I want to take this opportunity to thank you publicly for the work that you do, and it is a time consuming and thankless job. No matter what you do, someone will not like it and there is nothing you can do about it. Unfortunately today was a bad day, but I personally think you are doing more work and are being more conscientous than any of us would in your position.
Tentacle wrote:
And I apologise for polluting this interesting thread My reason for doing so is that certain forum quirks like auto-embedding, no edit-locks and removable time-stamps result, eventually, in someone leaving this forum. A source of great marchitectural insight exits stage left. I think that's a bad thing.
I agree with Tentacle. It is a shame that this situation escalated from a simple and innocent posting error - we've all made them, right? - into a series of increasingly personal and accusatory messages in the thread. This is no way to run a forum - especially an excellent and useful one like that provided by Fred Miranda - and it is very unfortunate that the end result is the loss of a the valuable contributions of jwil and perhaps others who found the whole exchange distasteful.
While thinking that this whole thing could have been handled much differently - and that it still could be rectified...
.... I'll try to make this my final post on the matter in this forum.
Mark Shaxted wrote:
And how many users that own EF-S lenses are there? An awful lot. By moving the next camera up from a 400D to an APS-H sensor you basically give them no upgrade path without a significant financial penalty. Unhappy customers cease to be customers.
There's no chance at all that the xxD series will be anything other than a APS-C sensor, other than in a fertile mind!
The new brand thing is probably a high end printer range or a camcorder range.
I still have this thought that there is another way for Canon to evolve the product line besides introducing a 1.3 crop sensor model to replace the 30D.
Thinking out a bit into the future, and looking at market segments rather than just buyers of current models, it seems like there are at least 4 identifiable groups :
Clearly these categories of pretty general and there are those who cross over the categories. (As timbop pointed our when he wrote - about me? - that there are "serious amateurs like Dan who absolutely love their 400D and are happy to buy the $1200 glass to go with it")
Currently Canon markets 1.6 crop sensor cameras mostly to the middle two categories - what I referred to as "consumers" and "prosumers." Formerly the 350D was aimed at consumers and the 30D at prosumers.
I have a hunch that Canon would eventually like to move prosumers up into the full-frame cameras. (Or, looked at from Canon's point of view, push full-frame cameras into the prosumer space.)
Replacing the 30D with a 1.3 crop sensor camera would effectively differentiate market groups by sensor size. (Tiny P&S sensors, 1.6 consumer sensors, in-between 1.3 prosumer sensors, and full-frame pro sensors.)
Given some of what we've heard and seen from Canon, I think it is more likely that they would like to see prosumers on full-frame cameras. I have a hunch that the 400D may become the high end 1.6x sensor camera before too long and that something (the 5D? a cheaper version of the 5D?) will draw prosumers away from crop sensor cameras. Along with that, Canon could eventually introduce a more basic and less expensive 1.6x body below the 400D.
While a full-frame "replacement" for the 30D segment would, indeed, be more expensive than the 30D, adjusted for inflation I doubt it would be more expensive than the "prosumer" models originally were. In addition, the full-frame sensor would bring sufficient increased perceived (and, I'd argue, real) value to convince quite a few more 20D/30D owners (and even this 350D owner) to upgrade.
(I acknowledge that I have absolutely no actual knowledge of Canon's plans - but you knew that, right? - and that there are complications to my theory. But what is a RUMORS forum if not for wild speculation?)
A 30D successor with a 1.6x crop will likely be a 40D
A new niche camera, with 1.3x crop will end between the 40D and the 5D.
In a way this makes sense. They stripped the 1DsII from the Über-AF, weathersealing and build-in grip to get the 5D. Who knows, they may pull off the same trick with the 1DII and get the 3D?
danmitchell wrote:
I still have this thought that there is another way for Canon to evolve the product line besides introducing a 1.3 crop sensor model to replace the 30D.
Thinking out a bit into the future, and looking at market segments rather than just buyers of current models, it seems like there are at least 4 identifiable groups :
Clearly these categories of pretty general and there are those who cross over the categories. (As timbop pointed our when he wrote - about me? - that there are "serious amateurs like Dan who absolutely love their 400D and are happy to buy the $1200 glass to go with it")
Currently Canon markets 1.6 crop sensor cameras mostly to the middle two categories - what I referred to as "consumers" and "prosumers." Formerly the 350D was aimed at consumers and the 30D at prosumers.
I have a hunch that Canon would eventually like to move prosumers up into the full-frame cameras. (Or, looked at from Canon's point of view, push full-frame cameras into the prosumer space.)
