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Archive 2003 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

JohnM
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p.2 #1 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Reb,

I don't think there is anything wrong with my 10D, I think that just how the AF works. The AF point covers a larger area than it did in my Pro cameras & the AF points are not quite as sensitive.

I did a test of the 1D's & the 10D AF on a tripod focusing on the edge of some cereal boxes before I sold the 1D's.

If I moved the 1D's very slightly off the edge that is was focusing on, it immediately snapped in to a new focus. The 10D on the other hand, does not refocus on a new spot until I move it considerably farther.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like the 10D & I find it gives me better skin tone most of the time than either the 1D or 1Ds did & E-TTL works great with it.

I am hoping the next camera release will combine something like an eight megapixel sensor, about 5FPS & the 45 point AF, to me that would be the perfect camera.

-John

Oct 06, 2003 at 06:46 PM

Lunatique
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p.2 #2 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Man o' man, this is totally unexpected. Since I first started shooting in 2001, I kept telling myself that I was just a noobie amateur who only deserved a P&S consumer camera, and I was still years away from being able to justify a pro camera. I finally gathered enough courage to even think about the 10D this year, and now you guys are telling me 1D is justified. . .. My head spins. You people sure know how to talk someone's money out of his wallet!

But, really, you guys gave excellent points and advice.

JohnM- just out of curiosity, was there a significant difference between the 1D and the 1Ds other than the full-frame sensor?

Oct 06, 2003 at 06:52 PM

Peter de Weerdt
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p.2 #3 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

You people sure know how to talk someone's money out of his wallet! But, really, you guys gave excellent points and advice.

You shouldn't have asked that! Ha, now JohnM will talk you into the 1Ds ...

Peter

Oct 06, 2003 at 06:57 PM

rebel300
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p.2 #4 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

JohnM wrote:
Reb,

I don't think there is anything wrong with my 10D, I think that just how the AF works. The AF point covers a larger area than it did in my Pro cameras & the AF points are not quite as sensitive.

I did a test of the 1D's & the 10D AF on a tripod focusing on the edge of some cereal boxes before I sold the 1D's.

If I moved the 1D's very slightly off the edge that is was focusing on, it immediately snapped in to a new focus. The 10D on the other hand, does not refocus on a new spot until I move it considerably farther.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like the 10D & I find it gives me better skin tone most of the time than either the 1D or 1Ds did & E-TTL works great with it.

I am hoping the next camera release will combine something like an eight megapixel sensor, about 5FPS & the 45 point AF, to me that would be the perfect camera.

-John

i'm waiting for canon to come out with 8 mp...and a sensor that 'approaches' the fine hair detail of the 1ds...'approaches' would certainly be good enough for my tastes these days.

i've found with the 10d that it requires a lot more patience to fine focus..the 1d and that narrow line focus spoiled me...with the 10d i have to rely on the viewfinder to tell me if it zeroed in on the exact spot i intended or if it missed.
like you, i use the manually selected focus point center, but even though it shows focus lock, if i see a non-sharp intended target spot, i refocus and try again...it is agonizing on small areas that the 1d nailed 100% of the time.

All in all, since I don't shoot sports anymore, I have the patience and the time to get it right. With the Rebel, the view is so small, I can't tell very much regarding focus, although it seems reliable, but...but...I really haven't tested it out on a serious subject yet...basically the stupid thing is for my wife...a clever detour on my part to pave the way for a purchase of a major 10D upgrade or the rumored 3D. ROFL
The Reb

Oct 06, 2003 at 07:09 PM

Arka
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p.2 #5 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

People who use the 1D are going to recommend it. If I had dropped 3-5 grand on a camera, I would certainly feel attached to it, and that is completely understandable. Does the 1D/1Ds series of cameras feel better? Of course! The viewfinder is also just awesome! And, as I would expect, they perform better than a 10D in terms of framerate and overall responsiveness. As to image quality, I would want some proof from those who say that 10D image quality is inferior to the 1D, as that has not been my experience shooting on borrowed or rented units.

Given the stated advantages, is a 1D worth 2 10D's? My experience has convinced me otherwise.

I guess the features that you mentioned you would find desirable are the fast framerate and responsiveness. In these areas, the 10D is most definitely lacking. But you also need to justify those features you NEED with the difference in cost, and the relentless forward march of these technologies. The 1D is a 2 year old camera, and I would generally dispute those who claim that the newer cameras, even prosumer models like the 10D, have not been able to improve upon the 1D's imaging technology. I have not experienced this, and I would definitely want to see some posted images with close up crops before accepting such a claim, as I think you already have.

