['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

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Paul B
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p.53 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Colin Key wrote:
Glen_C wrote:
Hi, i totally can NOT speak for the III

Mar 26, 2008 at 07:01 PM

simonella_viru
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p.53 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

theoretically, the only two conditions that one-shot AF should work are:
1. subject is relatively still, within the DOF
2. subject is spherically moving around me, within the DOF, at a relatively constant (ego-centric) distance to me

otherwise ai-servo should be used if something is moving outside of the DOF. because from my perspective, it is moving toward/away from me. even if it's moving left, right, up or down.

Edited on Mar 26, 2008 at 08:54 PM

Mar 26, 2008 at 08:53 PM

Colin Key
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p.53 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Paul B wrote:
Colin Key wrote:
Glen_C wrote:
Hi, i totally can NOT speak for the III

but if i purchased one and AI-SERVO (ie. continual focus) did not seriously outperform "One shot mode" routinely on moving objects i'd probably return the camera very shortly.

here is a decent article by Chuck W.
http://photonotes.org/other/ai-servo.html

Glen, that article was first published in June 1992 - things have moved on a bit since then!! I could not access the other link.

I will stand my ground and maintain that AI Servo only provides any useful purpose when the distance between camera and subject is changing (i.e. the subject is moving towards or away from you), and to state that it is useful "on all moving subjects" is incorrect. If the distance between subject and camera sensor is constant (e.g. a jet plane flying across/perpendicular to your direction of shooting) then AI Servo serves no useful purpose and can in fact deteriorate the image quality and focus accuracy by making the camera attempt to do something it does not need to do, and results in "hunting" AF.

Colin

By definition, isn't a plane flying "perpendicular" (I assume you mean something like from your right to your left) to the photographer changing the distance between the camera and plane? As it approaches from the right, it's relatively farther away, gets closest at some point, then moves farther away as it flies off to the left. I've experienced this when trying to shoot swimming ducks with a 400/5.6 where the DOF is very narrow. If I'm relatively close and not using Servo, the duck's movement will take it slighly out of focus.

Yes (and no); if you were shooting something like the Red Arrows display team at a distance of, say, 300-500 metres, you would not (or I would not!!) keep the button pressed for more than a few seconds. Within that time the change in range between the subject (a group of small jet planes) and yourself will be relatively small and with even a moderate DOF (i.e. not shooting at maximum aperture) the focus distance would be catered for.

I take the point that "cross flying" subjects are not attached to a piece of string of constant length, but my experience is that such subjects (which are not moving significantly further towards or away from you) can be captured better in One Shot than AI Servo mode.

There seems to me to be a mental block amongst many people that "anything moving" requires AI Servo - this is just not the case.

Take, for example a wind kite on a fixed line moving quickly and erratically in a strong wind - would you use One Shot or AI Servo to photograph it?

Colin

Mar 26, 2008 at 09:39 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.53 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Well, I confess I have that mental block as well. Regretfully, it works in the field…..

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 27, 2008 at 10:32 AM

Colin Key
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p.53 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Yakim Peled wrote:
Well, I confess I have that mental block as well. Regretfully, it works in the field…..

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

But, for subjects which are not moving significantly towards or away from you, how do you know that employing AI Servo is giving better results over One Shot mode?

Colin

Mar 27, 2008 at 01:04 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.53 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I don't as I never tried it.

My motto is very simple: Moving objects = AI servo. Static objects = One shot. It works so well that I never looked at a picture and said: "It's not my fault that the picture turned out bad, it's the camera's fault".

Needles to say, I don't have a 1D Mk III…..

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 27, 2008 at 01:55 PM

Colin Key
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p.53 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

1D Mk III Manual, page 83:

"AI Servo AF for Moving Subjects"

"This AF mode is for moving subjects when the focusing distance keeps changing. While you hold down the shutter button halfway, the subject will be focused continuously."

If you are using AI Servo in any other circumstances you are not only wasting your time but you are degrading your images. Full stop (pun intended).

Colin

Mar 27, 2008 at 08:58 PM

Alistair Watson
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p.53 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Colin Key wrote:
1D Mk III Manual, page 83:

"AI Servo AF for Moving Subjects"

"This AF mode is for moving subjects when the focusing distance keeps changing. While you hold down the shutter button halfway, the subject will be focused continuously."

If you are using AI Servo in any other circumstances you are not only wasting your time but you are degrading your images. Full stop (pun intended).

