fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1              3              6       7       end
  

Archive 2007 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?

  
 
grmedhat1
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


This isn't rocket science folks. If you NEED certain gear, and Canon has it and Nikon doesn't, what's the problem? Seems there's a lot of gear head chest thumping going on with the my brand has more than your brand kind of thing.




Oct 06, 2007 at 01:31 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


johnnydanger wrote:
And one more thing. Yeah affordable full frame. You know, like a 5D for $2500 or a used one in mint condition like he picked up for $1900. That's a far cry cheaper than a $5k+ D3. So yeah affordable in comparison. And the reason? The lense selection allowed by a FF camera. Specifically large aperture lenses wider than 45mm equiv.


Dude, if you don't like what Nikon has, stop complaining about it and be happy with your Canon gear. And why would a Canon shooter like yourself be in this forum except to complain and troll? Where is that troll picture when I need it?





Oct 06, 2007 at 02:05 PM
AUnderwood
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


only a wish list coming from me. I would love to come back to Nikon one day.

But being a mostly available light wedding photographer it leaves me with Canon as being the best option for now.



Oct 06, 2007 at 02:06 PM
johnnydanger
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


You guys need to cool your jets. Holy cow. Did anybody notice the name of the thread "Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?" That's what the whole thread is about. Lack of primes. I made an entry in response to the thread starter that supported my experience and a friends experience and I was ridiculed for 2 pages. Lovely. Nice hospitable crowd you have here. Sorry for supporting the pre-tense of the thread.

And I'm hardly complaining and yes I am happy with my Canon gear. Just stating fact and offering a situation in which someone else wasn't happy about the prime availability thing either.

And lastly: I'm trolling? What about the Nikon guy that started the thread? Why is someone's response that is inline with the thread topic trolling? WTF.

Enjoy your happy Nikon forum, sorry for offering my opinion.



Oct 06, 2007 at 02:12 PM
maxx9photo
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Seems that everyone forget about Zeiss, they released some primes like a year ago and they're wonderful line of lenses.


Oct 06, 2007 at 02:22 PM
mjmetts
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Avi B wrote:
Poor Nikon. Can't catch a break. People want lower noise. Coming soon. People want full-frame. Also coming soon. Now they want "affordable" full-frame. Bunch of crybabies....

Although there is a wide-aperture UWA prime "hole", wouldnt the 14-24 f/2.8 obviate the need for primes? Unless you want to be "portable", in which case you're probably not lugging around a 3.5lbs camera body anyway... But to each their own.


Won't cut it. A full two stops slower.



Oct 06, 2007 at 03:13 PM
mjmetts
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


maxx9photo wrote:
Seems that everyone forget about Zeiss, they released some primes like a year ago and they're wonderful line of lenses.


Yes, but these are manual focus and not very wide or fast. Definitely not the solution working pros are looking for.



Oct 06, 2007 at 03:14 PM
snegron
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


johnnydanger wrote:
You guys need to cool your jets. Holy cow. Did anybody notice the name of the thread "Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?" That's what the whole thread is about. Lack of primes. I made an entry in response to the thread starter that supported my experience and a friends experience and I was ridiculed for 2 pages. Lovely. Nice hospitable crowd you have here. Sorry for supporting the pre-tense of the thread.

And I'm hardly complaining and yes I am happy with my Canon gear. Just stating fact and offering a situation in which someone else wasn't happy about the prime availability
...Show more


Take a deep breath, relax! Be happy! Yes, the OP was correct in assuming that Nikon has forgotten about primes. It seems that way despite the fact that they released a few high end teles that maybe some rich Saudi Arabian prince might buy for fun.

It does seem that Nikon has not introduced any recent innovations for the rest of us poor folk (except the 105 VR) in the recent past and the OP has every right to feel dissapointed.

I like primes because they are worry-free IMO. Zooms (the pro series) are more expensive and render images comparable to much lower priced primes.

I agree, Nikon should give us some more Prime alternatives, but the reality is that it all boils down to money. Nikon (as well as all other big name camera manufacturers) has decided to cater to the "average Joe consumer" or "soccer mom Betty" because they represent volume sales.

Note: Joe and Betty, if you are on this forum reading this thread you have graduated to camera obsessive geek like the rest of us, therefore, you are no longer in the above-mentioned category.

