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Archive 2007 · The death of the local camera store

  
 
chez
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p.6 #1 · The death of the local camera store


D Smith wrote:
I worked in Photo retail for 15+ years and eventually managed 2 family-owned stores. Small stores simply cannot move the goods to qualify for discount pricing. B&H and the like used to never have the overhead costs, it was a warehouse, and they never had to adhere to MAP pricing in order to pay for advertising costs so they could break MAP with their discounts and not suffer. I wouldn't call the local stores overpriced (MAP pricing is the Minimum Advertised Price set by the vendor, ie Canon/Nikon Etc, and is rarely higher in the locally owned stores), but
...Show more

Yeh, when the shoe is on the other foot, we hear a totally different story on this board.



Jan 22, 2008 at 09:58 PM
Liak Yuan Howe
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p.6 #2 · The death of the local camera store


To be honest, I'd consider places like Adorama, KEH and B&H to be local (to the US) stores. Most of the world don't order from those sites due to shipping charges, so they certainly aren't international.

SoloHiker wrote:
I personally find it difficult to pay an extra $1000+ for something locally that I can get online, and be confident that it is in an unopened box (I have some experience otherwise with a couple local shops). These days, especially in the digital arena, it's even more important for local shops to change their focus to support more services (custom developing, custom printing, education, teaching in-field classes, sponsorships, etc) than just selling film, bodies, lenses, and carrying cases. They need to add value to their services, or expect to be swept away with the market changes.


Don't people send back lenses to B&H and such when they get bad copies for exchanges?



Jan 23, 2008 at 04:35 AM
Nathan Whitchu
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p.6 #3 · The death of the local camera store


chez wrote:
Yeh, when the shoe is on the other foot, we hear a totally different story on this board.


If we were complaining about the cost of a Canon L lens and then went to buy a Quantaray lens instead this would be a good analogy. If you were looking at a car, and found the same car with the same features, warranty, mileage, same EVERYTHING down the block for $1500 less, but still bought it at the first lot people would call you an idiot. We're talking about informed professionals who don't need much help from the sales person, who do all their own research on the internet, who are buying the same product for considerably less. When I bought my 70-200/2.8is I got it from the camera store i used to work at, I bought it for HIS cost (I know, because I looked the price up before leaving).. B&H had it for $50 LESS then he could even buy it for. All my old boss made was Co-Op credit and the 2-3% discount he got for paying his bill early, and he STILL couldn't even match B&H's pricing.

He cut me the best deal he possibly could, and I bought it from him out of loyalty. I'm not blaming mom and pop stores like some people seem to be doing. I'm sympathetic to them, I buy what I can there. But when we're literally talking about saving hundreds of dollars off of a purchase, money that can be going to paying my mortgage and feeding my kids, I just can't justify spending extra cash I don't have to. This isn't a hobby, this is how I make a living... If I can lower my expenses without sacrificing quality, I will. It makes no sense to run a business otherwise. We all chose our internet providers, our phone company, our electricity and our landlords the same way.... Equipment is just another expense.



Jan 23, 2008 at 10:22 AM
cad3
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p.6 #4 · The death of the local camera store


I'm near (well 20 minutes from) a great store on the west coast. They have the best service, huge stock, etc. etc. etc. The -only- down side is that those 20 minutes I drive are to one of the most expensive areas to live in, within several hundred miles+.

So their prices are high. I understand B&M but it's a double whammy. Not only are they 50% MORE than B&H (seriously!, on some items it's that much!); I get hit with a nasty state tax (and their county is one of the highest ones around).

I told myself, I'd support the store, eat the sales tax, as long as they were not over 20% above B&H's price. They were not, and I saved myself 38% off their price. Sorry, there is just no way I'm paying over 60% more (after figuring in both shipping and sales tax).

Actually it reminded me of being in NYC a few weeks ago. I saw a "closing liquadation sale" on 5th Ave or Park (it was somewhere around there). I went inside and saw a few lens boxes and read the labels.
MRSP: $589
Our Price: $1123

MRSP: $899
Our Price: $1699

I laughed and walked out.



