Help! Image shot for work goes national

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prof_fate
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p.2 #1 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

ericevans wrote:
Actually the model should put her hand out and when it has a check in it then she signs the release . That is the only way she will get paid . Otherwise she needs to to them to piss off until the check is written . If the shoot was on company property during her normal business hours she may be screwed anyway .

Uh huh. And the next time she's 5 minutes late getting back from lunch she'll be fired. Everyone will know why she was really fired. You can't put a gun to the head of your employer and expect it to not have any repercussions.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 01, 2007 at 09:56 PM

dinoadventures
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p.2 #2 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

prof_fate wrote:
Almost every job description has 'other duties as assigned'. Besides, the boss asked and he did it. too late now to squawk about it. the only reason to squawk is greed - he wants paid extra AFTER agreeing to do the work for his regular pay...
If you have a regular job and take pics for the boss/company the company owns the copyright unless it's spelled out in some other form. as a graphic designer i'm sure his employment contract says any cretive work he does belongs to the company.

I've clarified with my superiors on several previous occasions that it isn't my job. I was not specifically asked to shoot this, it was something I did as part of delivering the artwork for the presentation job.

My employment contract does not say anything about me performing photographer duties, nor does it say that my creative work belongs to the agency.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 01, 2007 at 10:40 PM

Deezie
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p.2 #3 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

The bottom line is, if the OP values his job, he'll take the hit on this and speak up the next time BEFORE he takes a photo. If he hates his job and thinks he can get a little dough on the side, then so be it. Write-off the job and collect your money. Just don't expect a reference from your former employer.

If I were in this situation where nothing was specifically discussed in regards to compensation, I would feel blind-sided if the employee then asked for money - regardless if it was used as an exploration or a final comp.

Out of fairness, I would compensate the employee, but they would be removed from any future important projects and eventually fazed out of my company - sooner than later. There's an element of integrity and trust at stake, and I would always be looking over my shoulder waiting for the other shoe to drop on the next project.

Our designers wear many hats from copywriting and design and art direction. The more initiative they show, the more we reward them come bonus time and extra days off just for the hell of it. But if a designer comes to me and wants extra money for copywriting because he came up with a cool tagline for a poster, and without my asking him to, then we're going to have a real problem.

I would suggest, like many here have, that you keep your mouth shut and learn to offer your extra services with a caveat, or be prepared to lose the trust of your boss and eventually your job. It's kind of a no-brainer, here. It's mind-boggling that you can't see it.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 01, 2007 at 10:53 PM

CTYankee
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p.2 #4 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

dinoadventures wrote:
prof_fate wrote:
Almost every job description has 'other duties as assigned'. Besides, the boss asked and he did it. too late now to squawk about it. the only reason to squawk is greed - he wants paid extra AFTER agreeing to do the work for his regular pay...
If you have a regular job and take pics for the boss/company the company owns the copyright unless it's spelled out in some other form. as a graphic designer i'm sure his employment contract says any cretive work he does belongs to the company.

I've clarified with my superiors on several previous occasions that it isn't my job. I was not specifically asked to shoot this, it was something I did as part of delivering the artwork for the presentation job.

My employment contract does not say anything about me performing photographer duties, nor does it say that my creative work belongs to the agency.

This scenario has 'work for hire' written all over it. You won't have much to say in court, and should you make a fuss with your company it could mean a very short leash or termination. You were asked to do something by your employer and you did it. Just because its different than normal work doesn't mean you are entitled to double dip. Did they pay you for the time you were shooting? If so then that is your pay for this photo.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 01, 2007 at 11:05 PM

PhotoGuy76
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p.2 #5 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

Dino, seems you have two choices: Breathe deeply and suck it up or breathe deeply and pay a lawyer and suck it up. Sorry dude.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 02, 2007 at 03:09 AM

nyjshooter
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p.2 #6 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

