy's etc. But why drive all the way down there when I can stay home and get it shipped to me =)...Show more →
Well, for every well informed photographer like yourself, there are 10 uninformed photographers that Ritz reels in hook, line and sinker.
nle57 wrote:
I really don't understand how Ritz stays in business. A friend of mine needed a xmas present and couldn't want to get it online as he needed to get on a plane. So we went to Ritz to pick up a 430EX. They charged about 50 dollars higher than MSRP. I was floored. He had no choice and purchased it, but I can safely say I will never purchase anything from that store. In CA, we have local stores like Sammy's etc. But why drive all the way down there when I can stay home and get it shipped to me =)...Show more →
I've purchased camera bodies from Ritz but I've also been shopping at B&H regularly for the last 15+ years when I lived in New Haven.
Why would anyone buy from Ritz? Here are 3 reasons: They have it and B&h doesn't. Ritz charges full retail (not marked up more in my case) and so does everyone else. When you figure in taxes, and you don't pay them at Ritz, sometimes it isn't that bad.
I've also been floored by some of their prices and simply said "good bye" and hung up the phone after they refused to even consider reality as an option...
Interesting discussion.
My observations in SoCal (Orange County) are of varied local shops.
-The B&M stores that are also strong on the internet front, with modern inventory and checkout systems like Calumet and Samy's.
-Mom and pop shops still sprinkled around.
Out of the single small stores, I can tell which ones are going to be run over.
I walked into one, and it was pitiful. It was like walking into a time warp. Everything seemed old, but new. Like it was stocked years ago, and never sold. I think there film processing kept them around, but I'm sure they have been feeling the hit on that too.
I was just at a local camera shop in Seattle and was shocked by the price difference compared to B&H or Canoga for a couple of items. I was looking at two macro lenses, the 100mm and 180mm L. The price for the 100mm was about $100 more than B&H and I have no problem with that. If I decide to get this lens I will probably buy it from the local store.
But the 180mm L was listed at more than $500 higher than B&H! With the additional $500 and a local sales tax of 8.9% it would be very hard to justify buying it locally.
Used to go to a local store (1 hour away). Even paid a little more there and didn't mind as they seemed knowledgeable. Then one night I was on my way there to pick up a polarizer filter for a 300 f2.8 which I had purchased from there a year before. Got caught in a traffic jam, called said I was in a jam and would be getting there about 10-15 minutes after closing and was told (by the owner), been here since 9am this morning, want to get out of here, if it was going to be a couple minutes it was one thing.
Was pretty pissed considering I knew B&H was a day shipping away and $20 less. I drove home without getting there it was a complete waste of time and gas. Ordered from B&H and will never go back.
If I am going to be treated like that by a vendor then I do not care if they are on the end of web site or in front me. No difference at that point and no reason to waste my time with them.
Helix Camera in Chicago has bh-like prices. Great service too. They are a big fish here though...
Small local places are dead.
I recently wanted to trade some gear in for cash (poor value, but it was time sensitive) to a local shop in Chicago NW burbs (Shutan Camera in Vernon Hills). The place bounced a $600 check to me.
Yes....I came in, they took their time to inspect all of my gear..... they wrote me a check for my gear. I drove to the bank and was told that the camera store did not have sufficient funds.
What?! Most of inventory that these stores should have cost more than that!
Most local places do not hold inventory!!! They are holding on by not carrying inventory and using your money to pay for gear that you buy.
.... it is super frustrating and takes the WHOLE point of a local store away.
If I have to order I can do it cheaper online....I will pay more for NOW, but not for later.
jbregar wrote:
I happen to be in a decent-sized market (Denver Metro Area) that is horribly lacking in the local photo shop area. There are plenty of Wolf Cameras around here (a division of Ritz) and a couple of local shops, but my experience has been exactly the same as mentioned by the original poster. They're understocked, overpriced, and have pretty lacking service. We've seen two shops go out of biz while I've lived here, both because there's just not a sustainable market in gouging an informed customer base.
I understand that things sometimes need to cost more locally, but not 50-100% more. The $80 roll of seamless that's $40 at B&H is a good example. You're telling me B&H gets it for 1/2 the price? I doubt it.
The idea that "you can just go elsewhere if you don't like it" is a great way to run yourself right out of business. Especially with an informed consumer base like most pro and semi-pro photographers. What happens is you end up selling only last minute stuff and stuff that's not worth shipping... like lens caps, rolls of seamless, and the occasional D40 to Aunt Sally... none of which carry the profit of a D3 or D300. It's a recipe for marginalization... and it's pretty much complete in Denver. But hey, you can see just about any bag you'd ever want in Denver... but they're marked up 75-100% over the going rate at B&H or Adorama....Show more →
I remember back in the late 80's when Denver had some decent camera shops. Lindahl, Wasatch, Waxman.
They are all gone due to their inability to change with the market.
I still try to buy local if possible.
Last summer I was looking for a Canon 70-200mm 2.8 L lens and called up to Mikes Camera. Their price was $300.00 more than the B&H online price and to top it off the sales rep I talked to said there was no room for price negotiation.
Now why would I Drive to Denver 2 hours and pay gas cost plus my time and then be charged an extra $300.00 for the lens and then get stung with another 7.5% sales tax. Not going to happen.