Jan 23, 2008 at 07:41 PM
Ben Horne
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p.6 #5 · The death of the local camera store


cineski wrote:
I live in LA. Is it wrong that B&H is my mail order camera store and I DON'T HAVE TO PAY SALES TAX! Hahahahah! Sorry, couldn't resist.


Well, it's good that you didn't use your real name. I can see how someone from the California Board of Equalization could just check the forums and come up with a nice and tasty audit list.



Jan 24, 2008 at 07:05 PM
henryp
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p.6 #6 · The death of the local camera store


D Smith wrote:
B&H and the like used to never have the overhead costs, it was a warehouse, and they never had to adhere to MAP pricing in order to pay for advertising costs so they could break MAP with their discounts and not suffer.


You are mistaken on two counts. B&H was a bricks-n-mortar store BEFORE we went into mail order and have had the overhead of a retail store (in Manhattan, some of the most expensive commercial real estate in the country) since our inception.

Throughout, we have ALWAYS honored MAP agreements with our suppliers and have never knowingly broken one. Our integrity is more valuable than a buck.

The benefits of a local store are staff knowledge and customer service, if they are trained well and compensated fairly, they tend to stick around. Call B&H and try and get technical and accurate information from them, they usually just want my credit card number and are gruff.

Piffle. There are just as many local stores staffed by high school kids from the yearbook photo staff who couldn't get the cool jobs hawking overpriced clothes at A&F. B&H takes justifiable pride in the time, resources, man-hours and expense we invest in employee training and run multiple product training classes every Mon through Thur, except during seasonal rush periods. Our sales associates are often working pros augmenting their incomes and there is no retailer in our industry anywhere who values employee training more than we.

Call B&H and try and get technical and accurate information from them. You will get exactly that, plus someone's real-world experience to boot.
--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video



Jan 25, 2008 at 01:11 PM
chez
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p.6 #7 · The death of the local camera store


henryp wrote:
You are mistaken on two counts. B&H was a bricks-n-mortar store BEFORE we went into mail order and have had the overhead of a retail store (in Manhattan, some of the most expensive commercial real estate in the country) since our inception.

Throughout, we have ALWAYS honored MAP agreements with our suppliers and have never knowingly broken one. Our integrity is more valuable than a buck.

Piffle. There are just as many local stores staffed by high school kids from the yearbook photo staff who couldn't get the cool jobs hawking overpriced clothes at A&F. B&H takes justifiable pride in the
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Henry as I recall B&H stirred up quite an issue with it's pricing changes during a Canon rebate period a few years ago. There was major damage control activated, but personally, I think you guys lost some of your integrity that day.



Jan 25, 2008 at 04:08 PM
EltonTeng
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p.6 #8 · The death of the local camera store


Throughout, we have ALWAYS honored MAP agreements with our suppliers and have never knowingly broken one. Our integrity is more valuable than a buck.

Henry, is your MAP same as everyone else's or lower? Or is that piece of information proprietary? The reason I'm asking the question is that some smaller store owners who also post lament that they can't buy the the prices you charge as Internet retail.



Jan 26, 2008 at 01:43 AM
FSJ_Guy
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p.6 #9 · The death of the local camera store


As a former employee of a retail store, I can say that MAP (Minimun Advertised Price) is the same across the board. Where large stores are able to save money is at the back end, through cryptic programs such as co-op advertising and discounts for immediate payment for shipments. That is how they are able to appear to charge less than what a smaller store can even BUY it @ cost from a manufacturer.

And remember, stores (any store) are not making a killing on a $2000 (or even a $4000) lens or camera body. You're extremely lucky if you've made a few hundred dollars of GROSS profit.





Jan 26, 2008 at 05:53 AM
henryp
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p.6 #10 · The death of the local camera store


Henry as I recall B&H stirred up quite an issue with it's pricing changes during a Canon rebate period a few years ago. There was major damage control activated, but personally, I think you guys lost some of your integrity that day.