Colin

Your 1st statement is quite true. AI Servo is designed for where the distance from camera to subject is continually changing. Obvious.

I disagree with the statement that AI-Servo in other circumstances is degrading your images. That is simply taking the manual too literally. I have done multiple studio shoots with a static model in AI-Servo mode and the results have been no different had I had used One Shot AF mode. Indeed, I printed some of those shots today at A1 and they are perfectly in focus. Sure, your statement applies to xD and X0D bodies where AI-Servo mode (in my experience) has difficulty in maintaining focus on a static object but with a 1D series, in my experience, no problem.

Mar 27, 2008 at 09:19 PM

Randy Wright
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p.53 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Though from reading any of the Canon manuals I have-(page 83 of 1d Mark III manual, page 66 of 1ds Mark II manual, page 77 of 40d manual, page 65 of 20d manual), I ALWAYS thought that when I am at the beach taking surfpix I should only use ONE SHOT Auto Focus for Still shots, like non-moving seaweed washed up on the beach, as per the same/previous pages in the above said manuals, while AI Servo was the best suited for moving action, such as surfers and BIF, etc...

I gotta tell you though, after getting my early model 1d Mark III-( bought June 2007 # 5253**) fixed again by Canon Irvine last week-(S/M fixed Dec. 2007, with 2 dots in battery compartment and 2 trips to Irvine in the last 3 weeks-the last to calibrate and mate my lens+tc's)-I am getting the MOST in-focus sequences of guys and gals surfing that I EVER had with my Mark III+600mm +/- my 1.4/2.0 tc. , ESPECIALLY AFTER I change my TRACKING preferences from CF 3-0 to CF3-1, from CF 4-1 to 0, and CF 8-1/2 to 0.

Sequence after sequence, I am getting the best in-focus shots I've ever gotten with the Mark III while shooting surfpix here in Los Angeles...

Maybe some day I'll try shooting surfpix in One Shot focus mode,
if the surf sucks!

Late, Randy Wright
LAsurfpix.com

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:01 AM

Pixel Perfect
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p.53 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Colin Key wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
Well, I confess I have that mental block as well. Regretfully, it works in the field…..

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

But, for subjects which are not moving significantly towards or away from you, how do you know that employing AI Servo is giving better results over One Shot mode?

Colin

But at least with the 1D II say, assigning the AF to the * button and using AI servo, you can keep the * pressed down to track or if the motion stops release it and lock focus (ie one shot) and get the best of both worlds. So it's very easy to compare both approaches in a split second. I assume youy can do a similar thing with the 1D III?

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:16 AM

jianghai_ho
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p.53 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I don't want to name names, but IMHO There's a huge misconception as to what One-Shot and what AI Servo: actually does, and when they can or should be used. I've been involved in similar questions previously and it seems like if you believe the focus mode "nazis" one should use AI servo ONLY when things or people are moving towards and away from you.

The main benefit of AI servo for me is that focus is not locked - i.e. IF the subject (*or indeed the photographer) *moves* the camera can adjust to that movement. I ONLY use One Shot when the camera is on a tripod and the subject is still - when AI Servo could go into a feedback loop (like IS on a tripod). Remember that when you handhold even if the subject is still you can cause "movement" - because you are moving.

One Shot simply calculates the focus *it* thinks is best and goes to it, then stops. Doesn't make one shot more accurate than servo, i.e. whether it is or is not in focus it will stop wherever it feels it's got focus. It has it's place, for sure, but most of the time (for me), the chance that there will be some sort of movement (photographer, subject, etc) vastly outweigh the actual (or perceived) increase in accuracy of One Shot.

Someone please correct me if my conclusions are wildly inaccurate, but sometimes the FUD that gets spread around the internet is a little ridiculous (again IMHO). As far as I'm concerned actual field experience means a ton more than being able to quote from a users manual, and understanding of the actual mechanics (through theory and experience) is more important than (again) what's in the manual – How many here with older "fixed" 1D Mark IIIs actually believe what canon is now saying about the fix?

