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Archive 2007 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread Go to previous topic Go to next topic
Erik Barzeski
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p.16 #1 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


thehawkins wrote:
Canon will release some cameras with some new cool stuff. And some of us here will be disappointed.


That's not so much prediction as it is state of being.

Jan 21, 2007 at 03:39 AM
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Andrew Dale
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p.16 #2 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


mfurman wrote:
Andrew Dale said: is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Is it a 12 MP 1.6 crop camara, you have in mind? Are you hoping for the same noise level as for 30D (at the same ISO)?


i don't really know. i'm not exactly an expert on all the math and etc for pixel ratio and all those other fancy terms. but i do think it'd be 1.6x to keep with the pro-sumer line. I just don't think it'd be all that good of a jump to pull another "upgrade" out when it wouldn't be a mountain-moving moment (sorry for the alliteration)

maybe that's just me wanting too much out of Canon. i guess i can hope though, right?!


Jan 21, 2007 at 05:13 AM
Andrew Dale
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p.16 #3 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


mfurman wrote:

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Is it a 12 MP 1.6 crop camara, you have in mind? Are you hoping for the same noise level as for 30D (at the same ISO)?


so i did a little math. does that come out to something around a 4243x2828 resolution? maybe i'm wrong. that's about 300 pixels both ways give or take 50 or so. would that be possible for our good people at Canon?

Jan 21, 2007 at 05:25 AM
andyjaggy82
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p.16 #4 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


thehawkins wrote:
Canon will release some cameras with some new cool stuff. And some of us here will be disappointed.


Amen to that.

Jan 21, 2007 at 06:19 AM
dturina
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p.16 #5 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Andrew Dale wrote:
is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP, then Canon would no longer be excelling, but just following the lead of other companies?

i know that MP isn't what its all about, but for a lot of new guys it is. and to simply make a replacement that seemed to merely match Nikon, Sony, etc, just seems out of character for Canon.


So what, it was an illusion to expect them to stay ahead of everybody forever. Nobody really needs more than 10MP in a midrange body, and to make one would be foolish. If they all make 10MP bodies and stay there, it means they will have to differentiate cameras on other counts, such as build quality, viewfinder size and brightness, weather sealing, low noise and other useful things. Good for us, bad for their profit margin, because it's cheaper to make a more MP sensor than make a better quality camera.

Jan 21, 2007 at 08:28 AM
Simon Naisbitt
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p.16 #6 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Geoff Costello wrote:
Simon Naisbitt wrote:
My predictions for Canon cameras in 2007

How long have you been running it and have you been right at all in the past?

Also (just for fun) if you were (as some rumour sources have suggested) to se Canon splitting the 5D into two (claim 16mp for the 3D like an still 12Mp or so for the 7D like) how would this fit into your predictions etc.

Geoff


This is the first time I have made these predictions, alhtough I hope to continue doing them in the future. Check back a few weeks after the PMA announcements and I will try and make some more based on the new data. I also hope to do a similar thing with the EF lenses, although there is a lot less data to go on and it's a bit more complicated.

I don't think splitting the 5D line will happen. One possibility is for Canon to make the replacement for the 5D a lot faster (with the aid of the DIGIC III chip) and upgrade the weather sealing, keeping it full frame and not upgrading the 1DMkIIn. However, I think there are good reasons to think Canon will stick with the present line up of cameras, just adding an ultra-budget 4000D some time soon.

Andrew Dale wrote:
is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP, then Canon would no longer be excelling, but just following the lead of other companies?

i know that MP isn't what its all about, but for a lot of new guys it is. and to simply make a replacement that seemed to merely match Nikon, Sony, etc, just seems out of character for Canon.


I agree, Canon's double digit cameras (D30, D60, 10D, 20D and 30D) have always lead the way in terms of pixel pitch. I can only think Canon couldn't quite manage the next step down in pixel pitch when the 30D was due and decided to just put something out. Canon should return to their market leading state by decreasing the pixel pitch in the 40D even further than that in the 400D, especially with the threat of more advanced D200 replacement from Nikon this year. However, this would leave the 5.7 micron pixel pitch relatively under-utilised and I question whether Canon is capable of squeezing the pixel pitch further at the present time. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Jan 21, 2007 at 09:45 AM
nikt
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p.16 #7 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Danijel, good post, except their profits margins aren't going to be effected if they improve their cameras. Cars have implemented improvements such as ABS and air bags.