Our integrity is unimpeachable. Unless we're talking about COMPLETELY different events, this was more recently than "a few years ago," and was a simple programmer's error in which the rebate amount was accidentally added to instead of subtracted from the pre-rebate price. The error was online for a little over 24 hours because we noted it mid-day on a Friday and the necessary site update had to wait until Saturday evening. We explained and apologized at the time and issued a full refund to anyone who'd been inadvertently overcharged. Yours is a straw man argument, that is all. The "issue" subsided just as soon as our explanation + apology was posted.

Henry, is your MAP same as everyone else's or lower? Or is that piece of information proprietary? The reason I'm asking the question is that some smaller store owners who also post lament that they can't buy the the prices you charge as Internet retail.

As far as I know any particular MAP value is the same for all retailers. What differs is the wholesale price the retailer pays and the retail price the retailer charges. MAP amounts only refer to an advertised price, not an actual selling price.

I attended a retailers' round table in New Jersey last year. Several smaller retailer told the group they LOVED MAP because it was the only way they could compete against one another and because they needed to be able to charge the MAP price to realize a reasonable profit. I have no doubt some smaller retailers cannot buy the prices we charge. We buy aggressively and widely and our suppliers acknowledge that with prices to us we pass on to you.

...through cryptic programs such as co-op advertising and discounts for immediate payment for shipments.

Respectfully, there's nothing "cryptic" about it. They're perfectly straight-forward programs usually described in detail in the MAP agreement a supplier asks a retailer to sign.
--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video



Jan 28, 2008 at 12:07 PM
FSJ_Guy
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p.6 #11 · The death of the local camera store


henryp wrote:
Respectfully, there's nothing "cryptic" about it. They're perfectly straight-forward programs usually described in detail in the MAP agreement a supplier asks a retailer to sign.
--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that co-op ads and other programs were shady back door agreements done on a handshake over a game of poker.

I do business with both my local camera stores and B&H. Why? Because sometimes I need it NOW and B&H gives me free shipping since I'm a NAPP member.

One of these days, I'm gonna get into NYC and see the store in person...




Jan 29, 2008 at 04:50 PM
csm
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p.6 #12 · The death of the local camera store


In a metro market here...we have two medium sized 'chain' stores. Niether is a inexpensive or even has as good customer service as B&H. One of the chains thinks everyone is a dummy and the other has reps that are so arrogant (and they know very little about photography or gear so it is even more irritating) that I cannot stand to walk in there. I only use them when forced to, and that has not been often.

I like the theory of the small local store, but in our area, the reality just does not work for my money...sorry.

PS Would like to add that we did have one photo shop that I did use and paid higher prices because the owner was always there, sharp as a tack, and did not have a holier-than-tho-attitude...just a regular guy and great photographer in his own right. He folded some years ago because he could not compete with the prices of the other local stores. He never mentioned the online retailers as a problem...for what it is worth. No expert here on the realities of local retailing.



Jan 30, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Peter Figen
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p.6 #13 · The death of the local camera store


"I live in LA. Is it wrong that B&H is my mail order camera store and I DON'T HAVE TO PAY SALES TAX! Hahahahah! Sorry, couldn't resist. "

As Mickey Bill so aptlly points out, we have to pay use tax on out of state purchases. The Ca BOE eventually gets around to auditing everyone who has a resale permit, and believe me, when you get audited, they do check for out of state sales and will charge you back tax, interest and penalty. It's much easier to buy in state and pay the tax up front than to remember to declare it later. Even though there is no real mechanism for the state to collect from ordinary citizens, I have heard of large offenders being targeted. Most states that charge sales tax have the same rules regarding out of state sales, but not all states charge the same percentage for use vs. sales tax.