The 1 series bodies are definitely more rugged and more responsive than the 10D. No doubt about that. They are also much faster overall, and the AF system is superior. The inclusion of a spot meter is a very nice thing, but unless you are REALLY accustomed to having one, you can get away with center weighted or partial metering for a while. There are some very expensive, state-of-the-art rangefinder cameras out there with nothing but evaluative metering, and people still take awesome pictures with them! Moreover, if you are doing a lot of indoor/model work, you may need to pick up an external light meter/flash meter anyway.

At this time, I think the best thing to do is wait. I used borrowed equipment for some time to try and get a feel for these EOS-1 machines. I am hankering to upgrade to a 1-series body myself, but I have not been able to reproduce the evidence which shows me that the 1D is the equal of the 10D in image quality. Pixel count is also an issue here for me.

The 1Ds has image quality that is unreal, but at >$6000, that is a dream machine for the time being. However, I think it is definitely worth at least 4 10D's. But the 1D is not really of the same standard; it can't be, unless you assume that the technology has not evolved over the last 2 years.

I think that if you wait a few months and see what the recent 1D price drop means for the EOS lineup, you will be able to make a much better decision. But if you need something now, I think you should go with something inexpensive to get your feet wet in digital, and if the much rumored 1Dx/3D is released soon, you can dump your prosumer body at a slight loss and get something that is both cutting edge and professional quality.

Arka C.

Oct 06, 2003 at 07:22 PM

dhphoto
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p.2 #6 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

lordarka wrote:
I think you should go with something inexpensive to get your feet wet in digital, and if the much rumored 1Dx/3D is released soon, you can dump your prosumer body at a slight loss and get something that is both cutting edge and professional quality.
Arka C.

A-HA somebody finally agreed with ME!

OF COURSE the 1D is faster focusing, sturdier and better made, it was the top of the range pro canon SLR 2 years ago - the absolute pinnacle of it's day.

The 10D is built to a price but unless you REALLY need those features I would still rather have my extra 2 megapixels and 2 years extra development and take 1/50th of a second longer to focus.

But then I shoot advertising

Go buy a 300D and have some fun and then sell it in a while.

Oct 06, 2003 at 07:33 PM

Ben Horne
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p.2 #7 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

lordarka wrote:
People who use the 1D are going to recommend it. If I had dropped 3-5 grand on a camera, I would certainly feel attached to it, and that is completely understandable.

I recommended the 10D because it seems like it would better fit his needs, but keep in mind that most of the people who recommended the 1D in this thread own both the 1D and the 10D --- the 10D being purchased after the 1D. The 10D is indeed a very nice camera, but it is still a consumer camera.

This doesn't have to do with spending money and therefore being attached to the equipment. To tell you the truth, I don't even remember how much I paid for the 1D last summer. Once I buy a piece of equipment, I don't look at it as a pile of money. I see it as a tool. To me at least, it seems absurd to recommend a piece of equipment to someone else just because I spent a lot of money on it. I don't follow that logic.

If I could get away with using a 10D instead of a 1D, I'd be doing that. The fact is that the 1D is the best tool for the job for the type of photography I do (sports, limited landscape (mostly just for fun), zoo stuff, and other misc photography). I recommended the 10D in this case because it seemed like the better tool for the job.

Oct 06, 2003 at 08:28 PM

Paul Kierstead
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p.2 #8 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Ok, I am trying not to take the bait of "it is still a consumer camera", as if that means its imaging quality must suffer. It is a non-ruggedized, slowish (but not terribly slow) AF, lowish frame rate body with a limited buffer. The image quality is outstanding.

Outside of all that, you can argue the fine points of 1D vrs. 10D image quality all day, but the simple fact is that the image quality is close enough to argue all day; in short, image quality does not significantly favour one or the other in most situations.

Outside of very high speed action, if you can't take a quality photo with a 10D, you won't be able to take one with a 1D either. Having seen Luntique's work with a P&S, I am sure he (?) will take fabulous photo's with a 10D or a 1D.

Oct 07, 2003 at 01:30 AM

Ron Warren
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p.2 #9 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

People, the 10D is a fantastic camera, no doubt! I like mine. It is a better camera than my D-30 for sure. The images are top notch. I never said other wise. Tomorrow and the rest of the week I will use it as much as the 1D. I will be happy knowing that I have a much better second camera then I had this time last year in the D30. The image quality doesn't suffer at all for being a pro-sumer camera. It is like an act of God and I hope it get's better every 6 months.

I gladly spent $4500 for my 1D in July of last year. To think about getting this fantastic camera for $3200 almost makes me wet my pants. I think this is great news....for everybody. I don't feel any loss by paying the extra cash for my camera. I feel it was money well spent. Beats $27,000 for a Kodak 4 years ago. Thnak goodness I didn't give a chit about cameras then.
Some people like to think that if somebody defends an older camera or lens that we are feeling "chumped" by having spent more. That's simply not true. I would feel chumped missing out on the best equipment to be had if I could afford it.

