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mlavander
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p.2 #1 · $16 per hour

griffitg wrote:
For someone, it will be a nice opportunity to do some work while the photographer is paid for being the Owner/Leader/Manager. What's wrong with that rate? I really don't get the problem here.

Well, for one thing, your DSLR shutter will only last for so many actuations...don't piss them away to make chump change.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 14, 2007 at 05:50 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #2 · $16 per hour

An important point here, and one often overlooked by the well-fed, is that an hourly wage is (for the most part) a price determined by supply & demand.

If someone wants to work for peanuts well that's their business. And if an employer wants to risk comprimising product quality by hiring employees with questionable skills at low pay rates that too is their business. Both parties are free to conduct their affairs as they see fit. Let the free market reign.

$32 may put a meal or two on the plate of a starving shooter .. until I've been in the shoes of the people accepting such pay rates I don't comment on the worth of it .. I'm just thankful I'm not having to accept such jobs. To me $16 per hour is outrageously low, to another it may mean a lot.

And working for peanuts is not restricted to hourly rates .. there is no shortage of budding photographers offering their services for next to nothing just to get their foot in the door, or to gain experience. Or to pay the studio rent, whatever.
Mike

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 14, 2007 at 05:57 PM

Ghost
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p.2 #3 · $16 per hour

Wow! $16/hr?! Good golly Norma Jean! Sign me up!!!

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 14, 2007 at 10:49 PM

leewoolery
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p.2 #4 · $16 per hour

John:

I paid a student/intern photographer $300.00 to photograph 3 football teams and cheerleading squads while I did the other 3 for one of my leagues this fall.

There's alot of money to be made in these youth sport team and individuals photo days with the average package price at $35.00.

Paying someone $16.00 per hour to shoot these is highway robbery since the money is paid upfront...and the company owner knows, going in, what the take will be. I could have paid an hourly rate and given the other photographer $75.00...5 hours @ $15.00 and called it a day.

Now, paying someone $10-$15.00 per hour to shoot action is another deal because you don't know what to expect with some events.

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 02:34 AM

cavis
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p.2 #5 · $16 per hour

leewoolery wrote:
I paid a student/intern photographer $300.00 to photograph 3 football teams and cheerleading squads while I did the other 3 for one of my leagues this fall.

Now see, that's more like it. +1 for leewoolery

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 04:55 AM

snaptie2002
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p.2 #6 · $16 per hour

It's hard for me to get excited about this. I don't think it reflects an industry wide standard or trend.

If I am a carpenter and contractor A is paying $10.00 per hour and Contractor B is paying $15.00 per hour, and both are hiring, I will choose B if my decision is based strictly on salary.

If A is the only one hiring I may go there until I can do better.

If I don't like A or B I can take my hammer and start my own business.

No point in griping about what other folks are doing. If it works they win, if it doesn't they lose. At least they are out there trying.

Marty

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 02:09 PM

trenchmonkey
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p.2 #7 · $16 per hour

My truck drinks more than that an hour.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 02:27 PM

Barry Pehlman
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p.2 #8 · $16 per hour

The photographer is welcome to pay whatever it is that he wants to pay for a second shooter, but the primary thing that comes to my mind is that he is going to get what he pays for.

Right, and he's the main shooter, not the second one. I think $250 minimum for the pro equipment, experience, meeting & transportation time, and pre/post production. $150 per hour after that. But for those who think that $16 is fair it might be in your best interest to get the name of the people who paid the photographer who hired you and offer an alternative package for future work based on duplicates of your assignment. That should stop those $16 per hour ads.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 04:17 PM

leewoolery
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p.2 #9 · $16 per hour

cavis wrote:
leewoolery wrote:
I paid a student/intern photographer $300.00 to photograph 3 football teams and cheerleading squads while I did the other 3 for one of my leagues this fall.

Now see, that's more like it. +1 for leewoolery

If you're makin' money, you have to pay your help. I paid one of my customer service folks $1,000 for a week-long horse event at a county fair I shot this summer and another time they made $500.00 for a two-day horse show...and they didn't have to pick up a camera....just download cards, take orders and help clients view photos.

Sometimes I even give them a percentage of the profits.

There's plenty of work out there and a good, "experienced" photographer should be busy enough with their own assignments that $16.00 wouldn't even interest them.

Maybe a student or struggling-to-survive shooter down on their luck has no choice but to take what they can get?

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 06:46 PM

Focus Locus
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p.2 #10 · $16 per hour

I found value in the post because it puts the word out there for photographers who might accept this gig to gain more shooting experience to carefully consider offers like that. The more that low rate is accepted, the more it will be expected.