Jan 30, 2008 at 02:46 AM
D Smith
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p.6 #14 · The death of the local camera store


Wow, I'm not taking a personal jab at B&H. I have been a customer of theirs in the past and will probably continue to be. But I know what to expect from them as well. If I were shopping for my first digital camera or knew someone who was, I sure wouldn't pick a mail order business. In my experience, you better know what you want before you call. I'm not calling to chit-chat, but I don't want to feel as though I can't ask technical questions before I make a large purchase either because I am inconveniencing a salesman. Believe me, if the mail order salesmen were doing their job on the phone/email end, I wouldn't be paying my employees every other day to educate those customers when they come into my store not knowing a damn thing about what they got themselves into by buying online. That's where local business can shine, how they take care of the customer after the sale.


Jan 30, 2008 at 11:40 AM
ericevans
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p.6 #15 · The death of the local camera store


Peter Figen wrote:
"I live in LA. Is it wrong that B&H is my mail order camera store and I DON'T HAVE TO PAY SALES TAX! Hahahahah! Sorry, couldn't resist. "

As Mickey Bill so aptlly points out, we have to pay use tax on out of state purchases. The Ca BOE eventually gets around to auditing everyone who has a resale permit, and believe me, when you get audited, they do check for out of state sales and will charge you back tax, interest and penalty. It's much easier to buy in state and pay the tax up front than to remember
...Show more

I got bent over last year on use tax and it was not fun at all . They also deceive you during the audit into paying more than you should so talk to a CPA in your state as to what they can legally charge you . Most states do not require it on purchases from individuals in the state or online but if it is a shop they will nail you . My state even sent notices to my dealers asking for my sales records but they were told to get screwed . I now pay the sales tax in the state where I am making the purchase as after my audit I don't feel like giving them any more .



Jan 31, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Focus Locus
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p.6 #16 · The death of the local camera store


B&H does GREAT business. They pay attention to the details.

Their store in NYC is one of the most sophisticated retail stores of any type that I've ever seen. It was just thoroughly remodeled within the last year. Built inside of the display counters are networks of very cool conveyer belt systems that deliver goods directly to the retail sales person.

With the evolutionary improvements to the store, the website, and the mail order warehouse, it is very evident that B&H is reinvesting their profits from the digital revolution back into their operations... which makes our lives easier.

I've seen B&H sourcebooks in every local retail camera store that has gone out of business, as well as the few that remain in business. No one else had a catalog as comprehensive across all product lines as B&H. And no one made or forced B&H to come up with this industry reference. They just did it, presumably to serve customers, which in turn made them more successful.

B&H deserves the success they have acheived.

That being said, competition is good for everyone, and as good as B&H is, there is always room to grow in the realm of improvement, and competition fosters that quicker than any other growth remedy.

There are still a few professionally oriented retail/distributors scattered throughout the country to choose from. Two major independents in particular are very supportive of professional photojournalists and sports photographers...

Robert's Imaging (aka Robert's Distributing) in Indiananapolis

Samy's Camera in Los Angeles

These stores are local to some... not so local for others, but still have a local feel by virtue of the fact that their volumes are not as large and the people you talk to tend to be the same year over year. Despite the lower volume, their pricing can be surprisingly competitive, even beating B&H on select items... like lenses for example.

When the Canon Mark IIn came out, it initially sold for between $4,200 to $4,500. The dealer cost on the camera was $3,200. (Source: a very local camera store employee inadvertently read the wrong data colunm to me while taking my order. The price seemed unbelievably low for a waiting list camera, so I questioned him. He checked again, and said OOPS. He wasn't too bright. Probably one of those high school kids HenryP was referring to. And so another local store bites the dust?)

Anyway, essentially most retailers grossed a grand for every fervent sale. The price eventually settled to $3,999 at B&H and held for along time. $800 per sale, but with B&H's buying power, they presumably paid less than $3,200. Of interest however, is at the end of the Mark IIn's life, near the dawn of the Mark III, B&H was selling the Mark IIn for around $3,400, more or less.

Therefore, it wasn't until the time when the Mark IIn's were being discontinued that the margin between dealer cost and retail sale approached the $200 range projected by another poster. At all other times, it appeared to be 4 to 5 times higher. ($800 - $1,000 gross per body, on the higher end when newly introduced.)