If the models image is used for commercial appropriation without her consent, the agency is $crewed. When they consult their attorney after receiving the complaint from the models attorney, they will $hit themselves. Really though, all of us should have a copy of the Photographer's Legal Guide written by Carolyn E. Wright. I have a copy on my desktop, and just read about this issue on page 87. The model has the strongest case, and holds the cards in my opinion.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 02, 2007 at 06:05 PM

CTYankee
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p.2 #7 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

nyjshooter wrote:
If the models image is used for commercial appropriation without her consent, the agency is $crewed. When they consult their attorney after receiving the complaint from the models attorney, they will $hit themselves. Really though, all of us should have a copy of the Photographer's Legal Guide written by Carolyn E. Wright. I have a copy on my desktop, and just read about this issue on page 87. The model has the strongest case, and holds the cards in my opinion.

As stated earlier this falls in to a much different situation than a standard model. She is an employee and contracts can often state such uses of image and likeness are allowed. My friend had it happen to her.

She would be better off just saying, "I don't want my image used..." to which they may respond...OK, what if we pay you. Then the offer is from them and she gets her money and does not look like an employee out to get them.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 02, 2007 at 06:43 PM

nyjshooter
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p.2 #8 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

CT: Ahh, I missed the part where she's an employee. I agree with you that she should make it known that she doesn't want the image used. I don't know though......it's still a bit touchy. It may be worth it for her to do a consult with an attorney. There are still a few out there who will do a free consultation.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 02, 2007 at 06:48 PM

Deezie
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p.2 #9 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

She would be better off just saying, "I don't want my image used..." to which they may respond...OK, what if we pay you. Then the offer is from them and she gets her money and does not look like an employee out to get them.

Very well put, CT. Management may realize it's cheaper to pay her and the photographer for something the client's already signed-off on, instead of doing a reshoot.

On another note, I find it troubling that these two employees recognize that there is a legal issue in play that could result in damages to both company and client. To put their own self-interest above the well-being of the company they work for and not disclose this matter is untenable. Management sometimes gets overwhelmed and details fall through the cracks. Many times we rely on the people close to the project to bring up an issue that is unresolved or forgotten - and we are always thankful when they do.

I find myself relieved that the OP doesn't work for my firm.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 02, 2007 at 07:38 PM

Hersch
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p.2 #10 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

Nov 04, 2007 at 02:33 AM

Craig Gillette
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p.2 #11 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

If you haven't read this, read it.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

It's a good start in getting to the decision if you want to move forward - but you'd want qualified employment attorney advice.

If you want to beef the terms and conditions of your employment contract, you may want to do so quietly with an attorney before doing so loudly with your boss - as do many of the others, I'll remind you the squeaking wheel may get greased.

They should get a release for the model, as while it's not at all unusual for contracts to include pro forma release for company publicity, etc., her image is being used for someone else. I'd suggest this be looked as a loose end to be tied up and not as an opportunity to put it to the company or the client.

If it gets to the point that this obviously isn't appreciated or reciprocated, then you might consider working someplace else. If you try to mess with them, you almost certainly will.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 04, 2007 at 05:53 AM

BubbaJon
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p.2 #12 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

Hmmmm - maybe I'm off base here and the OP can straighten it out but I think a lot of folks are skimming the top and jumping to conclusions. It sounds like what happened was the OP had some work that involved laying out a concept ad to be considered for a big account. He had an idea for a photo to go into the ad in the process of designing his take on the layout (usually several will be entered for consideration). Rather than rough sketch/storyboarding it he snagged a coworker and shot a take on what he thought the ad needed. So now the ad department gets this submission and because it looks finished they assume it is. They get excited (maybe someone had dropped the ball and it was late), jump the gun and show it to the client.
So now the OP who shot the pic is thinking maybe he deserves a piece of the marketing pie because if he hadn't done it they would have paid a pro contract shooter to do the job. And as far as he is concerned it is not part of his job duties. Not to mention now we have a coworker who may or may not want her image splashed across the world for free. She might even hold the OP liable for getting her into this mess.
Not that this makes it any less of a sticky wicket but some folks have been popping off about all sorts of stuff.
One of the thoughts that come to mind is how they normally contract out a photographer - is it as a work for hire? If so then the best the OP could hope for would be the normal fee paid to the "normal" shooter.
Personally I'd submit my case to the powers that be and accept whatever they offer. Anything else is a combat situation and will not end well for the OP in any scenario I can envision. The manner in which the OP's company handle it will speak volumes about the folks he works for. The female coworker is responsible for her own negotiations - hopefully it won't result in a finger pointing back to the OP.
Regards,
Jon