However, all, there is no D200 replacement this year. I'm not sure why this would be suggested. For starters, Nikon does not have a have a history of updating their cameras often. They have a 3 (or 4 year cycle), not 16 months. The Nikon D200 has been selling better than a hot dog and coke at the baseball (a pie and beer for those who visit the cricket )

There is no data that suggests that the D200 is going to be replaced. Its got to be the 'last' thing on Nikons mind. It would be a massive shock should they deviate from that strategy with this camera .Whats there to upgrade, it has a magnesium alloy body, weather sealing, 5 fps, 10MP's, mini D2X handling all on a sesame seed bun!

Canon aren't releasing a 40D until September anyway.

market leading state - you mean marketing leading state. Sorry, does the 30D take bad photos because of the size of the pixels? What may be improved, like you mentioned on your site, are things like bit depth. Dynamic range and noise handling could be improved also, . This is what people will get the most out of an improved chip. Body wise, well, see above posts.

Edited by nikt on Jan 21, 2007 at 09:48 PM GMT

Jan 21, 2007 at 10:12 AM
dturina
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p.16 #8 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


nikt wrote:
There is no data that suggests that the D200 is going to be replaced. Its got to be the 'last' thing on Nikons mind. It would be a massive shock should they deviate from that streggy with this camera .Whats there to upgrade, it has a magnesium alloy body, weather sealing, 5 fps, 10MP's, mini D2X handling all on a sesame seed bun!


Exactly; it is a product of mature technology that has no obvious flaws or weak points, except not being FF.

If I analyze Canon's current lineup for possible improvements, it looks like this:

1Ds II - resolution should be enhanced to 22MP to match digital backs, FPS should be increased to 5. Battery options such as two 511a batteries instead of a huge NiMH. Mirror lockup button. Dust cleaning. Fast framerate crop mode for sports/wildlife.

1D IIn - this one is a strange animal, probably to be extinct

5D - weather sealing should be introduced. Dust cleaning. Mirror lockup button. FPS should be increased to 5. Multiple custom reset settings (not on program wheel, but a separate button+aperture wheel selection). Maybe split the class into weather sealed and normal.

30D - resolution increase to 10MP. Bigger viewfinder. Weather sealing should be introduced. Dust cleaning. Mirror lockup button. Split the class into one weather sealed metal body and non-sealed plastic body (to compete with Nikon D200/D80 respectively).

400D - it is as it should be - cheap but good image quality. No improvements necessary. Introduce a pink-colored version for blondes.


Jan 21, 2007 at 11:11 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.16 #9 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Nikon will release a D200s with a few nice updates, slightly improved noise etc and make many of the updates available to existing D200 owners via a firmware upgrade. But overall it's a nice camera and Nikon won't have true replacement for another 12-18 months IMO.

APS-H will live on, even if it's not in a 1 series; it's the best format sensor available for the blend of performance and price.

Jan 21, 2007 at 12:01 PM
Lotusm50
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p.16 #10 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Andrew Dale wrote:
is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP, then Canon would no longer be excelling, but just following the lead of other companies?

i know that MP isn't what its all about, but for a lot of new guys it is. and to simply make a replacement that seemed to merely match Nikon, Sony, etc, just seems out of character for Canon.


How? Didn't they just do exactly that with the 400D (Rebel XTi)?

nikt wrote:
However, all, there is no D200 replacement this year. I'm not sure why this would be suggested. For starters, Nikon does not have a have a history of updating their cameras often. They have a 3 (or 4 year cycle), not 16 months. The Nikon D200 has been selling better than a hot dog and coke at the baseball (a pie and beer for those who visit the cricket )

There is no data that suggests that the D200 is going to be replaced. Its got to be the 'last' thing on Nikons mind. It would be a massive shock should they deviate from that strategy with this camera .Whats there to upgrade, it has a magnesium alloy body, weather sealing, 5 fps, 10MP's, mini D2X handling all on a sesame seed bun!


Right. Nikon has absolutly no reason to upgrade the D200 this year. It's still selling very well and they are making money on it -- and it is not effectiely challenged by anyone else's product. They are going to milk this cash cow for some time before investing in the development of the replacement product.

nikt wrote:
Canon aren't releasing a 40D until September anyway.
{snip}
does the 30D take bad photos because of the size of the pixels? What may be improved, like you mentioned on your site, are things like bit depth. Dynamic range and noise handling could be improved also, . This is what people will get the most out of an improved chip. Body wise, well, see above posts.


Too bad that Canon would wait until September because the 30D's sales are abysmal. Upgrading it today to 10mp simply and cheaply like they did with the 350D would rescue sales for a period of time while thay prepared a "real" replacement/upgrade for the model. (An approach that seemed to work pretty well of the 350D/400D)

It's not that the 30D takes bad pictures, it because the 30D is a bad seller. A majority of customers in it's market segment (but certainly not all) primarily look at MP as a point of comparison, and even if you get past the MP count, the rest of it is not all that competitive with the competiton (e.g., D80, K10D).


