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Archive 2007 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

cogitech
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p.2 #1 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

(By low light, I assume no flash is allowed, otherwise this discussion is pretty moot).

Of the cameras available today, I would immediately choose the 1D MkIII for low light photography. *Usable* ISO6400 is a *huge* advantage, IMO. No other camera that I know of can offer that. And when I say usable, I mean usable. I downloaded a 1D MkIII ISO6400 file from the internet and it wasn't too bad at all. Once I ran it through Neat Image, it looks like an ISO200 shot from a 10D. No joke. What RF can do that?

Now, I own a 5D and it is at least a stop better than my 20D for noise, but *usable* ISO6400 is just insane. What this means to me for low-light photography is that I could stop down a bit, improving both DOF and overall IQ (without the need for flash). Instead of noisy ISO1600 shots with no DOF @ f/1.4, I'd rather have relatively clean ISO6400 shots at f2.8. Sensitivity, this third piece of the exposure triad puzzle, is becoming more and more manipulable than analog photography ever afforded us.

If there was a RF that could do 6400 (clean) then I'd choose that for all the other reasons people mentioned, but it simply does not exist, AFAIK.

Jun 05, 2007 at 01:45 PM

Rob Riley
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p.2 #2 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

Andi Dietrich wrote:
What has Cartier-Bresson to do with the M8? HCB used the Leica because it was the best tool at the time. The early Leica was reliable and silent, optics were of high quality and you could load the best film available. He also knew his job. I was told he had his camera always with him and often set the exposure and distance he needed when he entered a room or a new situation. That was the way to get best results in that time, though we have better technologie available and the SLR is the best, fastest tool now (IMO)
At the time HCB became a Myth most turned away from Leica and choosed to go with the Nikon F and rangefinder cameras did never again have the importance of the good old time.

Anyway I thought the discussion was about rangefinder in general, not the Leica.

I trust the HCB question was rhetorical, as you answered it in your own way yourself
The Nikon RF you describe came about because of the existence of Leica, as did the popularity of 35mm film. FWIW. one of HCB's last photographs was taken of him while he was holding a fairly simple P&S film Leica, and like it or lump it, he is strongly associated with the Leica name and RF's in general. He passed away in August 2004

As to camera speed, i think you are right about SLR's, but you can make a RF as fast prefocussed. A RF requires more of you than an SLR, and it is a question that in the end comes down to your preferences. Specifically low light is best left to high iso able cameras, fast low lit streetshooting aside.

And as to variable light streetshooting specifically, i think the idea of hauling a 5D or 1d Mkiii around the streets in an attempt to remain invisible in a crowd is more than a little humorous, if a little silly; as always, horse for courses. More than once, a grainy B&W street image conveys as much of the art of photography than a flat plastic digital image, no matter how noise free.

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:00 PM

cogitech
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p.2 #3 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

I don't remember Andi saying anything about a Nikon RF...

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:05 PM

cogitech
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p.2 #4 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

Rob Riley wrote:
I trust the HCB question was rhetorical, as you answered it in your own way yourself
The Nikon RF you describe came about because of the existence of Leica, as did the popularity of 35mm film. FWIW. one of HCB's last photographs was taken of him while he was holding a fairly simple P&S film Leica, and like it or lump it, he is strongly associated with the Leica name and RF's in general. He passed away in August 2004.

So, you're saying that he was a fanboy, too?

As to camera speed, I think you are right about SLR's, but you can make a RF as fast prefocussed. A RF requires more of you than an SLR, and it is a question that in the end comes down to your preferences. Specifically low light is best left to high iso able cameras, fast low lit streetshooting aside.

Somehow we are now talking about street shooting, not just low-light shooting in general.

And as to variable light streetshooting specifically, i think the idea of hauling a 5D or 1d Mkiii around the streets in an attempt to remain invisible in a crowd is more than a little humorous, if a little silly...

"Ballsy" not silly. If I shoot someone with my 5D and they know it, it is up to them to deal with it how they may and I'm willing to deal with that. But I've never been one to run away. Horses.

More than once, a grainy B&W street image conveys as much of the art of photography than a flat plastic digital image, no matter how noise free.

True for B&W, but just as many times I have seen chroma noise completely ruin a colour photo.

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:17 PM

Rob Riley
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p.2 #5 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

cogitech wrote:
I don't remember Andi saying anything about a Nikon RF...

