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Archive 2007 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

JohnnyGCanon
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p.16 #1 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Tentacle wrote:
Drfl wrote:

[...] I am guessing that the R&D efforts are focused on the 5d upgrade instead, since the 40d is only 1 year old and the 5d is 18 months old.

But the 5D has no competition. There is nothing, not even close, that matches full frame for that price. That's entirely different for the 30D, which is getting its rear handed to itself.

Ye gods, does this place echo

The 30D is only a warmed over 20D, so in a way the 30D is 30 months old. At least the sensor is.

I know it is wishful thinking, but please, please, Canon, put a re-designed 1DIII sensor with 4 channel output and DIGIC III in the 40D and make it kick the 10 mpixel competition, don't warm it over again, just to catch up with, instead of pass, the competitors.
I sure agree with all you said. When you say "re-designed 1DIII sensor", are you saying 1.3 X like the 1DIII? That's what I would like to see but would also like to see the EF-S lens still work somehow. I would hate to see them go away and I don't think Canon would anyway.

You probably meant to make it 1.6X!

Feb 28, 2007 at 05:06 PM

Gerry Szarek
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p.16 #2 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Well my 10D still shoots just fine, my upgrade path requirements are ISO 3200 (min), 45 pt AF, and 3FPS. Ideally in a 5D size package with FF, so I continue to wait, I will replace my 10D with either the shutter dies (currently +40K accuations) or it gets trashed by the kids, then I will upgrade (currently my camera of choice is the 5D, if I have lots of money the 1dmkIII meets my needs, however the 30D is NOT an option I never went for this EF-S mount).

Gerry

Feb 28, 2007 at 05:09 PM

Tentacle
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p.16 #3 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

JohnnyGCanon wrote:

[...]

I sure agree with all you said. When you say "re-designed 1DIII sensor", are you saying 1.3 X like the 1DIII? That's what I would like to see but would also like to see the EF-S lens still work somehow. I would hate to see them go away and I don't think Canon would anyway.

You probably meant to make it 1.6X!

Nope, I didn't mean 1.6x crop.

I love to shoot available light/low light stuff, so to me high ISO is important. I've just seen ISO6400 shots from a pre-production 1DIII (See this topic: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/513407 ) and the IQ is simply stunning, in terms of low noise, it looks incredible.

Now, if Canon crams 10 Mpixel into 1.6x crop, then it sacrifices one third of the sensor surface, compared to 1.3x crop. APS-H has 50% more sensor surface area than APS-C. With less surface for the same amount of pixels (at the same technology) you can't expect the same high ISO performance.

So, if it were up to me, then Canon should re-work the 1DIII sensor and reduce the number of output channels from 8 to 4, keep the pixel count and the size the same and leave out the second DIGIC III chip, so you'd have a 40D with 1.28x crop, 10.1 mpixel, 5 FPS and ISO6400. Yes, that'd kill EF-S. Canon is committed to full frame anyway, for everything except entry level. Sooner or later, EF-S will be relegated to the xxD series.

A 40D with those specs would crush the D200 and K10D. But let me stress once again: This is just me in wishful thinking mode!

Feb 28, 2007 at 05:23 PM

danmitchell
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p.16 #4 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Tentacle brings up an interesting perspective. It would be interesting for Canon to present the mythical 40D (or whatever might follow the 30D) as a low-end 1DIII, with a slightly less capable 1.3x sensor and faster speed.

There are some problems with that scenario, but I don't know how serious they would turn out to be. Canon would still be marketing an 8MP camera in a segment dominated by 10MP camera, and even undercut by 10MP bodies one segment below - e.g. 400D.

In addition, there would be the wide angle issue.

Dan

Feb 28, 2007 at 05:52 PM

Tentacle
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p.16 #5 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

danmitchell wrote:

[...]

In addition, there would be the wide angle issue.

Well, if the rumours about an EF 12-24L are true, then it won't. You'd get the FF equivalent of 15.3 mm on 1.28x crop. That's better than 10 on 1.6x crop. Would that be wide enough kind Sir?