Replacing the 30D with a 1.3 crop sensor camera would effectively differentiate market groups by sensor size. (Tiny P&S sensors, 1.6 consumer sensors, in-between 1.3 prosumer sensors, and full-frame pro sensors.)
Given some of what we've heard and seen from Canon, I think it is more likely that they would like to see prosumers on full-frame cameras. I have a hunch that the 400D may become the high end 1.6x sensor camera before too long and that something (the 5D? a cheaper version of the 5D?) will draw prosumers away from crop sensor cameras. Along with that, Canon could eventually introduce a more basic and less expensive 1.6x body below the 400D.
While a full-frame "replacement" for the 30D segment would, indeed, be more expensive than the 30D, adjusted for inflation I doubt it would be more expensive than the "prosumer" models originally were. In addition, the full-frame sensor would bring sufficient increased perceived (and, I'd argue, real) value to convince quite a few more 20D/30D owners (and even this 350D owner) to upgrade.
(I acknowledge that I have absolutely no actual knowledge of Canon's plans - but you knew that, right? - and that there are complications to my theory. But what is a RUMORS forum if not for wild speculation?)
Dan...Show more →
If you check out the Canon White Paper, it certainly doesn't look according to them that there is any reason to expect FF at the 30D price point for ages.
My guess is that they can do a bit better than they have told us, and that there will indeed be a 7D around Feb, with 12MP and priced at perhaps $2500 intitially, gradually on offers and so on going for about $2100
That's why I am keen on the 1.3 - much more viable at teh 30D pice point.
For entry level, according to Chuck Westfall in his 'futures' paper, then EVF looks promising.
I'd expect that, perhaps as early as next autumn.
Regards,
DaveMart
There are reasons other than cost for a 1.6 crop, such as lighter telephoto lens, smaller camera size, etc. A successor to the 30D, in order to be a successor, has to be 1.6 crop. Canon has a huge tooling cost writeoff in EF-S lenses if they abandon this segment, even though they do want to push the full frame.
One thing to throw into the mix though. It's not necessarily in Canon's best interest to produce too many models - their R&D plus production costs will go up proportionally to the number of distinct models they have in a given line-up.
Davemart wrote: For entry level, according to Chuck Westfall in his 'futures' paper, then EVF looks promising.
David, You might be surprised soon. EVF is not just for entry level anymore. Visit Canon's stand at Photokina. I expect some new productline that will be introduced where EVF is part of the system (take system quite literally here). Just come to the main stage and wonder what is happening. Have EOSfun!
DaveMart wrote:
When I first posted the link to that, I was thinking about cameras so was focussing on maybe a new name inn the camera division.
That doesn't really fit the bill though, and the preview of their new SED based TV in association with Toshiba seems the likeliest guess to me - it is about the right time.
Regards,
DaveMart
Photokina seems a strange place to announce a television
David, You might be surprised soon. EVF is not just for entry level anymore. Visit Canon's stand at Photokina. I expect some new productline that will be introduced where EVF is part of the system (take system quite literally here). Just come to the main stage and wonder what is happening. Have EOSfun!
Will someone going to photokina slap eosfun around for disingenuous posting?
Photokina seems a strange place to announce a television. Yes he's wrong. This is not IFA or CES. The new "brand" is gonna be much more exciting and EOSfun for us photographers.
David, You might be surprised soon. EVF is not just for entry level anymore. Visit Canon's stand at Photokina. I expect some new productline that will be introduced where EVF is part of the system (take system quite literally here). Just come to the main stage and wonder what is happening. Have EOSfun!
I was being a bit cautious - I love the idea of EVF, if they used a good screen which is available now it could bring new capabilities to cameras, but a lot of people are pretty conservative about their OVF's, so I thougth it might be easier to intro them at entry level where people would be accustomed to the idea as many would be moving up from P & S cameras with EVF's.
There is also a bit of a gap at the bottom of the line-up, so it could fit in neatly there.
It would also make sense to introduce it as a new product line with video capabilities too, perhaps.
Regards,
DaveMart
So we're looking at a 'new brand' or rangefinder-esque camra based on an EVF, new lenses. G7 wasn't given more so as not to tread on the toes of this beast?
My reason for doing so is that certain forum quirks like auto-embedding, no edit-locks and removable time-stamps result, eventually, in someone leaving this forum. A source of great marchitectural insight exits stage left. I think that's a bad thing.