The beginning photographer who does accept it will eventually realize, after paying for a shutter replacment, that it really costs more than $16 an hour just to shoot, all factors considered. So that photographer will stop accepting that low of a rate.

But the next would be photographer coming along will do an internet search and see that "$8 - $20 is the going rate around here" and believe that is the rate that is acceptable in practice. And so the revolving cycle continues.

However, when a post like this shows up, and several experienced photographers point out how one is losing money by providing all their gear, experience, and artistry for such a low hourly rate, then a search conducted by the next photographer seeking an opinion can be correctly balanced.

It is interesting to note the difference between what photographers wish to be paid themselves, and what they are willing to pay other photographers.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 08:13 PM

44lefty
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p.2 #11 · $16 per hour

Hell! White Castle pays $10.50 plus benefits just to throw sliders around.

Larry

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 15, 2007 at 08:21 PM

RDKirk
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p.2 #12 · $16 per hour

It is interesting to note the difference between what photographers wish to be paid themselves, and what they are willing to pay other photographers.

That is strangely and distressingly true. It also goes into other areas, like extremely restrictive "non-compete" clauses in contracts.

If you're makin' money, you have to pay your help. I paid one of my customer service folks $1,000 for a week-long horse event at a county fair I shot this summer and another time they made $500.00 for a two-day horse show...and they didn't have to pick up a camera....just download cards, take orders and help clients view photos.

Certainly. That speaks to honestly evaluating the importance to your operation of what they're doing. Downloading cards and handling sales is a non-artistic part of the operation, but if it is critical (and it is), then you need to pay attention to paying for reliability.

Just getting someone who can follow detailed instructions reliably is a big deal worth paying for--most young people today can't consistently follow explicit, detailed instructions to the letter even when they try.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 12:50 AM

JPetty
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p.2 #13 · $16 per hour

I think the term is "what the market will bear". $16.00 per hour where I live is very good money.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 01:18 AM

leewoolery
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p.2 #14 · $16 per hour

RDKirk wrote:

Certainly. That speaks to honestly evaluating the importance to your operation of what they're doing. Downloading cards and handling sales is a non-artistic part of the operation, but if it is critical (and it is), then you need to pay attention to paying for reliability.

Just getting someone who can follow detailed instructions reliably is a big deal worth paying for--most young people today can't consistently follow explicit, detailed instructions to the letter even when they try.

RDKirk:

I couldn't agree with you more!

...concerning two of the best workers I've ever had in my operation, one is approaching retirement and the other is 79 years old.

One of my clients works for a large temp agency and laments all the time about the work ethic ( lack of it ) exhibited by a good portion of the younger-age job pool.

Her advice to me was to find...and do everything possible to keep...a worker who was near retirement. They seem to be the only ones...in her experience and mine...who care about doing the job right. This isn't to say all young workers are bad but most of the ones I've encountered just have bad habits which I'm not going to pay to correct.

You can have the greatest photos in the world for an on-location event but if your customer service people foul up, you're not going to be making any money.

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Action Photography
www.speedshotphoto.com

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 01:48 AM

radiodenver
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p.2 #15 · $16 per hour

The sad thing is that some guy with a camera will be happy to work for $16 an hour. A lot of these chain portrait studios (Target, Walmart, portraits are us blah blah blah...) will only pay $8 per hour. The people paying this wage aren't interested in the quality of the work or the reliability of the photographer, it's just somebody with a camera to take pictures with a better camera than they have.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #16 · $16 per hour

radiodenver wrote:
The sad thing is that some guy with a camera will be happy to work for $16 an hour. A lot of these chain portrait studios (Target, Walmart, portraits are us blah blah blah...) will only pay $8 per hour. The people paying this wage aren't interested in the quality of the work or the reliability of the photographer, it's just somebody with a camera to take pictures with a better camera than they have.

Isn't this covered under the supply and demand logic that you talked about in the stock photo thread?

I'm guessing this topic hits a little closer to home then stock photos do.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 09:23 PM

John Patrick
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p.2 #17 · $16 per hour

JPetty wrote:
I think the term is "what the market will bear". $16.00 per hour where I live is very good money.

Well, in the area in question (Chicago), that's not good money for a skilled person using their own equipment when the job is only 2 hours.

I've noticed that the people who comment that the rate isn't all that bad, don't seem to be paying attention to the fact that it's only 2 hours. Not 2 hours per day, or 2 hours per week. Just 2 hours!