Andi Dietrich wrote:
At the time HCB became a Myth most turned away from Leica and choosed to go with the Nikon F and rangefinder cameras did never again have the importance of the good old time.

HCB did for sometime have a Nikon RF, an S series
but i cant remember if it was FF or one of the 1/2 frame versions
with Andi's 'almost' perfect english, thats what i took him to mean, but maybe not

anyway feel free to dispute HCB's Leica relationship, leica i could care less :0

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:19 PM

cogitech
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p.2 #6 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

Rob Riley wrote:
cogitech wrote:
I don't remember Andi saying anything about a Nikon RF...

Andi Dietrich wrote:
At the time HCB became a Myth most turned away from Leica and choosed to go with the Nikon F and rangefinder cameras did never again have the importance of the good old time.

HCB did for sometime have a Nikon RF, an S series
but i cant remember if it was FF or one of the 1/2 frame versions
with Andi's 'almost' perfect english, thats what i took him to mean, but maybe not

anyway feel free to dispute HCB's Leica relationship, leica i could care less :0

What he meant was:

"At the time HCB became a Myth, most [people] turned away from Leica and [chose] to go with the Nikon F. [R]angefinder cameras never again had the importance of the good old [days]."

Sorry if I am wrong, Andi.

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:27 PM

Rob Riley
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p.2 #7 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

glad to see you know what he thinks
and where to put the "." instead of maybe a "/"
great minds and all that

Jun 05, 2007 at 02:34 PM

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p.2 #8 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

i think the idea of hauling a 5D or 1d Mkiii around the streets in an attempt to remain invisible in a crowd is more than a little humorous, if a little silly;

I take a 5D almost everywhere. I just got back from the pub with it. It is wearing an Olympus 28mm f2.8, which is almost a pancake lens. It isn't significantly less 'invisible' than an M8. There are lots of small lenses you can use on it to keep it unobtrusive and light, like the Oly f2 and f2.8 wides, Nikkor 35/f2, and f1.4 50's, f2 or f2.8 wides from Leica, Zeiss etc.. The conspicuity argument is an anachronistic myth.

This is not an especially low-light image:

BTW, although I have always loved this excellent image, there are a couple of interesting technical issues. First, the shutter speed was not fast enough to freeze the jumping man. Whether the visible motion is preferable to a surreal impression of levitation is a matter of taste. Secondly, the print was pretty crude. You can see easily how the tops of the roofs and the figure of the man have much deeper blacks than the rest of the image because they have been burned in by hand. I like my b+w darkroom tricks more invisible than my camera. If I had been printing this in the darkroom, let alone from Photoshop, this print would have gone in the bin. But the picture itself is awesome, and these technical details don't detract from the art of the photographer in anticipating it.

Jun 05, 2007 at 03:14 PM

Rob Riley
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p.2 #9 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

to descend into street photography further, as the light conditions are more or less variable, in europe often quite dim, various photographers had different defences for this. HCB used the then small innocuous Leica to hide from the crowd.

He would bind the name and chrome with black tape and take every opportunity to capture the human condition unaware that a camera was nearby. He favoured fast B&W film and sharp lenses and formed a style he called the decisive moment, which 'that' image illustrates. He said,

"I prowled the streets all day, feeling very strung-up and ready to pounce, ready to 'trap' life.

As a result of the pressure for speed that might be in low light, his film and camera requirement were preset for the fastest low light possibility, and this is the relationship to this thread, and this is the myth that Andi speaks of. These settings were often less than the ideal for the moment, and as he did little processing himself saying that his images were cropped in the camera, its pretty much wysiwyg.

http://www.answers.com/topic/henri-cartier-bresson

"He believed in composing his photographs in his camera and not in the darkroom, showcasing this belief by having nearly all his photographs printed only at full-frame and completely free of any cropping or other darkroom manipulation -- indeed, he emphasized that the entire negative had been used by extending the area reproduced on the print to include a thick black border around the frame."

There are people over at LUF who knew him and who used to come here, that could personally speak more about his techniques and processing.

Edited by Rob Riley on Jun 06, 2007 at 12:55 AM GMT

Jun 05, 2007 at 03:53 PM

AndrewTee
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p.2 #10 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

I've thought about an "inconspicuous" camera for a while now, but I don't really buy that argument anymore. If I really wanted an inconspicuous camera I would use a cell phone. Today, you see a lot of DSLRs around. They may not be "inconspicuous" but they don't cause people to run either.