Edited on Mar 28, 2008 at 12:25 AM

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:24 AM

Photon
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p.53 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Randy Wright wrote:

I gotta tell you though, after getting my early model 1d Mark III-( bought June 2007 # 5253**) fixed again by Canon Irvine last week-(S/M fixed Dec. 2007, with 2 dots in battery compartment and 2 trips to Irvine in the last 3 weeks-the last to calibrate and mate my lens+tc's)-I am getting the MOST in-focus sequences of guys and gals surfing that I EVER had with my Mark III+600mm +/- my 1.4/2.0 tc. , ESPECIALLY AFTER I change my TRACKING preferences from CF 3-0 to CF3-1, from CF 4-1 to 0, and CF 8-1/2 to 0.

Sequence after sequence, I am getting the best in-focus shots I've ever gotten with the Mark III while shooting surfpix here in Los Angeles...

Late, Randy Wright
LAsurfpix.com

Randy, I assume you're talking about all the CFn III settings? Setting #3 to 1 from 0, #4 from 1 to 0, #8 from 1 or 2 to 0?

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:25 AM

Photon
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p.53 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Pixel Perfect wrote:

But at least with the 1D II say, assigning the AF to the * button and using AI servo, you can keep the * pressed down to track or if the motion stops release it and lock focus (ie one shot) and get the best of both worlds. So it's very easy to compare both approaches in a split second. I assume youy can do a similar thing with the 1D III?
Yes you can (with the AF start button doing what the * does on the II), and that's how I work. The only thing you can't do with the III is assign a different AF point to another back button and have that work exactly the same way as the first button except use a different point. You have to tap the "multi-controller" (joystick) to change point and THEN use the AF start button to focus/track/stop-focus. With the II, the * and the WB/+_ buttons can each be assigned an AF point and then do all the work with one press (release, press again, whatever's needed).

Edited on Mar 28, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Photon
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p.53 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Alistair Watson wrote:
...Sure, your statement applies to xD and X0D bodies where AI-Servo mode (in my experience) has difficulty in maintaining focus on a static object but with a 1D series, in my experience, no problem.

Alistair, for whatever reason, my 1D3 does jump around a bit in AI-servo with a wide aperture lens and moderate magnification (i.e., fairly close subject distance), even on a tripod. I've still found it useful shooting static subjects hand-held at wide apertures, because the servo compensates for my rocking and seems to give results a bit more accurate than one-shot (especially if I take 2 shots

).

Because you are one of the busy and successful action shooters, I'd be curious to know your choices for custom functions related to AF/Drive. Any differences with the IIN that you also use?

As an example of shooting a relatively static subject using AI-servo, here's a shot with the 85/1.2, either wide open or a fraction of a stop down:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Mar 28, 2008 at 12:47 AM

Hrow
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p.53 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Many near macro shooters use Servo to compensate for photographer movement when shooting hand held. In fact, when shooting in close and using AF, choosing One Shot is a pretty good way to guarantee that you will miss focus.

Mar 28, 2008 at 01:28 AM

DavidP
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p.53 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

My 1D-series cameras pretty much LIVE in AI-Servo mode . . . and with focus on the AF button (or * button in the older versions). I can't imagine shooting any other way.

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:03 AM

Randy Wright
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p.53 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Photon wrote:
Randy Wright wrote:

I gotta tell you though, after getting my early model 1d Mark III-( bought June 2007 # 5253**) fixed again by Canon Irvine last week-(S/M fixed Dec. 2007, with 2 dots in battery compartment and 2 trips to Irvine in the last 3 weeks-the last to calibrate and mate my lens+tc's)-I am getting the MOST in-focus sequences of guys and gals surfing that I EVER had with my Mark III+600mm +/- my 1.4/2.0 tc. , ESPECIALLY AFTER I change my TRACKING preferences from CF 3-0 to CF3-1, from CF 4-1 to 0, and CF 8-1/2 to 0.

Sequence after sequence, I am getting the best in-focus shots I've ever gotten with the Mark III while shooting surfpix here in Los Angeles...

Late, Randy Wright
LAsurfpix.com

Randy, I assume you're talking about all the CFn III settings? Setting #3 to 1 from 0, #4 from 1 to 0, #8 from 1 or 2 to 0?

______________________________________________________________

Hi Photon,
That's correct, sorry I was not more specific!