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 05, 2007 at 05:00 PM

dinoadventures
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p.2 #13 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

BubbaJon wrote:
Hmmmm - maybe I'm off base here and the OP can straighten it out but I think a lot of folks are skimming the top and jumping to conclusions. It sounds like what happened was the OP had some work that involved laying out a concept ad to be considered for a big account. He had an idea for a photo to go into the ad in the process of designing his take on the layout (usually several will be entered for consideration). Rather than rough sketch/storyboarding it he snagged a coworker and shot a take on what he thought the ad needed. So now the ad department gets this submission and because it looks finished they assume it is. They get excited (maybe someone had dropped the ball and it was late), jump the gun and show it to the client.
So now the OP who shot the pic is thinking maybe he deserves a piece of the marketing pie because if he hadn't done it they would have paid a pro contract shooter to do the job. And as far as he is concerned it is not part of his job duties. Not to mention now we have a coworker who may or may not want her image splashed across the world for free. She might even hold the OP liable for getting her into this mess.
Not that this makes it any less of a sticky wicket but some folks have been popping off about all sorts of stuff.
One of the thoughts that come to mind is how they normally contract out a photographer - is it as a work for hire? If so then the best the OP could hope for would be the normal fee paid to the "normal" shooter.
Personally I'd submit my case to the powers that be and accept whatever they offer. Anything else is a combat situation and will not end well for the OP in any scenario I can envision. The manner in which the OP's company handle it will speak volumes about the folks he works for. The female coworker is responsible for her own negotiations - hopefully it won't result in a finger pointing back to the OP.
Regards,
Jon

That's exactly right. To answer your question, our usual shooter is work for hire.

Last I heard they're negotiating with the model while planning out the logistics of a reshoot.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 05, 2007 at 05:05 PM

nathanlake
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p.2 #14 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

At the time you did this, did you consider it just part of your job? Was the model also a regular employee doing her job too? If so, I would guess the product now belongs to your employer.

Even if that is not the case, how far are you willing to take this? If you ask for money and the company says no, will you take them to court? Is it worth losing your job over this issue? You need to answer these questions before you move forward.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 05, 2007 at 10:35 PM

BubbaJon
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p.2 #15 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

dinoadventures wrote:
That's exactly right. To answer your question, our usual shooter is work for hire.
Last I heard they're negotiating with the model while planning out the logistics of a reshoot.
Isn't that funny that they have to plan the logistics for something you popped off? Welll maybe more effort than a simple pop but I get the impression that it was a fairly quick setup and execution. You might want to point out the costs of their endeavor vs just paying you a fee - after all they already have what the customer wants. Of course they might see that as setting a bad precedent...
Good luck and keep us posted.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 06, 2007 at 05:41 PM

jamesf99
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p.2 #16 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

Wow. I agree with many here that think you have no right to additional compensation. The whole intent here was to cut the real photographer out of the contract/compensation and do things on the cheap. You willingly volunteered to shoot the "concept" with no compensation requested/offered, and you then coaxed a "model" into your scheme. All without expectations of compensation by anyone.

If anyone deserves anything, it would be the model since it is her image, but I can't see how you deserve anything. This reminds me of the people that always look for ways to get money out someone else, and not always honestly. This is one of the reasons that companies request employees sign employment agreements, in which it is often stated that your work product belongs to them. While I'm loath to cut any photographer out of their compensation, your expectation of a new camera or other is simply untenable. I find it's extremely sad that you don't realize this and you now want sympathy from photographers that actually earn their pay.....