Feb 28, 2007 at 06:12 PM

Photonik
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p.16 #6 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

I agree with darknite. This is utterly absurd. I bet almost anything if the 30d had an extra 2 megapixels, the total package would have been heralded as a "major, serious, upgrade", but instead, having a larger screen, selectable-in-the-viewfinder ISO, selectable shooting speed, spot metering, larger buffers and quicker response time, and subtly improved controls and custom functions, it was considered a complete non-update, EVEN THOUGH almost everyone agrees that the move from 8 to 10MP is almost insignificant. This total whinefest about "now I cant upgrade my 10D!" is so silly, especially when every charge levelled against the 10d has ALREADY been addressed in the 30D (if not the 20D!). I'm also totally unsympathetic to the cries of "The 1DsII has been out for two years, I want another one, waaaah!" That camera is still THE BEST STUDIO 35mm CAMERA AND HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMPETITION! Really, is the 1dsII seriously causing you any real-world, photography-limiting problems that are so critical that you are justified in feeling robbed by Canon? Should there be updates to excellent equipment that has no competition and almost nothing but praise from its users just because a time interval has passed? People need to stop crying about how they have been horribly wronged by camera manufacturer's because they didnt custom build equipment for them every few months.

Whew, ok, got that out, please still be my friend

Oh, and Ira, definitely bust that k1000 out! I was looking at someone's family pictures taken last year with a k1000 the other day and was blown away by their quality.

Feb 28, 2007 at 06:29 PM

Stefan Ebert
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p.16 #7 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

The 40d will imo still be a 1.6 crop cam. Otherwise all those EF-S lenses would be suitable for the 400d only, which does not make much sense as 400d´s are mainly sold with kit lenses only.

The 40d with 1.3 crop is the most unlikely rumour i have heard for quite some time.

Feb 28, 2007 at 06:41 PM

flannmic
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p.16 #8 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

I'm sorry, but I'm confused as to what the "wide-angle issue" would be. Going from a 1.6 CF sensor to a ~1.3 CF sensor will help the wide-angle shooters. It's the sports and wildlife photographers that might moan when their 300mm lens goes from a 480mm equivalent to a less than 390mm equivalent. Am I missing something?

Feb 28, 2007 at 06:44 PM

Andrew Dale
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p.16 #9 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

i don't particularly understand the whole "all those EF-S lenses" problem.

maybe i miscounted, but aren't there only 5 EF-S lenses? 20 times that are EF.

i see no reason by EF-S couldn't be for only the xxxD series.

but like you said Tentacle, wishful thinking :-)

Feb 28, 2007 at 06:51 PM

danmitchell
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p.16 #10 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

The wide angle issue is that you can't use the EF-S wides like the 10-22mm lens, thus you can't get as wide (as least not with Canon EF, etc. lenses) as you can either with FF or 1.6x crop.

And, yes, if a rumored 12-24mm EF lens exists that would change things.

Dan

BTW: I'm not betting on a 1.3x replacement for the 30D, but I've been wrong before.

Edited by danmitchell on Feb 28, 2007 at 11:11 AM GMT

Feb 28, 2007 at 07:08 PM

Drfl
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p.16 #11 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

To further elaborate on the R&D efforts on the 5d, competition does drive business, but so does fear of competition. Additionally, any strides made on other products (Digic III Processor) will benefit other product lines. Atari once made the mistake of thinking that they had no competition when they released their console system. Nowadays kids don't even know who Atari is.

Feb 28, 2007 at 07:09 PM

Tentacle
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p.16 #12 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Stefan Ebert wrote:

[...]

The 40d with 1.3 crop is the most unlikely rumour i have heard for quite some time.

It's pure and 100% speculation. Don't let anyone fool you into believing that this is anything outside of the What If Realm. Canon could do it. Will they? We don't know.

The speculation is based on official words from Brian Worley, dSLR product manager for Canon Europe, who said that Canon will eventually move to full frame, except for entry level. That means that, sooner or later, the xxD series will drop EF-S compatibility. That may happen with the 40D, then again, it may not happen untill the 50D. Maybe the xxD line will morph into another market segment and disappear in its current form, who knows?