The few of us dedicated Nikon followers (or obsessive-compusive camera addicts, whatever) only represent a very small fraction of Nikon's overall clientell. Yes, all 20 of us in here will go out and buy the D300 when it is released, but in the meantime Nikon will sell 18,000 D40x kits worldwide in about a month. Do the math. Interesting point is that about 95% of those 18,000 people who buy the D40x kit have usually consulted one of us camera geeks. They just figured it was cheaper to get a 10 megapixel camera with a zoom lens for a fraction of the price of that D200 thing... Nikon should give us free D300's for spreading the Nikon Follower's Philosophy for free.

In the meantime, we all will wait as eagerly as the family pet for whatever crumbs fall from the Nikon experimental production table.



Oct 06, 2007 at 03:18 PM
widget_13
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Is there a lack of wide fast primes in Nikon's lineup?

Yes.

I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees with that.

Is it reasonable to expect Nikon to fix everything at once? Not really. The D3/D300 and all the new lenses we got are a big deal and a big step forwards.

Do I think Nikon will update their wide primes? Yes. When? Nobody knows, but likely rolling it out over the next 3-5 years (I'm just guessing!).

In the meantime, throw a Sigma 30 1.4 on your DX-crop body and enjoy one of the best mid-wide lenses there is out there. Or go over to the Canon forum and listen to them being jealous of Nikon's 14 2.8



Oct 06, 2007 at 03:31 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


johnnydanger wrote:
You guys need to cool your jets. Holy cow. Did anybody notice the name of the thread "Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?" That's what the whole thread is about. Lack of primes. I made an entry in response to the thread starter that supported my experience and a friends experience and I was ridiculed for 2 pages. Lovely. Nice hospitable crowd you have here. Sorry for supporting the pre-tense of the thread.

And I'm hardly complaining and yes I am happy with my Canon gear. Just stating fact and offering a situation in which someone else wasn't happy about the prime availability
...Show more

It's all in the attitude of the way you phrase things and the example you chose.

Calling Nikon lame is not going to go over well in this forum as we like our gear and most of us don't think they are lame, but smart in going after what they needed to first ... and as was explained, fast wide glass is low on the over-all list.

Saying that someone ditched a D200 because of the lack of FX format fast wide glass does not make sence since the D200 is a DX format camera.

These are just two examples ... reread your posts and they are ladden with attitude that clearly is made to make Nikonians feel stupid (or to use your words, lame). You don't expect us to respond in kind?

By the way, ALL Nikon cameras are "full frame". We have "full frame" DX format and we have "full frame" FX format (that has a DX crop option.

Good Bye!



Oct 06, 2007 at 07:08 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


snegron wrote:
It does seem that Nikon has not introduced any recent innovations for the rest of us poor folk (except the 105 VR) in the recent past and the OP has every right to feel dissapointed.

I like primes because they are worry-free IMO. Zooms (the pro series) are more expensive and render images comparable to much lower priced primes.

I agree, Nikon should give us some more Prime alternatives, but the reality is that it all boils down to money. Nikon (as well as all other big name camera manufacturers) has decided to cater to the "average Joe consumer" or
...Show more

You certainly are right that the pro zooms are larger, heavier and more expensive than comprable primes, but alteratively each pro zoom replaces at least 3 primes, the sum of which would be larger, heavier and more expensive.

There is one thing I would disagree with you on though. There are a lot of pros who like the the pro quality zooms for exacly the reason I gave above (i.e. being lighter, smaller and less expensive than a comprable SET of primes) as well as the flexability of these lenses. This is not just a pro-sumer or consumer phenomenon.



Oct 06, 2007 at 07:17 PM
mjmetts
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


My main beef is the speed advantage and the fact that most designs are dated.

Although maybe now, with the advent of FX format, Nikon will release a fast, wide prime that will actually be fast. I have a feelling that this was in development since before the 28 1.4 was taken off the market. I can only hope that they'd give the 85 1.4 AFS as well.



Oct 06, 2007 at 07:21 PM
snegron
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Andre Labonte wrote:
You certainly are right that the pro zooms are larger, heavier and more expensive than comprable primes, but alteratively each pro zoom replaces at least 3 primes, the sum of which would be larger, heavier and more expensive.

There is one thing I would disagree with you on though. There are a lot of pros who like the the pro quality zooms for exacly the reason I gave above (i.e. being lighter, smaller and less expensive than a comprable SET of primes) as well as the flexability of these lenses. This is not just a pro-sumer or consumer phenomenon.