I am not made of money. I work hard for some very serious jerks that control my fate by the cycle of the moons. I am only a few paychecks away from poverty just like most of us here. If I were to not have a job when I got back from vacation I would have to depend on my two cameras and the 1D would be my money camera. This is where I am coming from. A very base level of reality. If I had to make my living with one camera, the 1D would have to be it.

Get that 1D dude. You won't be sorry.

Oct 07, 2003 at 02:34 AM

Arka
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p.2 #10 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Ben,

First off, I have nothing but respect and admiration for the quality of work that you do, especially the material that appears on your website. Further, I agree with you in that these machines are all tools through which our creativity finds it's voice, and I certainly appreciate that idea.

With all due respect, however, I think you and some others are blowing a little out of proportion what I said here. I am not suggesting that the amount of money spent on a camera is the sole reason that people are recommending what they own, nor am I perjuring people for recommending what they did. If you note in my entire post, I also acknowledge and recognize the strengths of that particular camera. All I am saying is that, to the person who laid out considerable capital to acquire the features they needed in the 1D, those features obviously have value TO THEM. Based upon their experience and, one hopes, a careful assessment of the initial posters stated needs and desires, people will make a recommendation. But I DO think that some posters are going to be colored by the fact that they own one or both cameras, and while I did not suggest that this is the sole reason anyone makes a recommendation, it is rare to find the photographer who is not fond of his/her 'tools,' even if they are just that.

I have also extensively used both the 10D and the 1D myself. I love the body, and I agree that for sports photography, the 1D feature set is essential. BUT, I have a hard time believing the posters on here who are claiming that the 1D has superior image quality than the 10d. In my shooting experiences, this is just not true, and if they have found it to be the case, I want to see the what images were used to make that determination.

Let's face it; our equipment and the work it generates are the two tangible manifestations of our love for this art. While some, like yourself, may be completely dispassionate about the tools in which you have invested so much time, capital, and careful research acquiring, I am not always so sure about others here.

In any case, it's just a simple matter of personal preference in the end, and I hope that poor Lunatique will be able to sort through all this and figure out what to do.

Arka C.

Oct 07, 2003 at 06:36 AM

Lunatique
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p.2 #11 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

lordarka wrote:
and I hope that poor Lunatique will be able to sort through all this and figure out what to do.

Arka C.

*sigh* Not a clue. I keep reading reviews and forum discussions, and there are opposing opinions all over the place. For example, this thread over at Rob Galbraith's forum escalated into a 1D vs. 1Ds vs. 10D debate--and although all posters had great points made--it didn't really help illuminate jack #$it for me: http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB18&Number=151451&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Maybe I should just wait for the next 1D replacement that should be announced soon.

Oct 07, 2003 at 07:52 AM

Erin
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p.2 #12 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Yes, that was my advice at the beginning of this thread. I also mentioned that while there is action in your portfolio it is not fast. As we all know a lot of opinions (crap) abound on the net and sorting the wheat from the chaff is a challenge. Obviously you have good skills to capture what you have in your portfolio with a digital point and shoot. Any competent photographer can get proffesional results from a 10D

You mentioned in one posting that you would be keen to interact with your model and do bursts at 8 frames a second, well you would wind up with a hell of a lot of similar looking images! The 10D will give you 9 frames in 3 secs with a 14 second file write time using large fine jpegs. Just count, thousand one, thousand two, thousand three, times up! You could work with your model in this timeframe, with a pre arranged loose sequence. allowing for the write time.

I have never used a 1D but have plenty of experience with the camera it is based on the 1v. This baby could eat a roll of film real quick, but personally I rarely ever used that function. A machine gun keeps peoples heads down, a sniper kills them!
Think about what your shooting technique is (with a camera of course

)

Oh yes, manual focus in the studio, with sufficent DOF is faster than any AF!

Edited by Erin on Oct 08, 2003 at 10:16 PM GMT

Oct 07, 2003 at 09:50 AM

Kyle Yates
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p.2 #13 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Easy really to answer this question.

IF
you are a pro - whether full or part time

AND
you need fast fps + accurate fast focussing,

AND
you can earn the price of this camera within 6 months

THEN

BUY

The 1D -- even if you have to throw it away it will have paid for itself -- and it will still be a great camera 6 months from now.

ELSE

BUY

The 10D or even 300D and enjoy the raucus in 6 months time as people gnash their teeth at a newer, better and cheaper model. It's inconceivable that Canon will just let this camera die a slow lingering death .

END.

What with the UEFA championship (European Nations football - soccer to US readers - championships) and the Summer Olympics coming up it's a real cert that Canon will have something to offer the world's press

If it would take longer than 6 months to re-coup the price of the 1D I would say wait -- since it will be nearly 3 years old by then and in the current development climate 3 years old is almost "Stone Age" technology.