Like any format, APS-H size has its pros and cons. What makes APS-H so interesting is that it is the biggest size that can be produced in single lithography passes. Anything bigger needs multiple exposures per layer. So for a large volume price-competitive market segment, like the prosumer xxD range, it would fit well, because it's the biggest slab of silicon that can be made relatively cheaply. It's a sweet-spot, production wise, 50% bigger in area than APS-C.

Moving to APS-H would definately differentiate the 40D from all the rest of the 10 Mpixel prosumer cams like the D80, D200 and K10D. It would also prepare a lot of users for the full frame for the masses future that is said to come.

Yes, it'd kill EF-S for xxD. That will happen at some point anyway. I'm not too impressed by the argument that the EF-S line is important to Canon. Other than the 10-22, 60 Macro and 17-55 IS the majority of the EF-S line-up consists of kit lenses.

Feb 28, 2007 at 07:19 PM

darknite
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p.16 #13 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

If someone is limited by the 1DsII, why are they even trying to shoot digital? Just trash it on B&S or feeBay, and get a Sinar P2 8x10 and a scitex drum scanner.

Edit: Thats some quality that Canon couldn't match with the 1DsII, but bring your checkbook and a 2nd or 3rd mortgage, it aint cheap. Or easy, or portable, and doesn't have as big a selection of lenses, and the film backs are not nearly as easy to handle as CF cards. Did I mention its frame per second rate isn't? More like 1 frame per several minutes, or even an hour.

Photonik wrote:
Really, is the 1dsII seriously causing you any real-world, photography-limiting problems that are so critical that you are justified in feeling robbed by Canon?

Feb 28, 2007 at 07:25 PM

fred_jb
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p.16 #14 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

I'm convinced the new APS-H sensor will be re-used in some form, but I think not in an XXD body.

IMO much more likely is a low end XD, which being 1.3 would not directly compete with the current 5D too much, but would be very strong competition for the Nikon 200. It would also suit many XXD upgraders who don't necessarily want to go FF but want better high ISO performance and other refinements.

I would expect a later high end XD body to replace the 5D with a FF version of the new sensor at about 15MP, but probably only after the 1Ds goes up to 20+MP.

That would leave the XXD range to be sorted with a 40D which following past practice could be simply a faster 400D in a bigger body with additional controls, but the same or very similar sensor - as in 300d v 10D, and 350D v 20/30D.

The 400D as an entry level would be a compelling buy against the competition. I see no point in producing a stripped down lower res body (4000D) just to get down to the dumbed down entry level of the competition, when we all know the entry level will be up to 400D levels in a year or two anyway.

Hope this makes as much sense to Canon as it does to me, because I would really like that 1.3 XD camera!

Fred

Edited by fred_jb on Mar 01, 2007 at 01:20 PM GMT

Feb 28, 2007 at 10:05 PM

Rusty1
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p.16 #15 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Tentacle wrote:
Well, if the rumours about an EF 12-24L are true, then it won't. You'd get the FF equivalent of 15.3 mm on 1.28x crop. That's better than 10 on 1.6x crop. Would that be wide enough kind Sir?

The EF 12-24L is a whole new can of worms. It would be sweet on 1.6 crop ( I seldon shoot the 10-22 wider than 12 ) and give the 1.28 the wide angle it doesn't have. Needed for 1.28 to be used as an all around camera. But it would have to measure up to the demands of the expected new 1Ds. That would be very exacting considering Canon's wide angle history.

If they go 1.28 and if a 12-24L, That's just a little too far out on the limb for me to crawl. Fun to think about, but doubt we will see it.

Mar 01, 2007 at 01:17 AM

24Peter
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p.16 #16 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Drfl wrote:
To further elaborate on the R&D efforts on the 5d, competition does drive business, but so does fear of competition. Additionally, any strides made on other products (Digic III Processor) will benefit other product lines. Atari once made the mistake of thinking that they had no competition when they released their console system. Nowadays kids don't even know who Atari is.