....But, using a camera with one prime is lighter. Much lighter than with a pro zoom. When I was "forced" to use an 85mm 1.8 and a 180mm 2.8 as primary telephotos while my 80-200mm 2.8 was in the shop, I noticed the difference after 1 hour during a wedding shoot. When you add the 80-200mm 2.8 to a D1X body, things get really heavy after awhile. I felt that with the 85 and the 180 I was able to capture my indoor cropped shots much better than with my 80-200mm 2.8. Due to the fact that the primes were so light on the camera, all my shots were handheld and they were sharp as ever.

To capture the images between 85mm and 180mm all I did was either take a few steps forward or back. The lighter setup was great and so was getting low light shots with the 85mm. I like the setup so much that I stored the 80-200mm 2.8 away and now use the 85mm and the 180mm as my lenses. Interesting note is that both those lenses together weigh less than the 80-200!

FWIW, shots I have taken with my Nikon 35mm 2.0 AF D appear to be just as sharp as the ones I take with my Nikon 17-55mm 2.8. Even my inexpensive 50mm 1.8 delivers equal results! The reason I have not replaced my 17-55 with the smaller primes for wedding work is because I need speed and ease of use. I wish I could get by with just one light weight 28mm 1.4 AF ED S (as soon as Nikon releases one) for most of my wedding work, but I'm stuck with the 17-55 for now. I would bet that I can cover any wedding with just three lenses: a wide angle in the 24mm or 28mm category, an 85mm, and a 180mm.

For all my personal stuff I carry light and take my primes with me. I rarely use a zoom other than a 28-105 that I place on a back up camera just in case it rains at the amusement park and I don't want to ruin my primes.







Oct 06, 2007 at 08:08 PM
Gregg Heckler
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


I appreciate your desire for fast primes. I would love to have an AFS 28 1.4 for my D200. But Nikon is making what the "majority" of their customers want, good zooms, and making money at it. They are also at capacity and growing. Somebody's going to lose out and it's the prime guys. If the D3 ISO performance is everything it's supposed to be the wedding guys won't need the fast primes anyway.


Oct 06, 2007 at 08:12 PM
mjmetts
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


snegron wrote:
To capture the images between 85mm and 180mm all I did was either take a few steps forward or back. The lighter setup was great and so was getting low light shots with the 85mm. I like the setup so much that I stored the 80-200mm 2.8 away and now use the 85mm and the 180mm as my lenses. Interesting note is that both those lenses together weigh less than the 80-200!

FWIW, shots I have taken with my Nikon 35mm 2.0 AF D appear to be just as sharp as the ones I take with my Nikon 17-55mm 2.8. Even
...Show more

Just a side question - how do you find the AF performance on the 85 and 180 lenses? I am looking into long-range options for weddings and my thought was these two lenses but thought that the AF performance would suffer due to lack of AFS. I would be using these on my back-up D80. Do you think I'd be dissapointed or do they need a Pro-grade AF system?



Oct 06, 2007 at 08:15 PM
mjmetts
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Gregg Heckler wrote:
I appreciate your desire for fast primes. I would love to have an AFS 28 1.4 for my D200. But Nikon is making what the "majority" of their customers want, good zooms, and making money at it. They are also at capacity and growing. Somebody's going to lose out and it's the prime guys. If the D3 ISO performance is everything it's supposed to be the wedding guys won't need the fast primes anyway.


Statements like these keep confusing me. Just because camera IQ gets better, that doesn't mean we need to move all our lenses down two stops. To me, better high-ISO performance would open up areas that have been previously unexplored. Night and documentary photography will be full of new possibilities. Shots that would be noisy before would now be clean. I'm glad the image quality is getting better and better but it doesn't eliminate the place for fast primes.



Oct 06, 2007 at 08:20 PM
snegron
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


mjmetts wrote:
Just a side question - how do you find the AF performance on the 85 and 180 lenses? I am looking into long-range options for weddings and my thought was these two lenses but thought that the AF performance would suffer due to lack of AFS. I would be using these on my back-up D80. Do you think I'd be dissapointed or do they need a Pro-grade AF system?



As far as AF goes, other than being a tad bit noiser I can't tell the difference between the S and non S lenses mentioned above.

My primary cameras for weddings are a pair of D1X's and a D200 as back up. I mostly set my AF area mode in camera to single area AF and lock it via the rear round multi selector button. If I'm shooting a group, I lock focus on the eyes of one subject, recompose without releasing the shutter button, then shoot. Works for me every time!