One caveat -- if you can find a really cheap good used one then get it -- otherwise stick to logic above.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

Oct 07, 2003 at 10:03 AM

dhphoto
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p.2 #14 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Lunatique, I just re-read your initial post and looked at your work, which is excellent.

I honestly think you should buy a 300D/rebel and a good lens or two. The extra 2 megapixel over the 1D DOES make a difference, especially if you need to crop at all, and it is light, easily maoeverable and 'cheap'. Picture quality in RAW is the same as the 10D (i.e. exemplary with some PS work). You will surely lose less money if you sold it and you could concievably keep it as a backup cam. Unless you need the sheer speed of the 1D I would go for the newer, cheaper design

Oct 07, 2003 at 10:23 AM

Lunatique
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p.2 #15 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Erin wrote:
A machine gun keeps peoples heads down, a sniper kills them!

Ahahahahahaha! What an awesome analogy!

Actually, I've never really shot in burst mode before--since I'm the type that composes his scenes very carefully--it's habit from my training as a painter. However, I HAVE experienced the frustration of having a model repeat an action many times to get a shot right--I imagined fast framerate in burst mode would take care of those situations.

I guess I still have a few months to make up my mind. I'm going to be busy writing 3 new TV series these days anyway, so it's not like I could take a break to buy a camera, let alone play with it.

See, I have no doubt that whatever camera I end up with, I will be able to shoot pictures that surpass what I've done up to now--the difference is, would I have a camera that I can fall in love with, and use for the next few years to come without feeling the urgent need to upgrade? When I purchased the Oly C3030Z, I was already wanting the D30, except I knew nothing about photography then, so I couldn't justify buying an SLR. But within a year, I was already shooting beyong the C3030's capabilities, and wanted better. I don't want to go through that again. I want a camera that would satisfy me for quite some time this time.

Edited by Lunatique on Oct 08, 2003 at 12:01 AM GMT

Oct 07, 2003 at 02:45 PM

rebel300
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p.2 #16 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

If you go by shear cost defensive passion alone the 1D is the ticket. ROFL
The Reb

Oct 07, 2003 at 03:09 PM

Arka
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p.2 #17 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

At this point, wait. In a few months, we will see new equipment down the pipe from Canon which will be desirable for people with professional aspirations, and that will grow with you.

Incidentally, I was going to ask you if you did a lot of traditional visual or graphics work. Your photo setups certainly seem to have that quality to them.

I need to start drawing and painting full time again.

Arka C.

Oct 07, 2003 at 05:15 PM

Ben Horne
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p.2 #18 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

Paul Kierstead wrote:
Ok, I am trying not to take the bait of "it is still a consumer camera", as if that means its imaging quality must suffer. It is a non-ruggedized, slowish (but not terribly slow) AF, lowish frame rate body with a limited buffer. The image quality is outstanding.

The image quality on the 10D is good, and clearly better than consumer P&S cameras. I have been tempted to buy one as a backup for my 1D twice now. However, every time I have been tempted, I download some sample images on the net (dpreview.com), and I quickly change my mind. The camera just leaves a lot of fine detail unresolved.... detail that can't be brought back with sharpening. Maybe it's just the samples at dpreview that are that way, but I have yet to see any awesome looking 10D shots at 1:1. Maybe I'm spoiled by the sharp out-of camera images from the 1D. The 10D certainly produces nice images, but when you compare them to a 1D at 1:1, the 1D will almost always win. This isn't to say that the 10D is bad...... it's one of the best DSLRs on the market. I'm just saying that it leaves something to be desired to my critical eye, and that is the reason why I have decided not to buy one as a backup body.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT the 10D to produce mind numbing photos. It would make a good backup body with a MSRP of 1200 (though they're selling for 1500 right now). However, every time I've been tempted by the prospect of a second body, I've been let down by the image quality of the 10D.

Oct 07, 2003 at 06:13 PM

rebel300
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p.2 #19 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

try before you buy ben...as i've said many times now...all 10d's are not created equal...mine is incredible...others totally suck...check out fido's images from it...he has a great one also.
the reb

Oct 07, 2003 at 06:28 PM

Ben Horne
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p.2 #20 · 1D(new lower pricing) or 10D?

I've used 3 different 10Ds. All looked exactly the same. It's a similar look to the D60..... so I think that's just the way the camera is. It's not a bad thing, but after using the 1D, I just get the feeling that there is a level of detail missing. Instead of getting a backup body, I have decided to upgrade my 300mm to a longer lens. I'll wait till the price of the 1D drops further and pick up another one as my second body. Either that or the future 1D replacement a year or two after it's announced.

Oct 07, 2003 at 06:43 PM

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