Jun 05, 2007 at 03:54 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.2 #11 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

Rob Riley wrote:

with Andi's 'almost' perfect english,

english - with one E blease

Jun 05, 2007 at 04:31 PM

DaveEP
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p.2 #12 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

The fact is the best low light camera is quite simply the one you have with you. If I have both with me, I may choose the Canon over the Leica. However, I am more likely to carry the Leica because I can get my entire kit in a bag smaller than my Canon and 24-70L will fit in to.

There is no specific brand loyalty here, but I shoot the M8 a lot more than I shoot my Canon now, simply because it's the one that easiest to bick up as I walk out the door, and carry around with me all day long without straining my back/shoulders.

Jun 05, 2007 at 04:44 PM

brainiac
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p.2 #13 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

>...then you have the absurd gaul...

I've met a few absurd gauls, but I've never 'had' one. Speaking of absurd gauls, did anyone ever see that film footage of HCB dancing ballet in the street with his camera and his beret like an excited whippet? So much for inconspicuity. Someone must have put speed in his café. ;-)

>...to attest to how you were abused, that you were threatened with legal action while you ...
"remained polite and rational as is my habit"
well when did you give that up ... just recently?

I think Andi or Paul might remember the way I was spoken to in the M8 thread. Also a couple of members PM'ed and emailed me threatening, amongst other things to sue me. None of my statements in that thread have been deleted, and I stand by every one of them. I neither earned it, nor reacted to it. There is nothing that I have said on this thread that is impolite to you personally, and I am certainly not the first person to have likened Leica's M following to a religious cult. I don't think M's are very competitive cameras any more, but criticism of them frequently leads to flamewars, presumably because I haven't paid due reverence to the cult of the red dot. There's no need to take it personally. I have my views and you have yours. Let's all be cool.

Jun 05, 2007 at 04:55 PM

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p.2 #14 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

As much as I like rangefinders, I will not fail to admit that they are not perfect. I am definitely not a big fan of Leica, but do love rangefinders. I know what the Leica glass is capable of and have a lot of admiration for what they offer. My personal favorite is Contax G2/Zeiss. But this does not mean Leica is bad. It's just personal preference.

Leica, while amazing with it's optics and overall results, is a bit overpriced. The leica camera (M6) is well built. They offer lenses like the f1.0 and f1.4 aperture primes that Zeiss never did for the G2 system. However, Leica dissapointed with the price and performance of the M8 - it seems like they decided to use the name and the history behind the M8 a little too much to their advantage. They are hurting bad now and i hope the lesson sticks.

I would recommend the Contax G2 system - which I feel is much better than Leica. If I had to buy a rangefinder today, I would get back to the Contax G2 system in a heartbeat, even though it is discontinued.

That said, I sold my entire RF system last year and decided to stick with Canon D-SLR's with converted Zeiss N mount lenses. This way, I spoil myself with the best of both worlds. Unmatched Zeiss performance in an unbeatable D-SLR setup.If you want low light, get yourself a Canon D-SLR and either get the canon EF primes like the 50mm, 85mm f1.2 or 24mm or 35mm f1.4 and get the converted N mount zooms and you simply will not have the opportunity to want more.

Jun 05, 2007 at 05:12 PM

DaveEP
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p.2 #15 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

brainiac wrote:
I am certainly not the first person to have likened Leica's M following to a religious cult.

This maybe true, but it keeps getting repeated and repeated and repeated for no good reason. All brands suffer from the same problem, whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, or whether you are one of those "cult members" or not. The fact is that Canon & Nikon have just as much 'cult' following as any other brand. Some will say that's because the cameras justify it, but of course others disagree, and chose to follow some other brand.

brainiac wrote:
The conspicuity argument is an anachronistic myth.

I beg to differ on this. While I was travelling, I was walking around with some other folks who were carrying smaller DSLRs, including the XTi and Nikon D40. These are both pretty small cameras, even by Leica M standards. When we were shooting in the street, the DSLRs drew attention from passers by every time, whereas no one looked at my M8. I was not the only one to notice this, the other guys did too. One of them was even blacked out, so you can't says that it's the logos that did it.

