nads wrote:
I put my faith in the economic reasons Canon has to throttle the performance of certain bodies. They have a hierarchy of products to maintain and if the bodies that are low on the totem pole outperform the ones higher up, who wants the ones up above? My faith is sustained by the fact that Canon has proven the concept by gratuitously demonstrating that they can and will do such a thing. I hope I can be forgiven for not putting blind faith in a white paper that was drafted in the marketing department for the purpose of re-enforcing the position of each individual product within their overall line. ...Show more →
Feel free to buy a 5D and dissect it - perhaps it just needs a bit of tweaking.
I said it back at the time, and I'll say it again. The 30D was the wrong product for Canon when it hit market. If Canon wasn't ready with a competitive model, they should have waited 6 months. At this level, many shooters expect 10+ Mpx, whether they need it or not. Canon has not delivered, and while I appreciate the improvements that went into the 30D over the 20D, it is still, essentially, a 20D. That's not a bad thing, but 8.2 Mpx doesn't sell against 10+, even if the high-ISO performance of the 8.2 Mpx is better.
Canon lost market share at this level precisely because they chose not to compete. Now they have to resurrect the $1000-1500 price range with a big product. The 30D would have been that product had it incorporated higher pixel count and perhaps the anti-dust feature of the 400D, though I'm not certain that Canon had the higher-pixel sensor ready at the time.
I cannot speak on Canon's desired sales level for the 5D, since I don't know what they expected. Surely, they didn't expect it to outsell the $1300 30D given that it's much more expensive. That would be silly - there aren't that many hobbyists & pros that have that much disposable income. I consider it a bargain compared to the competition in terms of image quality per dollar, but that is a somewhat subjective analysis....Show more →
Canon could have made the 30D a much better camera without upping the pixel count. If they weren't ready for 10+MP, then they should have taken a leaf from Nikon's book. Added some sealing, further improved AF, bigger buffer, smaller spot meter, built-in wireless flash trigger. With these improvements many would care less about it not being 10MP and it would have maintained a far better image for Canon, and made the camera worthy of a 30D title.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Canon could have made the 30D a much better camera without upping the pixel count. If they weren't ready for 10+MP, then they should have taken a leaf from Nikon's book. Added some sealing, further improved AF, bigger buffer, smaller spot meter, built-in wireless flash trigger. With these improvements many would care less about it not being 10MP and it would have maintained a far better image for Canon, and made the camera worthy of a 30D title.
Well, they could have done a lot with the 30D, but they didn't. Probably didn't want to spend big money on an "interim" improvement, though many of those features would have been nice (and might have moved the 30D up a couple of hundred in price). What they did do is appreciated, of course. I like the camera. While I do appreciate Nikon's efforts in the features' area, I don't think Canon wanted to redesign the camera that significantly.
As for megapixels, from my standpoint, I think 8.2 was the right place to be unless the technology for improved performance and higher pixel count existed (I don't think it did). The 30D is certainly able to produce low-noise images at high ISO settings, and retains detail better than its competitors at 1600-3200.
But the market tends to want megapixels because they have been led to believe that more is always better. Of course all things being equal, I'd take more megapixels any day, but all things are not equal. Prematurely slapping a 10-11 Mpx sensor in the 30D would have brought about a situation where Canon would have had to deal with noise in a more agressive manner. I don't believe that the next step in sensor/processing technology was ready.
Anyway, I think that a lot of buyers out there are/were swayed by the big, sexy "10" in the megapixel column as offered by Canon's competitors. And I think that has hurt 30D sales in comparison to the competitors.
I hate to add another request in lieu of a "formal" rumor, but the one feature I would love to have on the 5D MkII, 7D and even the 40D is a wireless flash like Nikon offers on their cameras from the D80 up.
The technology is already there with the ST-E2, why not just integrate it into camera bodies and anyone with a 430EX or nicer will automatically improve their lighting.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Canon could have made the 30D a much better camera without upping the pixel count. If they weren't ready for 10+MP, then they should have taken a leaf from Nikon's book. Added some sealing, further improved AF, bigger buffer, smaller spot meter, built-in wireless flash trigger. With these improvements many would care less about it not being 10MP and it would have maintained a far better image for Canon, and made the camera worthy of a 30D title.