Jan 21, 2007 at 12:11 PM
nikt
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p.16 #11 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


I think you might be right on the money there Whayne.

Jan 21, 2007 at 12:13 PM
nikt
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p.16 #12 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Actually, you're right about the MP on the 30D, Lotus. I try not believe it but it is true to some degree. Someone came into the shop on Saturday and asked for prices on the 30D and 400D. They then asked why the 30D was more expensive when the 400D has 10MP and clearly a better camera.

They were unconvinced by my initial explanation thats its not solely about megapixels. I told them that the 1Dn has 8MP and the price, and the Nikon D2Hs' 4MP and the price. It does frustrate me, I must admit, it shouldn't.

True, the 30D sales have plummeted. Will 10MP help, maybe. I think it would have to seriously offer more than a few little refinements. It would be disappointing if Canon really didn't give it a major overhaul. It would be disappointing to Canon, not me.

If all they did was put a 10MP sensor in the same body, that camera will stay at the bottom of the sales tree. Basically, we'd be talking about a 400D in a slightly bigger (thought a hell of a lot better) body with 5fps instead of 3. The standard has been set by Nikon, then Pentax. Canon has had time to plan their attack. Come Aug, Sep I think they'll get it right.

Jan 21, 2007 at 12:32 PM
Benny L
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p.16 #13 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


john Paul wrote:
dcmiller wrote:
Lotusm50 wrote:
asnapper wrote:
dcmiller wrote:
You guys stink at rumors. This is a rumor, from dpreview:

The new MF Canon camera sensor is 41.5x56mm and 40MP

New MF SL (Super L) lenses:

35/2.8
40/3.5 TS-E
45/2.8
70/2.8 TS-E
80/2
100/2.8 Macro 1:1
120/2.8 TS-E
200/2 IS
300/4 IS Macro 1:1
300/2.8 IS
600/5.6 IS
800/6.3 IS
1.4x
2x

35-80/2.8 IS
80-200/2.8 IS
200-600/5.6 IS

And more to come
Sorry, I don't know the prices

"Se non è vero, è ben trovato"

Ramón

I'll take this or the True Color. I don't care if the 30D marketed in spain should have been a slightly darker shade of gray.


The originator of the thread on Dpreview says the price will be around 10K, I'm assuming USD. Seems cheap until you look at the price of the Mamiya ZD.


What thread? Is there a link?




It's in the 1DsIII thread.
Se non è vero, è ben trovato




Hmm... I heard about a Canon 55MP medium format back being in development .. a multi layer sensor.. that was about three years ago though.. so,...who knows..

JP


Why would canon do anything like this

I see a 1Ds MKii N and then maybe a replacement of both 1 series cameras later in the year (September??)


Jan 21, 2007 at 01:30 PM
Hrow
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p.16 #14 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


nikt wrote:
Actually, you're right about the MP on the 30D, Lotus. I try not believe it but it is true to some degree. Someone came into the shop on Saturday and asked for prices on the 30D and 400D. They then asked why the 30D was more expensive when the 400D has 10MP and clearly a better camera.

They were unconvinced by my initial explanation thats its not solely about megapixels. I told them that the 1Dn has 8MP and the price, and the Nikon D2Hs' 4MP and the price. It does frustrate me, I must admit, it shouldn't.

True, the 30D sales have plummeted. Will 10MP help, maybe. I think it would have to seriously offer more than a few little refinements. It would be disappointing if Canon really didn't give it a major overhaul. It would be disappointing to Canon, not me.

If all they did was put a 10MP sensor in the same body, that camera will stay at the bottom of the sales tree. Basically, we'd be talking about a 400D in a slightly bigger (thought a hell of a lot better) body with 5fps instead of 3. The standard has been set by Nikon, then Pentax. Canon has had time to plan their attack. Come Aug, Sep I think they'll get it right.



The one thing that a salesman never wants to have to say is "Yes, but..." Unfortunately, Canon now finds themselves in this position with the 30D and they will do something about it because it effects the whole sales process. Here's a pretty typical sales scenario: person comes and compares the lowend Canon and Nikon. Canon fares very well. Good salesman tries to up sell them (only when appropriate of course). Now he has to start explaining why the "lesser" Canon (30D) and thus the whole line is still better to a person who doesn't know or give a rat's ass about what he is talking about. Tough job.