Thats the problem with a lot of local camera shops these days. They need to change their way of business.
I had the lens sent to me 2nd day air and saved $360.00 over the local shop.
Klaus Priebe wrote:
Thats the problem with a lot of local camera shops these days. They need to change their way of business.
It's also the fault of Nikon/Canon and some of the other companies because they do not sell to small shops at the same price as they do to the big stores out of NY. If the small shops were to change their way of business, and be competitive with the prices, they would end up losing money (essentially selling at or below cost, then paying credit card fees, etc). that would certainly change their way of business...
Certain companies have the right idea, which is strict enforcement of pricing, so that it is the same no matter where you go. Look at Gitzo, Leica, and Westcott are all pretty good about this. A lot of their gear sells at a local level because it's usually the same price as the NY shops. If Canon and Nikon would do the same, it would allow the small shops to compete.
Ben Horne wrote:
It's also the fault of Nikon/Canon and some of the other companies because they do not sell to small shops at the same price as they do to the big stores out of NY.
It's their fault ?!?!? Companies like Nikon & Canon sell to every authorized retailer. If retailer "A" buys 3 bodies and 6 lenses while retailer "B" buys 300 bodies and 600 lenses, Nikon and Canon and just about every other wholesaler/supplier in the industry will offer different terms to one than to the other.
I've posted plenty of times that I will shop in one of the three nearby hardware stores before heading over to the big-box behemoth every single time, but saying it's Canon or Nikon's fault simply mis-states the marketplace IMO.
If our government would make all mailorder or internet folks charge sales tax to end customers when products were sold..based on mailing address..it would come long way to putting all of us on same plaing field. most internet and mailorder business is done to avoid paying local sales tax. in most cases it amounts to 8% or more. all states are missing out on revenue from internet sales. if you paid sales taxes on mdse. plus high shipping and handling fees, you'd find local prices very competitive. pay your money..take your choice. some of you folks never learn!
Yes, we all want the gub'ment to protect us. But the fact is that the internet gives every Tom, Dick, and Harry's the ability to be an Internet store at the drop of a hat. "Internet stores" have no advantage any store can't have.
We have one local store that's dying the typical local store death. We have another local store that has reduced its sales floor, increased it's warehouse space, and started selling on the Internet...and is doing gangbuster business. It still sells local retail and has even limited itself to professional sales from the showroom.
A good number of the well-known Internet stores are also brick-and-mortar stores. There's no good reason any brick-and-mortar store can't open an Internet storefront, even on eBay if nowhere else.
henryp wrote:
It's their fault ?!?!? Companies like Nikon & Canon sell to every authorized retailer. If retailer "A" buys 3 bodies and 6 lenses while retailer "B" buys 300 bodies and 600 lenses, Nikon and Canon and just about every other wholesaler/supplier in the industry will offer different terms to one than to the other.
I've posted plenty of times that I will shop in one of the three nearby hardware stores before heading over to the big-box behemoth every single time, but saying it's Canon or Nikon's fault simply mis-states the marketplace IMO.
Yes, it is their fault for doing that. It's a very poor way of doing business by creating a market where there are a select few who will prosper, and everyone else will go away. In the long run, you will see very few local shops, and people will have to purchases these products sight unseen. As soon as legislation is passed to require collection of taxes for internet purchases, we may see a paradigm shift.
Don't get me wrong, I buy a lot of stuff from you guys even though I work at a small shop, and I've always been happy with B&H, but Canon/Nikon's practices are the main reasons why the small shops are going away. In the long run, that is not good for these companies since the locations to buy their merchandise are getting fewer and fewer.
Ben, you are confusing the introduction of internet shopping with selective marketing practices. Canon/Nikon didn't choose B&H or Adorama, as example, to become the largest resellers. Those companies recognized the value of an early entry into web sales and capitalized on it. Now they are the giants, and their volume gains them further discounts. If I want to open a car dealership tomorrow, and can only afford to put one car on the sales floor, should I get the same price from the maker as someone who sells 3000 cars a month (think Galpin Ford in Van Nuys). Not gonna happen, no matter the industry.
Quantity breaks are a standard practice across many industries. I'm not surprised Canon & Nikon have them & would expect someone buying 1000 copies of a body would get a better price than someone buying 10. I tend to suspect the advent of internet shopping just accelerated & widened the gap. Didn't B&H and Adorama do a lot of mail-order sales before the net became a huge distribution channel? I'll bet they were getting volume discounts even back then. To me the only thing that's changed is it's easier & more widely known where to get the discounted product than in the past and consumers are largely more comfortable with the practice.
hdfxr3 wrote:
If our government would make all mailorder or internet folks charge sales tax to end customers when products were sold..based on mailing address..it would come long way to putting all of us on same plaing field. most internet and mailorder business is done to avoid paying local sales tax.
Well, your local government almost certainly does require you to pay this sales tax in the form of a "use tax". I wish I could say that personal integrity carried the same weight as government enforcement and that people here did pay it, but that's certainly not been my experience.
he is very happy to help. so if you don't go to the local shops you will never meet the great people who are so dedicated this sickness ER love of photography. ..just my 2 cents......