I have to agree and one would suspect that so is the market - hence the loss of market share of the 30D over the last 6 months or so. Let's hope the pressures are such that some of these 'high end" features have made it into the 40D (rather than them just bringing forward the obvious 10.2 mp sensor etc.) Hard to tell how long before release the feature set is finalised. If the 40D is just a warmed up 30D with 10.2Mp and not much more - one can be sure that the market will 'punish' Canon in the advanced amateur / prosumer area until they get the message (50D perhaps!)
Canon are smart though - which is why they have led for so long in the digital camera market. Indeed a counter view is that it is Canon's market lead in DSLR that have forced Nikon, Pentax etc to innovate and bring down some of the higher end features (a classic strategy). I would suspect that the response over the next year will be swift. Overall this aggressive competition can only be good for the consumer. Imagine the standard features that a mid level DSLR will have in 2 or 3 years time, with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax fighting for market share
No it ain't, call Rick to try and hire one. Or go to a CPS-supported event and try and get a repair done on one. Or ask for a loaner while your own 5D is in for repair.
10DFT wrote:
Anyway, I think that a lot of buyers out there are/were swayed by the big, sexy "10" in the megapixel column as offered by Canon's competitors. And I think that has hurt 30D sales in comparison to the competitors.
A lot of people laying down $1400 aren't that dumb. Canon could differentiate the camera in other ways. But unfortunately for them, they trail the D80 and D200 on both features and pixels - a big double whammy. If you take the cheap option you should expect some reprisals, and they are seeing the D80/D200 knock it for six.
They would be sensitive to this fall from grace and that's why I think the 40D(??) will definitely be released at PMA, and miss the 18 month cycle. After all it's really a 2.5 year cycle as the 30D offers so little over the 20D.
The other alternative is a fresh camera, that sits above the 30D, but still well under $2K, and the 30D soldiers on for another 6 months.
I currently have a new 30D that I am thinking of upgrading. I would like to go up to a full-frame like the 5D, but I don't want to buy one and have a new version come out 2 months later. With the double rebate with the 70-200 2.8L IS I am buying I could get a 5D for $600 extra with my 30D trade-in, but I'm tempted to wait until Canon announces the new cameras. I have to make the decision before February 19th for the rebate, though.... Bah
Trust me, there will NEVER be an EOS 40D in the pipeline. An EOS 50D as the successor to EOS 30D is more likely. Asian superstitious disallow Canon from using single or double-digit 4 numeral in its SLR/DSLR designation. Triple-digit and more are OK - hence EOS 400D designation is OK. Canon tried a double-digit on the PowerShot series, the S40, wasn't selling very well either and was quickly replaced by the S50 and S60. The PowerShot G-series also bypassed "4" by having a G5 after the G3 model.
Fujifilm bypassed "4" too by naming its latest DSLR as the S5 Pro.
Biggest proof of bad luck associated with "4" designation happened to Nikon with its pro AF 35mm SLR, the F4/F4s/F4e series. Touted as the pro SLR camera which would make all pro photogs dumping other brands and using it as the premier choice, it turned out to be the other way around instead.
Its existence signalled the beginning of mass exodus from Nikon to the Canon EOS System in the 90s and beyond by pro photogs everywhere.
Tentacle wrote:
But ... Even the EF-S 10-22mm, with its smaller projection circle only manages f/3.5-4.5. The only thing that comes close is the Sigma 12-24 f/4.5-5.6 and that one aint small, even at those slow apertures. So, appreciate the optical challenges that you have to take.
Casey L. Buell wrote:
I currently have a new 30D that I am thinking of upgrading. I would like to go up to a full-frame like the 5D, but I don't want to buy one and have a new version come out 2 months later. With the double rebate with the 70-200 2.8L IS I am buying I could get a 5D for $600 extra with my 30D trade-in, but I'm tempted to wait until Canon announces the new cameras. I have to make the decision before February 19th for the rebate, though.... Bah
I'm in a similar boat. I have a 400D to dink around with for now, but really hope to see an improved 5D (even at $2999 or $3299) soon. The $600 rebates (dropping the price to $2140) on the current 5D are compelling, and a 5D at $1999 might be interesting too, but I'd buy even at $3299 something that did:
a) 16 MP
b) 5 FPS
c) 5D ergo
I have a fairly large (programming) gig in February and will have about $10k to spend on camera and glass. If I have to wait until September, it's likely I'll only have half of it left. ;-)
Knowing next to nothing, I'd put a 5D successor at about 50/50 odds for PMA. The $600 rebates are really the compelling thing, I think.