I've regularly read FM, DPreview, Potn, Wally's 1d series forum, etc, just trying to learn tips get my early model 1d mark III to work as I think it should have. Hence I immediately got in line for the S/M fix, and was/am still waiting patiently for the supposed up-coming-(as RG reported) root fix...
But after reading the March 5th Canon anouncement stating the the 1d Mark III issue is pretty much fixed-(in street person terms) and that the camera was all it was meant to be, I figured it was time to take my copy down to Irvine, since I too had shots as Jeff, Hrow, Markuson, etc. had-(where the feet of a surfer were in focus-but their head was soft, the left side of a shot was sharp-right side soft+vice-verse, sequences where the first was totally in focus, BUT for some reason the next few would be OOF, even though I was using center focus, sometime with AF expansion/sometimes not and ZoomBrowser would show that focus was spot on)...

Anyways, to make a long story short, after 2 trips to Irvine in the last few weeks, 250 miles and 5 hours later, I picked up my camera/600 lens on Good Friday the 21, shot surfpix on Sat./Sun., was STILL unhappy with the performance while using the 600 +/- 1.4 tc when shooting sequences, decided to turn OFF all tracking CF's after viewing the images on ZB and only have the camera shoot whatever Focus Point I decided to use for the next session with the 600...

CF III-2 Kept at Med Fast -(Slow/Med Slow does not cut it for surfpix, I've found)
CF III-3 CHANGED from 0-(AF priority/Tracking priority) to 1-(AF priority/Drive speed priority)
CF III-4 CHANGED from 1-(Continuous AF track priority) to 0-(Main focus point priority)
CF III-5 Kept at 0-(Focus search ON)
CF III-8 CHANGED from 1or2-(AF expansion with selected pt) to 0-(Disable)

I also use rear focus, after CF IV-2 is enabled...

Viola! STOKED!!!
Shot about 425 surf/beachpix on a gorgeous sunny Monday, and practically every shot was sharp. In fact, I think outta that batch, I probably did not post only about 4-5 action shots to my gallery.
That was the BEST sesh I had ever had with the Mark III, so STOKED!!!
I guess my Mark III still has some kinda TRACKING ISSUE,
so I find that if I have the camera FOCUS at whatever point I use from the Inner 9, I can track better than it can(?)...
Anyways, I am sooo STOKED to get consistant sequences now after 3 trips back to Canon...

BUT I'll STILL try Colin's tip, who knows, maybe the 1d Mark III works best in One Shot mode for action photo's

Randy Wright
LAsurfpix.com

PS-I've read and tried using Canon's Optimizing settings PDF, WildlifeimagesbyLes, etc. to find out what works for me. Hope everyones Mark III is working OK...
PSS-Thanks to Jeff, Hrow, Alistar, simonella_viru, apdieb, momv630, etc. for sharing your Mark III stories,
I've learned alot and know the Mark III's problems are NOT MY FAULT!!!

Edited by Randy Wright on Mar 27, 2008 at 06:39 PM GMT

Edited on Mar 28, 2008 at 02:39 AM

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:33 AM

apdieb
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p.53 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

You mentioned CFIII-0 change to 1... That is the USM Lens Electronic MF correct? Gotta admit, not sure how that would help with AI Servo...but geez.. worth a shot...

Please correct me if I am wrong about which CF you're speaking about.

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:38 AM

Photon
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p.53 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Randy Wright wrote:
Hi Photon,
That's correct, sorry I was not more specific!

Anyways, to make a long story short, after 2 trips to Irvine in the last few weeks, 250 miles and 5 hours later, I picked up my camera/600 lens on Good Friday the 21, shot surfpix on Sat./Sun., was STILL unhappy with the performance while using the 600 +/- 1.4 tc when shooting sequences, decided to turn OFF all tracking CF's after viewing the images on ZB and only have the camera shoot whatever Focus Point I decided to use for the next session with the 600...

CF III-2 Kept at Med Fast -(Slow/Med Slow does not cut it for surfpix, I've found)
CF III-3 CHANGED from 0-(AF priority/Tracking priority) to 1-(AF priority/Drive speed priority)
CF III-4 CHANGED from 1-(Continuous AF track priority) to 0-(Main focus point priority)
CF III-5 Kept at 0-(Focus search ON)
CF III-8 CHANGED from 1or2-(AF expansion with selected pt) to 0-(Disable)

I also use rear focus, after CF IV-2 is enabled...
...

PS-I've read and tried using Canon's Optimizing settings PDF, WildlifeimagesbyLes, etc. to find out what works for me. Hope everyones Mark III is working OK...
PSS-Thanks to Jeff, Hrow, Alistar, simonella_viru, apdieb, momv630, etc. for sharing your Mark III stories,
I've learned alot and know the Mark III's problems are NOT MY FAULT!!