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 13, 2007 at 06:01 PM

dinoadventures
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p.2 #17 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

jamesf99 wrote:
Wow. I agree with many here that think you have no right to additional compensation. The whole intent here was to cut the real photographer out of the contract/compensation and do things on the cheap. You willingly volunteered to shoot the "concept" with no compensation requested/offered, and you then coaxed a "model" into your scheme. All without expectations of compensation by anyone.

If anyone deserves anything, it would be the model since it is her image, but I can't see how you deserve anything. This reminds me of the people that always look for ways to get money out someone else, and not always honestly. This is one of the reasons that companies request employees sign employment agreements, in which it is often stated that your work product belongs to them. While I'm loath to cut any photographer out of their compensation, your expectation of a new camera or other is simply untenable. I find it's extremely sad that you don't realize this and you now want sympathy from photographers that actually earn their pay.....

Stop with the assumptions. I don't get where you think that I'm trying to bilk someone for a new camera.

Let me explain what happened here. I was trying to determine the nature of the situation and determine whether or not the model or myself should get additional compensation. You decided to take that all wrong and trying to spin this as if I'm trying to defraud someone and chose to fabricate things about employee agreements that weren't a factor in this equation. I read up on it and determined I don't have the basis for requesting compensation so I went ahead and clarified with my employer that I don't shoot for them for free from now on. The model's arrangement my employer is out of my hands. Resist the urge to bitch someone out on false pretenses.

Edited on Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM

Nov 13, 2007 at 07:35 PM

jamesf99
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p.2 #18 · Help! Image shot for work goes national

dinoadventures wrote:
jamesf99 wrote:
Wow. I agree with many here that think you have no right to additional compensation. The whole intent here was to cut the real photographer out of the contract/compensation and do things on the cheap. You willingly volunteered to shoot the "concept" with no compensation requested/offered, and you then coaxed a "model" into your scheme. All without expectations of compensation by anyone.

If anyone deserves anything, it would be the model since it is her image, but I can't see how you deserve anything. This reminds me of the people that always look for ways to get money out someone else, and not always honestly. This is one of the reasons that companies request employees sign employment agreements, in which it is often stated that your work product belongs to them. While I'm loath to cut any photographer out of their compensation, your expectation of a new camera or other is simply untenable. I find it's extremely sad that you don't realize this and you now want sympathy from photographers that actually earn their pay.....

Stop with the assumptions. I don't get where you think that I'm trying to bilk someone for a new camera.

I think I got the camera idea from you. Here's the quote

"I'd settle for an extra paycheck or a D300."

Your words, not mine...

Let me explain what happened here. I was trying to determine the nature of the situation and determine whether or not the model or myself should get additional compensation. You decided to take that all wrong and trying to spin this as if I'm trying to defraud someone and chose to fabricate things about employee agreements that weren't a factor in this equation. I read up on it and determined I don't have the basis for requesting compensation so I went ahead and clarified with my employer that I don't shoot for them for free from now on. The model's arrangement my employer is out of my hands. Resist the urge to bitch someone out on false pretenses.

Bitch someone out

WTF

I have worked for companies where many of us have contributed millions of dollars to the bottom line. What we received was an agreed upon salary, or just compensation for doing the work. I guess it's an age thing. I kind of feel like a deal is a deal (i.e. your agreement to work for your employer), but many today feel that they're entitled to whatever they can get regardless of rules or precedence.

I'm sorry, I don't want to argue, but I think you're playing a role of the "wronged" or the victim. I read all your statements, as well as those of others, and just don't see it the way you do. What you wrote may or may not be what you intended, so I'll agree with others that have said we all make mistakes.

I still don't think you're entitled to anything, but I can't see this conversation going anywhere so I'll leave it alone..

Nov 13, 2007 at 08:49 PM


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