P.S. I couldn't care less if it's a "pro" body or not. I agree - the thread is more interesting when people are talking about rumors. ;-)
lordcarl wrote:
Trust me, there will NEVER be an EOS 40D in the pipeline. An EOS 50D as the successor to EOS 30D is more likely. Asian superstitious disallow Canon from using single or double-digit 4 numeral in its SLR/DSLR designation. Triple-digit and more are OK - hence EOS 400D designation is OK. Canon tried a double-digit on the PowerShot series, the S40, wasn't selling very well either and was quickly replaced by the S50 and S60. The PowerShot G-series also bypassed "4" by having a G5 after the G3 model.
Fujifilm bypassed "4" too by naming its latest DSLR as the S5 Pro.
Biggest proof of bad luck associated with "4" designation happened to Nikon with its pro AF 35mm SLR, the F4/F4s/F4e series. Touted as the pro SLR camera which would make all pro photogs dumping other brands and using it as the premier choice, it turned out to be the other way around instead.
Its existence signalled the beginning of mass exodus from Nikon to the Canon EOS System in the 90s and beyond by pro photogs everywhere. ...Show more →
It's a simple fact that "4" is a no-no because phonetically it is very similar to the word "death". But not "40". The Nikon D40 is doing pretty well, isn't it?
The numbers 4 and 9 are considered unlucky in Japanese: 4, pronounced shi, is a homophone for "death"; 9, when pronounced ku, is a homophone for "suffering." The number 13 is sometimes considered unlucky, though this is a carryover from Western tradition.
And for something different:
hydrotoast wrote:
[...]
The Tokina 12-24 constant f4 would be closer
But the rumour was about an EF 10-24 lens, so capable of full frame. And the Tokina, while a very fine lens indeed, doesn't cover full frame. (It will work just fine on a 5D, but you're forced to crop the black border.)
Geoff Costello wrote:
I have to agree and one would suspect that so is the market - hence the loss of market share of the 30D over the last 6 months or so. Let's hope the pressures are such that some of these 'high end" features have made it into the 40D (rather than them just bringing forward the obvious 10.2 mp sensor etc.) Hard to tell how long before release the feature set is finalised. If the 40D is just a warmed up 30D with 10.2Mp and not much more - one can be sure that the market will 'punish' Canon in the advanced amateur / prosumer area until they get the message (50D perhaps!)
Canon are smart though - which is why they have led for so long in the digital camera market. Indeed a counter view is that it is Canon's market lead in DSLR that have forced Nikon, Pentax etc to innovate and bring down some of the higher end features (a classic strategy). I would suspect that the response over the next year will be swift. Overall this aggressive competition can only be good for the consumer. Imagine the standard features that a mid level DSLR will have in 2 or 3 years time, with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax fighting for market share ...Show more →
Until recently canon has been the sales leader - 2:1 over nikon and the rest of the pack are just also rans and don't count for much. Sony's new alpha is the feature winner, and packed with value - but sales are not very good and have been declining from all i've heard and read.
Nikon is selling their low end bodies very well - trying to get market share at any cost IMO. It worked for canon with the 300D, but they were a good year ahead of the competition. Canon could me a D40 competetor, but at what cost? I doubt nikon is making much money on that camera, and you can't keep that up for long. Amateurs buy it, and may move up, may buy lenses, but if price is their number one concern they aren't buying the profitable glass nikon needs to sell.
I suspect canon will upgrade the 5D a bit, but as it has no competion to speak of and at $2700 ish is probably a profit maker for canon. The nearly year-long rebate on it means canon has too many on the shelf OR is up to something else...like gaining market share in studios and weddings and other pros.
I'd like to see a real, good, AFFORDABLE wirelss 'tether' from canon. They have something at $999, but I've never seen anyone using it. Wi-Pics is gone from all I hear, so there is no other option at this time. I can shoot wirelssly using a $379 laptop I got on black friday (shoot tethered to it in a backpack). USB NICs are under $50...Canon could really jump the competetion with built in or inexpensive wireless!