Edited by Randy Wright on Mar 27, 2008 at 06:39 PM GMT
Thanks much for the clarification! I'll bet you are stoked, I would be too!

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:44 AM

apdieb
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p.53 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I just used these settings as mentioned above... Didn't do any real tests since I don't have any moving subjects.. However, I did point it at various objects and moved quickly backwards and forwards... The AF seemed to be much more rock solid..Perception anyway.. I haven't looked at any images... but the viewfinder subject didn't appear to hunt at all..

Wow.. I really need to do some tests this weekend. Never thought to turn off tracking functionality..

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:57 AM

Glen_C
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p.53 #21 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

BINGO.

jianghai_ho wrote:
The main benefit of AI servo for me is that focus is not locked - i.e. IF the subject (*or indeed the photographer) *moves* the camera can adjust to that movement. I ONLY use One Shot when the camera is on a tripod and the subject is still - when AI Servo could go into a feedback loop (like IS on a tripod). Remember that when you handhold even if the subject is still you can cause "movement" - because you are moving.

One Shot simply calculates the focus *it* thinks is best and goes to it, then stops. Doesn't make one shot more accurate than servo, i.e. whether it is or is not in focus it will stop wherever it feels it's got focus. It has it's place, for sure, but most of the time (for me), the chance that there will be some sort of movement (photographer, subject, etc) vastly outweigh the actual (or perceived) increase in accuracy of One Shot.

Someone please correct me if my conclusions are wildly inaccurate, but sometimes the FUD that gets spread around the internet is a little ridiculous (again IMHO). As far as I'm concerned actual field experience means a ton more than being able to quote from a users manual, and understanding of the actual mechanics (through theory and experience) is more important than (again) what's in the manual – How many here with older "fixed" 1D Mark IIIs actually believe what canon is now saying about the fix?

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:14 AM

apdieb
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p.53 #22 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I use AI Servo and One-Shot... But in theory, since I use the AF-On button...in AI-SERVO a simple press and release is the same thing right? But by using AI-SERVO, I have the option of holding it down to engage continuous AF... Wouldn't that be an accurate statement?

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:18 AM

Glen_C
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p.53 #23 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

yes

Mar 28, 2008 at 04:23 AM

Alistair Watson
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p.53 #24 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hi Photon,

The most significant difference between the way I configure the AF on my 1D2N and my 1D3 for sports and action stuff is the use of AF Expand. On my 1D2N I never used it for sports or motorsport, never really needed to. Sure, in low light (say rugby under floodlights at night) the AF on the N isn't as responsive as in bright light but giving the AF a fraction of a second longer to track before firing the shutter dramatically increases the keep rate - no surprise there.

The Mark 3 is different, I leave left/right AF expand dialled in all the time now, whatever the light, this gives me the keeper rate I need. For motorsport this doesn't cause me a problem because the car is covered by many more AF points. For rugby, where the players are often in a very tight group, from time to time I do see that the expand point has focussed, rather than the centre point, and thus at the slim dof a 400mm gives at f2.8 the wrong player is in focus. An annoyance? Yes, but I am learning to live with, or should I say 'tolerate' it.

I have experimented at length with the AI Servo tracking sensitivity. I didn't get on with +1 at all and at -1, well for what I shoot and for the way I shoot, lets just say 0 works best.

Side by side in good light at low ISOs, I still believe the N to have the more consistent AF system. That is to say, once it has acquired lock on the subject and assuming I smoothly track with the subject keeping the AF point in place.

With the N, I get far fewer (read hardly any) shots within the sequence out of focus, the Mark 3 does still yield the odd few frames out of focus for apparently no reason, again this decreases further using Expand, but not quite to the level I am used to with the N.

There is alot to like about the Mark 3, the ability to shoot very very useable results at ISO 6400 is great, the camera handling is far superior in my opinion so yes, I do like the 1D3. Will I ever love and trust it as much as my 1D2N? Not ever. Hopefully whatever replaces the 1D3 will restore this balance and I can go back to running 2 of the same model of body once again.

Hope this is useful.

Alistair

Mar 28, 2008 at 11:23 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.53 #25 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hrow wrote:
Many near macro shooters use Servo to compensate for photographer movement when shooting hand held.

I agree. This twig was moving because of a slight wind. MF was useless. AI servo nailed it.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:16 PM


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