For sure, the lens can play a big part in this, but these guys had very modest lenses too, so that's not the only reason. The only person who paid any real attention to me while walking around was another Leica (M7) owner - and of course we got chatting.

brainiac wrote:
I don't think M's are very competitive cameras any more, but criticism of them frequently leads to flamewars, presumably because I haven't paid due reverence to the cult of the red dot.

The whole problem is that there are no right or wrong answers to many, most or even all the issues that come up. People tend to see things from their own brand loyalty point of view. There is no reverence due to any brand, but realise peope get just as upset when some one criticises Canon and Nikon too, and you only have to see the flames that go back and forth between the two forums.

I have no brand loyalty as such, and I refuse to be in any cult for the 'cult' itself. I don't buy substandard equipment because of a brand, and I never will. If I happen to use a piece of equipment, it's because it's the tool I want to use for the task in hand having considered most (if not all) of the alternatives.

As far as equipment being over priced, that is of course a matter of opinion for each individual. You could say 'Car A' is over priced compared to 'Car B' but people still buy both quite happily. Something is only over priced if you either can't afford it, or don't want to pay that much 'out of choice'. Canon 1 Series (and even the 30D & 5D) are way over priced in many peoples' opinion, as is the D200 & D2x, so Leica are not the only company selling at what the market will bear. That, after all is their whole reason for being there.

The 5D (and others) can produce some great results, but it's not the right camera for me when I want to go walkabout. I have Canon equipment and use it too, but again, it's not always the right kit. Canon is better for some tasks, and not others, but I don't want to be limited by the size of some one else's wallet, or their ability, or inability, to extract the same enjoyment out of my choice of kit.

A recent vacation was the best 'photography' vacation I have had for many years, simply because all I carried around day-in day-out was my small M8 kit. The prints (large - up to A2) from it are stunning, and I very much doubt that I would have got noticably better results from any Canon (or nikon etc) kit you care to mention.

I do wish that people could discuss photography without feeling the need to bash anything and everything they don't own or aspire to own. That goes for all people, all brands, all wallet sizes etc etc etc.... and is not aimed at any individual, whether real or imaginary!

Jun 05, 2007 at 06:39 PM

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p.2 #16 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

The decisive moment:

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Jun 05, 2007 at 10:13 PM

marcwilson
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p.2 #17 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

I think in some ways it's great to be passionate about the gear you use as if you feel an affinity with it, and undertand it fully then you will be able to use it to its full extent and thus allow your picture taking abilities to work to their full extent without being held back by your equipment.

Above this though is using the right type of equipment for different shooting situations.
There are some where dslr is best and some where 54 film is what is needed and in between that, for me, medium format film and within that the slr option or the rangefinder option. Or some situations where you need two or three different systems with you at the same time.

For the (35mm) digital cameras there is a place for both the 5d and the M8 with each offering great advantages over the other. With the M8 unfortunately at present there is no other option so if you want a rangefinder for your shooting and wish to shoot digital that is what it needs to be..wether the leica m8 is any better than a zeiss or nikon or contax digital rangefinder we just can't tell right now (or ever perhaps) but if I ever thought a rangefinder would suit my needs more than my 5d (which on many occasions I do) I would get the leica...not because of the red dot but because its a rangefinder...unfortunately I can't afford it right now!

Anyway...enjoy shooting.

Marc

Jun 05, 2007 at 10:45 PM

brainiac
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p.2 #18 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

> However, I am more likely to carry the Leica because I can get my entire kit in a bag smaller than my Canon and 24-70L will fit in to.

That's exactly how I feel when I look at my 5D and 200 f1.8 next to the M8. The M8 is _so_ much smaller and lighter. It's incredible how they do it. You would be crazy to take the Canon ;-)

Perhaps it's the Canon 24-70 that's causing your size/weight problem. Maybe you should think about a Leica R 35mm, or a cheap Zeiss, Olympus, Nikon or Canon one.