In very real terms, this is why automakers concentrate on 0-60 times. Pretty meaningless in real life but it is a lot easier to explain that you have the faster car than to try to explain the unique geometry of your suspension and why it is better.





Jan 21, 2007 at 02:22 PM
darknite
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p.16 #15 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Today, based on current technology, no one may need more than 10mp. HOWEVER, when I hear a general blanket statement like this I always laugh, and think back to the infamous Bilol Gates "No one will EVER need more than 640k" statement. Of the possible urban legend of the late 1800s early 1900s patent office head who said everything has already been invented, thats all there is, lets close up shop and go home.

Remember when B&W film tech was as good as it possibly gets? Can't get any finer grain? Kodak invented tabular crystals, and we got T-Max. Remember when CCD was the only way to get an image? Canon found a way to do it with cmos, and yet another variation from foveon.

With HDTV & HDDVD on the way, people will come to expect even more from still photography, and technology will be improved. Go ahead, come back here in 10 years. The board will be full of threads " No one will ever need more than 5Gigapixels, EVER"


dturina wrote:
Andrew Dale wrote:
is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP, then Canon would no longer be excelling, but just following the lead of other companies?

i know that MP isn't what its all about, but for a lot of new guys it is. and to simply make a replacement that seemed to merely match Nikon, Sony, etc, just seems out of character for Canon.


So what, it was an illusion to expect them to stay ahead of everybody forever. Nobody really needs more than 10MP in a midrange body, and to make one would be foolish. If they all make 10MP bodies and stay there, it means they will have to differentiate cameras on other counts, such as build quality, viewfinder size and brightness, weather sealing, low noise and other useful things. Good for us, bad for their profit margin, because it's cheaper to make a more MP sensor than make a better quality camera.



Jan 21, 2007 at 03:17 PM
JohnLL
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p.16 #16 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


mfurman wrote:
Lotusm50 said: Again, it's about being able to have a shorter/smaller lens give you the reach you need. It all boils down to that

You do not seem to understand that there is no Canon lens longer than 600mm. For someone who already has EF 600 f/4.0L lens, a crop camera gives a better pixel density (resolution) than 5D.


Canon has (or used to have) a 1200mm EF f/5.6, but it is/was a special order item. Sigma has a 300-800 zoom that is available in Canon mount for about $5K IIRC. Both these lenses can be used with TCs.


Jan 21, 2007 at 03:21 PM
Joel Slack
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p.16 #17 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Well and good if you have $80,000 for the Canon 1200mm. I heard that there were only a handful in existence.

Jan 21, 2007 at 03:28 PM
paulhodson
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p.16 #18 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Jeff wrote:
From now until eternity (approximately the date of PMA or not-so-shortly thereafter).....

Jeff
FM.com Moderator


But you will need to start the next one the week after

Jan 21, 2007 at 03:40 PM
dturina
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p.16 #19 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


darknite wrote:
Today, based on current technology, no one may need more than 10mp. HOWEVER, when I hear a general blanket statement like this I always laugh, and think back to the infamous Bilol Gates "No one will EVER need more than 640k" statement. Of the possible urban legend of the late 1800s early 1900s patent office head who said everything has already been invented, thats all there is, lets close up shop and go home.


Most people who will buy a 10MP body would do just fine with 3MP. Those things are replacing 35mm film, which can barely keep up with a 5MP digital SLR. 10MP is seriously challenging medium format Velvia. Things like that should be kept in perspective. People started needing more RAM on their computers because suddenly someone got the bright idea and built an all-graphics user interface and we started watching the movies on our computers. With photography, the question is how big do you intend to print? A3? A2? I get great A3 prints with 5MP, which means great A2 prints with 10MP. Although few will ever print A2, they will have to store this potential in each and every snapshot, and that's starting to get inconvenient.

Jan 21, 2007 at 04:11 PM
Erik Barzeski
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p.16 #20 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


dturina wrote:Most people who will buy a 10MP body would do just fine with 3MP. Those things are replacing 35mm film, which can barely keep up with a 5MP digital SLR. 10MP is seriously challenging medium format Velvia. Things like that should be kept in perspective. People started needing more RAM on their computers because suddenly someone got the bright idea and built an all-graphics user interface and we started watching the movies on our computers. With photography, the question is how big do you intend to print? A3? A2? I get great A3 prints with 5MP, which means great A2 prints with 10MP. Although few will ever print A2, they will have to store this potential in each and every snapshot, and that's starting to get inconvenient.

While that's true in many regards, I like to look at it this way, too: more megapixels means you can be a tad sloppier in your framing and crop more. Though most old-school photographers will likely pooh-pooh the idea of not getting it right the first time, it doesn't change that it can happen. If you have a choice between getting a shot and cropping later to make it work versus losing the shot because it took to long to frame, the extra pixels can help when cropping.