Canon's competition (vis a vis a 5D camera) is itself. It must continually top it's last offering to its customers or there will be no incentive for those customers to upgrade. And as you so eloquently pointed out, companies that sit around waiting and reacting to offerings from other companies are doomed to lose their lead. Given the current state of the "FF" DSLR market Canon may be able to get away with several years of inaction. But eventually the market will catch up with them. So it's their job to stay ahead of the competition; not react to what's out there or on the way.

Mar 01, 2007 at 01:48 AM

JON VAN DAAL
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p.16 #17 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

The wide angle issue is that you can't use the EF-S wides like the 10-22mm lens, thus you can't get as wide (as least not with Canon EF, etc. lenses) as you can either with FF or 1.6x crop.

How wide do you want to go on a 1.6 crop - why not try the Sigma 8mm Fisheye.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=440665&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
Anyone used one of these yet?

Mar 01, 2007 at 02:07 AM

gml1
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p.16 #18 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

fred_jb wrote:
I'm convinced the new APS-H sensor will be re-used in some form, but I think not in an XXD body.

IMO much more likely is a low end XD, which being 1.3 would not directly compete with the current 5D too much, but would be very strong competition for the Nikon 200.
...

Makes sense to me. The price of the XXD line has been steadily going down and I don't see Canon breaking this trend. I’m sure they will price the next XXD body (which will be 1.6x, btw) at either the current or even at a lower price level. We are thus seeing how the price level once occupied by the 10D and the 20D is gradually getting vacant. Is Canon going to miss the opportunity to offer something at that price level (or may be slightly higher - say $1,500-1,800)? I don’t know, but if they do, this would most probably be a 1.3x body.

Mar 01, 2007 at 02:49 AM

Paul Schmidt
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p.16 #19 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

Tentacle wrote:
Stefan Ebert wrote:

[...]

The 40d with 1.3 crop is the most unlikely rumour i have heard for quite some time.

It's pure and 100% speculation. Don't let anyone fool you into believing that this is anything outside of the What If Realm. Canon could do it. Will they? We don't know.

The speculation is based on official words from Brian Worley, dSLR product manager for Canon Europe, who said that Canon will eventually move to full frame, except for entry level. That means that, sooner or later, the xxD series will drop EF-S compatibility. That may happen with the 40D, then again, it may not happen untill the 50D. Maybe the xxD line will morph into another market segment and disappear in its current form, who knows?

Like any format, APS-H size has its pros and cons. What makes APS-H so interesting is that it is the biggest size that can be produced in single lithography passes. Anything bigger needs multiple exposures per layer. So for a large volume price-competitive market segment, like the prosumer xxD range, it would fit well, because it's the biggest slab of silicon that can be made relatively cheaply. It's a sweet-spot, production wise, 50% bigger in area than APS-C.

Moving to APS-H would definately differentiate the 40D from all the rest of the 10 Mpixel prosumer cams like the D80, D200 and K10D. It would also prepare a lot of users for the full frame for the masses future that is said to come.

Yes, it'd kill EF-S for xxD. That will happen at some point anyway. I'm not too impressed by the argument that the EF-S line is important to Canon. Other than the 10-22, 60 Macro and 17-55 IS the majority of the EF-S line-up consists of kit lenses.

So what is the distance between the back of the lens, and the mirror? For years Konica built 35mm SLR cameras where the film to flange distance was 40mm, the shortest in the industry, the mirror actually shifted back while going up, so that there was clearance. This kind of technique might also work for Canon, so that a 1.3 crop or even a full frame might be able to use an EF-S lens.

Mar 01, 2007 at 03:06 AM

danmitchell
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p.16 #20 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

This kind of technique might also work for Canon, so that a 1.3 crop or even a full frame might be able to use an EF-S lens.

It is my understanding that mirror clearance is not the only issue. EF-S lenses project a smaller image circle that is not large enough to cover full frame. I think it may also be too small for 1.3x crop sensors.

Mar 01, 2007 at 04:20 AM

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