Tentacle wrote:
It's a simple fact that "4" is a no-no because phonetically it is very similar to the word "death". But not "40". The Nikon D40 is doing pretty well, isn't it?
True but Canon need not follow Nikon's style of naming its upcoming DSLRs. It was quite embarassing to have the "D" designation came first with the D30 and D60 previously but these came about due to Canon's earlier collaboration with Kodak that produced the EOS D2000 and EOS D6000 respectively. So even though the "D" now come after the numerals, there will still be some confusions when mentioning a "40D" in forums like this as there are still people who typed "D30, D20, D5 or D1s II" when referring to EOS models.
Speaking of EOS 30D's successor, start dreaming about it from PMA 2008 onwards, and not earlier than that. PhotoPlus Expo in NYC in the falls of 2007 is more likely to see the replacement for the EOS 5D.
This year, full-frame EOS DSLRs take centrestage over everything else - as part of the EOS System's 20th anniversary celebrations. Newer 1.6x DSLRs can wait until next year to materialise!
Speaking of EOS 30D's successor, start dreaming about it from PMA 2008 onwards, and not earlier than that. PhotoPlus Expo in NYC in the falls of 2007 is more likely to see the replacement for the EOS 5D.
This year, full-frame EOS DSLRs take centrestage over everything else - as part of the EOS System's 20th anniversary celebrations. Newer 1.6x DSLRs can wait until next year to materialise!
Like someone else already mentioned, the entry level camera buyers aren't buying into the EOS system as much as the 20/30D users. Especially those buyers who buy an entry level kit: Once a new package comes along, some of them just buy a kit again. Lens mount lock-in? Not for them.
So, I think Canon has a lot riding on the 30D segment. There is a whole slew of cameras (D80, K10D, Alpha 100 and D200) that takes chunks out of the 30D sales. If Canon doesn't update the 30D to at least catch up, they are going to lose out on a lot of commitment to their EF mount, something that will hurt more than just missed 30D sales.
lordcarl wrote:
Speaking of EOS 30D's successor, start dreaming about it from PMA 2008 onwards, and not earlier than that. PhotoPlus Expo in NYC in the falls of 2007 is more likely to see the replacement for the EOS 5D.
This year, full-frame EOS DSLRs take centre stage over everything else - as part of the EOS System's 20th anniversary celebrations. Newer 1.6x DSLRs can wait until next year to materialise!
You speak (or post at least) as if you have inside knowledge... Do you have a source or is this just your style of confident speculation as to what you think will happen? (Which is fine)
For your proposed approach to work as a market strategy (1 series replacement at PMA followed by the dual 5D replacements my source is predicting) to give full frame prominence - the new low end 5D (7D?)would have to be only a relatively small step up in price from the 30D so make it a very attractive proposition in the sub $2000 market. Given all that, I could imagine this working if the release times were not so stretched out (e.g. 5D II and 7D in late 2007 and 30D replacement in 2008 etc as you suggest) as otherwise only releasing the new 1 series at PMO would leave the bulk of Canon's DSLR mid level business quite exposed for most of this year in the mid level (Nikon D80/D200 and Pentax K10D) range. Very brave strategy by Canon to give away mid level market share for so long...
I can see it working better if the timings were different and the replacement 1 series and low cost 5D came out around PMA as that gives Canon something solid in the market for most of the year, while still preserving the 1 series pre-eminence. Priced right if full frame dominance was Canon’s gaol it could make a difference, as lacking a good new 1.6 camera and with the new “7D” FF attractively priced I could see a number of people upgrading. Indeed according the source I quoted in one of the earlier post in this thread, something like that was one of the other hotly debated options in Canon - though he felt that they were 99% likely to go for the 1 series and 30D replacement first.
EDIT - A further thought - I could imagine the strategy you are proposing potentially being Canon's strategy (if their DSLR division was agnorant and very confident of retaining market etc) up until very late last year... Then the (shock horror) of Nikon taking market leadership with the D40/D80/D200 for the first time in many years in December (as per another poster here) could well have caused them to fall back to the more realistic approaches my source was talking about... So was your suggestion speculation (as are 99% of posts in this forum) or perhaps a source from last year which (hopefully) has been superseded by a more rapid approach?
Anyway - time will tell...
Edited by Geoff Costello on Jan 19, 2007 at 08:14 PM GMT
(Which is fine)