Jan 21, 2007 at 04:23 PM
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mfurman
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p.16 #21 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


dturina said: Those things are replacing 35mm film, which can barely keep up with a 5MP digital SLR.
This is simply not true. Films that I meant to be scanned get results in close to 10 Mpixel equivalent (when properly scanned!). B&W low ISO films can easily lead to 16 Mpixel results.

Jan 21, 2007 at 04:25 PM
Rusty1
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p.16 #22 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Simon Naisbitt wrote:
My predictions for Canon cameras in 2007


Thank you Simon, a very deep and thoughtful analysis. Much appreciated here. With this release history of strict regimentation it is hard to imagine any but the most begrudged variation. I found your extrapolation's compelling. I'll be surprised if this summation is far off.

The positioning of the 5D/7D and the IDmkIIn/mkIII in relation to each other is the most interesting to me.



Jan 21, 2007 at 04:29 PM
Kenneth Ekman
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p.16 #23 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


When will the first DSLR with built-in GPS appear?

Jan 21, 2007 at 04:42 PM
danmitchell
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p.16 #24 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


An exchange from an earlier post:

First: "is it just me? or does it seem like if Canon were to put out a 30D replacement that was 10.1 MP, then Canon would no longer be excelling, but just following the lead of other companies?"

Reply: "How? Didn't they just do exactly that with the 400D (Rebel XTi)?"

I think the point is valid. During the 20D/30D/350D period Canon surpassed everyone else on an MP basis. (We could argue about how important the MP count is or is not, but let's not go there...:-) Canon sold 8MP cameras while everyone else was selling 6 MP bodies.

All of a sudden, Canon found its camera being equalled or exceeded in this area. Their bodies were at 8MP while essentially all of the competitors were coming out with 10MP crop sensor bodies. Canon went from being the leader in this regard to being a follower, almost overnight.

The 400D is a fine camera, but one could argue that it no longer surpasses the competition in the way that the 350D and 300D did when they came out.

The 30D and its replacement (should there be one) might be even more problematic for Canon. Yes, the 30D is a fine crop sensor camera body. However, it no longer surpasses all of the competitors in the way that it (and the 10D and the 20D) did in this category in the past. It still sits at 8MP while the competition has moved on to 10MP, and it doesn't have additional features (whose value we could debate, but again, let's not) like dust reduction, etc. In fact, there are quite a few people who feel that Canon's own 400D beats the 30D in certain areas and for certain types of use.

The sort of 30D replacement (OK, I'll call it the "40D") that we might expect would certainly be a nice solid camera: 10MP, dust reduction, larger display, and all the rest. However, it would no longer be a product that was unqeuivocally ahead of the competition in the way that the 20D and perhaps the 30D were. It becomes harder and harder for Canon (or any other company) to produce a crop sensor body that stands out from the competition. (Again, the significance of the differences between the 400D and such a "40D" are going to be seen as less significant than they might have been in the past.)

I still feel that some reorganization of the product line might be coming. If so, while we are unlikely to see a wholesale introduction of all new cameras this spring, I'd bet that Canon sees a path forward and new introductions might be seen in light of such changes.

I'm still of the opinion that the only way for Canon to retain strong differentiation between its products in the 30D segment and those of the competition is to move that model level to full frame before too long. For some time I have felt that it would be possible and desirable for Canon to push a 5D-like 12MP full frame body into a price range where it could appeal to current 30D buyers.To my way of thinking, the initial price should be within a few hundred dollars of the inflation adjusted original list price of, say, the 20D. (Upgrading the 400D may have helped make this possible.) In addition, this would permit the introduction of a more capable (sealed, etc.) 16 MP body at about the original price of the 5D - though this probaby can't happen before the 1-series bodies are updatd.

I use a 350D (and L lenses). I would not bother upgrading to a 30D, a 400D, nor to a 10MP 40D. I would upgrade - and quickly - to a less expensive 12MP full frame body or to the 16MP full frame body I described above.

Dan

Jan 21, 2007 at 04:45 PM
MX5NC
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p.16 #25 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Surely what Canon need is some USP again across it's bodies; more MP's (ok), more dynamic range, faster ISO without IQ loss, WiFi (?), faster card writes, mirror lock up on all, bigger-better display with live view, but non of this is 'new' ... what Canon needs is something useful and new. Guess they need to think outside the box to get sales off the big N and Sony/Pentax et al.

So what might this new useful be .....

Jan 21, 2007 at 05:04 PM

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