Feb 01, 2008 at 01:01 AM
henryp
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p.6 #17 · The death of the local camera store


Focus Locus wrote:
Their store in NYC is one of the most sophisticated retail stores of any type that I've ever seen. It was just thoroughly remodeled within the last year. Built inside of the display counters are networks of very cool conveyer belt systems that deliver goods directly to the retail sales person.


Thank you. In the interest of accuracy I should report that the store expansion project is not complete. A big chunk of the new 2nd floor space is open, but more than half of the 1st floor is still under construction.

SNIP

B&H deserves the success they have acheived.

Thank you. This is very kind and quite gratifying.

That being said, competition is good for everyone, and as good as B&H is, there is always room to grow in the realm of improvement, and competition fosters that quicker than any other growth remedy.

I agree 100000%. I'm a Darwinian when it comes to retail. Competition makes every player stronger. Hungry lions make speedy gazelles 'cause a slow gazelle = lunch.
If a store like B&H doesn't face stiff competition from above-board legit competitors every day we'd run the risk of slowing down, a risk I am unwilling to contemplate.


--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video



Feb 01, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Peter Figen
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p.6 #18 · The death of the local camera store


"I got bent over last year on use tax and it was not fun at all . They also deceive you during the audit into paying more than you should so talk to a CPA in your state as to what they can legally charge you."

You don't say what state you are in, but you are definitely right about involving your CPA. My audit took place at my CPA's office and while I completely inundated them in paperwork, I was never there. A lot depends on the specific auditor you get, but I don't think we were ever deceived. Strangely enough, we did have to remind the auditor about some of the finer points regarding selling a photograph vs. licensing the usage of an image and how that related to sales tax in California. Because auditors audit all kinds of businesses, it's completely likely that they don't actually know all the rules that pertain to your business, so part of being prepared is to know as much about their job as they do - to help steer them in the right direction when they need it.

"Most states do not require it on purchases from individuals in the state or online but if it is a shop they will nail you."

I think that most states actually do require that individuals pay use tax on out of state purchases, they just don't actively enforce it unless it's an especially abusive offense.

"My state even sent notices to my dealers asking for my sales records but they were told to get screwed."

I think all taxing agencies have been doing this for years. That's how they operate. I don't think telling them to get screwed is going to phase them. It may actually hurt you in the long run.

"I now pay the sales tax in the state where I am making the purchase as after my audit I don't feel like giving them any more."

Typically you have to pay sales tax on items purchased in state and not for resale. Use tax applies to items purchased out of state but mailed or shipped to you in state. You would only pay sales tax in another state if you were actually in that state and wouldn't owe it in your own state because the item was delivered to you in a different state. If you keep good records and are completely up front, you can get through an audit with no change in tax owed. It will, however, cost you a fair amount of time to gather all the information they request. Just another joy of being in business...






Feb 04, 2008 at 01:57 PM
Rocketball
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p.6 #19 · The death of the local camera store


Another reason to do business with your local store, or at least it is for me.

I needed to purcahse a Pixel Racing Harness for my Think Tank Steriod Speed Belt system, and I was in a bit of a rush. I could have purchased it on line and paid the extra money for express delivery, but I decided to give my local Penn Camera store another call. They carry a large variety of Think Tank gear, but did not have one in stock. They said they could order me one and have it in the store by the next day. I'm thinking, sure you will, but I agreed to have them order me one. Before 12 noon the next day, the store called me to say the my order was in. I picked it up that afternoon. So OK, I didn't have to pay ANY shipping, and still got what I needed the next day. You can't beat that........



Feb 04, 2008 at 03:41 PM
blackfeather
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p.6 #20 · The death of the local camera store


...I give my local dealer all the business I can...and that's around 95% of it. I want a face I can talk to and someone who knows the photography business too....and I'm not talking about Ritz and Wolf. My dealer has been a godsend as opposed to an on-line sale. Yes I have ordered from some "worthy" sources KEH, B&H, Midwest Photo etc...but my local dealer needs to stay in business...some of these "on-line" businesses operate out of a garage or similar.


Feb 04, 2008 at 04:31 PM
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