My complaint with the 85mm 1.8 is that it has a very shallow depth of field. This is just the nature of any fast prime in the small telephoto range. Shooting wide open, especially portraits, will produce soft results in the majority of the image except for the pinpoint spot that you focused on (like maybe that small blemish on the subject's nose). I end up getting better results at 2.8 or more.

The 180 is simply spectacular! Except for the useless built in hood and the exposed aperture blades, I find it to be flawless. And I have the non D version! A note on the built in hood; I dislike it because unlike other snap on hoods it offers no protection if someone bumps into your lens (very common at just about every wedding I have ever shot). The built in hood does not snap into place, so it is too easily pushed back. As for focusing with it, I have never experienced any problems even in very low light situations ( the majority of my weddings are indoors or at night for some reason).



Oct 06, 2007 at 08:41 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


snegron,

It's interesting how people's styles are so different. I'm planning on picking up a 2nd camera body because I can't stand switching lenses, even between my mid-range and my tele zooms. Size and weight don't seem to bother me as much as the interuption of having to switch my gear around. I will say though, that slow variable aperture zooms drive me nuts, and I do LOVE my 50 f/1.8 (I wish I had a 50 f/1.4). Also, I do fully appreciate the NEED and desire for fast primes; it's just most people prefer and thus buy, zoom lenses. I think you will get your fast primes before too long though ... I sincerely hope I'm right about this.

Cheers,
Andre



Oct 06, 2007 at 09:01 PM
Avi B
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


Point ceded on the need for shallow DOF in WA or UWA....

But, it always amazes me when people call certain prime designs "dated". Optics is optics is optics. If there is a good design, why would one change it? Only thing I can think of is if they would use things like ED elements or "nanocoating" or whatever. But if those things don't actually improve the performance of the lenses (or have an imperceptible difference) and only add cost, why would one put it in a product? I always like to use the example of the Boeing 747, which is a "dated" design (originally designed in the mid 60s)... Do they still not sell 747s? Certainly, they do, with some tweaks and so on, and naturally better avionics than in the 60s, but the basic airframe design is still the same. Should Boeing "fix" a "dated" design?

Anyway, for Nikkor primes, if the optical formulation works, the only thing that needs to "fixed" is inclusion of AF-S motors, and on the longer ones, VR. On my lowly D70s, the speed of the AF-D motor is slow, but on a pro-body with high-torque motor, it is not really an issue... Although it is more noisy (soundwise)




Oct 06, 2007 at 09:33 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #20 · Primes! Has Nikon forgotten?


SnaggS wrote:
Many of us don't own a zoom, and arn't interested in a zoom at any time in the future.


I bet your definition of "many" is huge in your eyes, but is a drop in the bucket within the continuum of potential market segments for Nikon. Heck, you're the first person I ever heard with that view. So I'd guess that your "many" is a few thousand, maybe as high as 10,000, in the world. And I'm being reeeeeally generous with that estimate. So what makes you think that your market of "many" prime-only photogs is more important to Nikon than those markets they are trying to serve before yours? Provide a real, numerical, and defensible answer to that, and you'll have Nikon's undivided attention while you explain it.

But I doubt you can get such an answer... there must be millions of pro-am or pro photogs out there who use zooms quite happily in addition to primes. And for many segments, Nikon's primes are already fan-bloody-tastic. For sports, wildlife, birds, and airplanes to give a few examples, I could ask for nothing more than Nikon's current line: the 70-200, 200, 200-400, 300, 400, 500, 600 are all pretty much new lenses.

Listen, there are a ton of shooters out there that use and like primes. There is a clear market demand for primes. And I'm sure Nikon will develop those primes as and when it has the resources to do so, just like it will develop other lenses/bodies/accessories as and when it has the resources to do so. And it will order that development based on their perception of projected profitability and strategic value. Starting with whatever ranks highest on that perceived-value scale, of course, and working their way down as their resources allow. Nikon has introduced tons of stuff this year, including: 8 P&S cameras, D40/D40x, D300, D3, several kit lenses, one or two good zooms, and some pro primes. But they can't do everything at once!

Nikon is not in the business of serving everyone. No business ever is. Nikon is in the business of serving everyone it can profitably serve, since its prime objective (pun intended) is to stay alive. So if the attention they give your specific needs is not enough for you, then you have three choices only: make your market segment more attractive, adapt to their priorities, or simply buy someone else's gear. Do whatever is best for you.



Oct 06, 2007 at 10:16 PM
1              3              6       7       end




FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1              3              6       7       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account