So, for $32, you get to drive there (gas here is $3.19/gal, and around Chicago, you can't get anywhere directly--you always have to go someplace else, first!), shoot a T&I for 2 hours, drive back, and somehow get the paid, contracted photog (who couldn't be there for some reason) the shots. Would anyone be surprised if there was some hassle involved: getting there, parking, getting back, communication with the contracted photog, getting the photog the shots, getting paid...

I'm curious to contact him and ask him how it went....

John

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 10:02 PM

radiodenver
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p.2 #18 · $16 per hour

Probably right about the supply and demand thing. Not very close to home though. I just think about students trying to get into photography...maybe this is what they have to look forward to.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 10:02 PM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #19 · $16 per hour

Collleges telling photo students that they can make $50K+ right of school is whole different can of worms to talk about.

Imagine coming out of brooks with $100K+ in loans to the market right now. Very scary.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 10:30 PM

radiodenver
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p.2 #20 · $16 per hour

It's beyond scary. When I talk to kids learning this, I advise them to enjoy the photography but learn something that will make them a good living. Hey, I just realized, you're local! HA! Small world.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 10:37 PM

xicotencatl
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p.2 #21 · $16 per hour

Being a FT Photog (not pro) ... I wouldn't go for less than $75 + I don't care what it is!

Usually these kind of ppl don't care about quality. All they want is to get the job done, deliver some pix and make the $$$$$$$$$$$.

In my area, there are a few guys who hire (students/new photog) to shoot weds and other events. They are trained (2-3 weeks "P, Auto") and they are good to go. How much do they get paid/event? $100-$150 !!!!

These employees don't care about their reputation.... they know there's always coming their way

Now, imagine the crappy images they're delivering

Xicotencatl

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 16, 2007 at 10:42 PM

griffitg
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p.2 #22 · $16 per hour

As a FULL-TIME photographer, I'm not guaranteed anything when I go on some of my shoots, so whatever I agree to pay my help has to be paid REGARDLESS of my sales for the day. So, I can understand playing it close to the vest when it comes to how much to pay another photographer.

As an example, I covered an event last week where I took an assistant (non-shooting) with me to handle the payments, envelopes, etc.....

I was told when setting up the job that there would be around one-hundred couples there and that they traditionally got around 50% participation (40-50 couples, right?). Well, it turns out the job was a complete waist of my time. We were there for nearly four hours and only GROSSED $250 dollars. My assistant was promised $10 per hour which meant I still had to pay her $70 dollars because her clock started when we left the studio and ended when we got back. Minus the prints, fuel cost, and time I'll be lucky to clear $100 dollars.

Let's play this out as if I hired another photographer to shoot this job. If I had agreed to pay them $16 an hour, I would have owed them $112 and the assistant $70 which would have left me with a GROSS profit of around $68 dollars. Factor in prints and other cost and this job would have cost me money.

My point in all this is that running a business is not always easy and you can't always pay people as well as you want. I look at a job and decide what I am comfortable GUARANTEEing my workers before I commit to something. If the job goes well and profits are up, I most often provide a bonus to them as part of the team. If the money isn't there, I pay them what I promised and bite my toungue if that comes up to more than I get to keep myself.

So, if you want to talk about how someone runs there business, try going FULL-TIME and seeing for yourself how different it can be.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 17, 2007 at 01:41 AM

griffitg
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p.2 #23 · $16 per hour

I'll comment on another thing here that some seem to miss. As you mature as a FULL-TIME photographer you start to learn that being a photographer is what you do as a Professional BUSINESS PERSON. So, repeat after me...

I am a BUSINESS PERSON that sales photography services and products.

I am NOT a PHOTOGRAPHER that's in business.

If you don't believe this, just look around at how many sorry photographers stay in business because they understand something about their market and business while the GREAT photographer with the nice cameras shuts his doors because he/she can't get enough business to make it work.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 17, 2007 at 01:46 AM

Baldur
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p.2 #24 · $16 per hour

The normal day rate over here for a non shooting experienced assistant is about $ 450. The photographers association recommends $ 230 an hour for commercial work and about $ 150 for editorial plus expenses (equipment, studio, assistant, etc). For $ 16 I could perhaps get an eastern block illegal to do some tiling work in my Sauna but that's about it.

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 17, 2007 at 02:48 AM

shatterkiss
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p.2 #25 · $16 per hour

You have your own sauna? I should come to Sweden and work as your assistant. I'm available for $16/hr (plus use of your sauna if you need me as a second shooter).

Edited on Nov 22, 2007 at 03:28 AM

Nov 17, 2007 at 03:14 AM


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