If the M8 supported zooming, which it doesn't, I am sure Leica could match the 24-70 with an 18 to 55 f1.4 zoom. You could slip it into a trouser pocket and nobody would notice. I say f1.4 because the M has a two stop iso disadvantage. It makes more sense to compare a 5D with a 35mm f2.8 to an M8 with a 28mm f1.4. But Leica don't make a 28 f1.4. Nikon did but it only works on the Canons, not the M's. The best you can do at HCB's _only_ focal length is 28 f2, which gives the Canon either a 3 stop low-light advantage with a 35 f1.4, or size weight equivalence and a one stop advantage (with a nice 35 f2.8, take your pick from Canon/Nikon/Zeiss/Leica/Olympus/Pentax etc). To match the focal lengths of the 24-70 f2.8 on a Leica you could start with the new Tri-elmar, but it's only f4: hopeless for low-light with the poor high-iso performance. So the best you can do to match the Canon standard zoom in low light is to bring a 21 f2.8 (-2), 28 f2 (-1), 35 f1.4 (0), and 50 f1.4 (0). How do those two alternatives compare for size and weight now? And think of the COST!!! We haven't even mentioned image stabilisation.

The fact is that the M8 is a poor choice for low light. The 1.3 crop factor makes the absence of 28mm or 24mm f1.4 a problem. The 35 f1.4 equates to a 45mm, and the 50 f1.0 equates to a 65mm, which is not an advantage for general photography. And with the Canons you have the choice: EITHER equivalent size/weight and a small speed advantage, OR a huge 3 stop advantage. AND/OR image stabilisation. Decide on the night. At a fraction of the cost.

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Jun 06, 2007 at 09:19 AM

DaveEP
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p.2 #19 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

Ok - let me re-phrase that. The M8 kit with multiple lenses fits in a bag that only my 1Ds2 and 50/1.8 will fit in to. There. I don't want a 5D and never have, so there is little point telling me that the 5D is smaller than the 1Ds2. Canon vs Canon. Personal preference? Yes! BTW - I have used a 5D for quite a while, and dislike it. Other poeple are entitled to a different point of view.

As far as the M8 having a so called 2 stop disadvantage, it all depends on what you are after. I much prefer the B&W shots from the M8 at high ISO than the B&W shots from the Canon at high ISO. Personal choice? Yes! I happen to like B&W.

The M8 is much easier to focus in low light than the Canon is, at least in my opionion. You may have a different opinion, and that's fine, fortunately we live in a country that still (mostly) allows different opinions.

All these things prove is that there is no single answer to any given problem or question.

Is it the 'Red Dot' that makes me say these things? No. Am I a cult member of the Leica club? No. I am merely looking at the same things, but from a slightly different point of view.

I choose not to come up with all the reasons why the 5D is not the right tool for the job 'I' want to do, but there are others seem intensly focused on telling every one else why the M8 is not the right tool.

I am not 'for' the M8 and 'against' the 5D. Far from it. Both cameras do an excellent job. I just happen to chose one over the other . If you think that makes me a red dot cult memeber, what does that make a 5D owner? A 5D cult member?

Let's face it, if you have both tools available (or even more) you can pick the right tool for the right job. If all you have is a single tool, then that's fine, but the 5D is not the holy grail of photography, regardless of what Brainiac or others choose to say. Oh, and BTW - neither is the M8! There are no holy grails in this stuff, only personal perference and no amount of too and frow of personal opinions, for or against any brand or model will change that.

Let's change the way we phrase stuff in future. Instead of saying 'Model A' has a stop disadvantage (which is being critical of a Model A), why not say that 'Model B' has a 2 stop advantage (which is praise for one without directly criticising the other)?

The whole reason people get defensive is because of criticism of one item, rather than being complimentary about another.

Edited by DaveEP on Jun 06, 2007 at 11:48 AM GMT

Jun 06, 2007 at 10:31 AM

brainiac
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p.2 #20 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

> ...The 5D is not the holy grail of photography, regardless of what Brainiac or others choose to say. Oh, and BTW - neither is the M8!

I thoroughly agree, regardless of what I choose to say ;-)

Please note that all my efforts to compare the two prominent low-light SLR and rangefinder options have referred to specific system features and usage, not personal preference or feelings.

Jun 06, 2007 at 11:47 AM

DaveEP
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p.2 #21 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

....and one more thing to think about....

If the tool that produces the best "technical result" is not the one that fits your hand and method of working, is it actually the right/best tool for the job?

Jun 06, 2007 at 11:53 AM

fourfa
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p.2 #22 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

[makes popcorn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Jun 06, 2007 at 05:13 PM

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p.2 #23 · Are range-finders still best for low-light?

fourfa wrote:
[makes popcorn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

This forum just cracks me up. The entertainment value is simply hard to beat.
Thanks for that

Jun 07, 2007 at 06:56 PM


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