'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

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Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Tom_W
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p.81 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaveMart wrote:
I don't understand all the angst about Canon not bringing out a new range this show.
They are certainly going to move to DIGICIII, and possibly to new sensors on their cameras.
The bigger the change the more difficult it is to get all your ducks in a row for it.
Now possibly they will make a complete mess of it, and put in horrendous software-based noise reductio to the detriment of real image quality, but I am pretty convinced that Canon at least feel that they are in the process of increasing both DR and noise performance.
If nothing happens by the spring, it might be time for some genuine concern.
Regards,
DaveMart

Dave, you're probably right about a lot of this. Canon isn't resting on its laurels as it appears.

The problem is that neither are the competitors. I've pointed out elsewhere that I'm not in the market for another body. But I am concerned that Canon is falling behind the competition, even it it's only a perceived loss (competitors have plenty of features, bells, and whistles, but the 30D's image quality is still high in its class). There are a few cameras that are knocking at the 30D's door in terms of image quality (high ISO notwithstanding) and outclass it in terms of features, some of which are quite useable.

The 400D/XTi was a smart move - Canon intends to stay competitive at the entry level. My take is that they need to carry that up to the next customer level (30D) to be effective. Of course, Canon knows their market better than I, but I see a tough row to hoe for Canon if they don't jump out at this level.

The pro gear market isn't as lively as the consumer market (though the 30D spans both). People are still happily shooting for profit with the 1D. A few anyway. When the replacement for the 1D IIn and/or the 1Ds II comes, it will be significant, I'm sure.

Sep 29, 2006 at 12:00 AM

Steve Brown
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p.81 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Thruout this and other threads the term "DigicIII" is mentioned. Does anyone actually know what it is? and would you please share? What will be the advantages of Digiclll?
Thanks Steve

Sep 29, 2006 at 03:24 AM

fr0z
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p.81 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Tentacle wrote:
Hey, but back to Photokina: I wonder what all that Birth of a New Brand brouhaha was about. Can anyone fill me in on what product line was introduced? I must have missed it.

http://www.canon.de/About_Us/News/Consumer_Releases/foto/media_storage_viewer.asp?ComponentID=396411&SourcePageID=25102

Sep 29, 2006 at 04:26 AM

Tentacle
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p.81 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Steve Brown wrote:
Thruout this and other threads the term "DigicIII" is mentioned. Does anyone actually know what it is? and would you please share? What will be the advantages of Digiclll?

This is quite a no-brainer.

- 300D and 10D: DIGIC chip
- 350/400D and 20/30D: DIGIC II chip
- Expected 40D: DIGIC III

So DIGIC III is a new generation of Canon's processing chip, with more processing power, higher I/O bandwith and some logical improvements based on those two primary improvements. The Powershot G7 with DIGIC III can recognise and track up to 9 faces for instance. It will allow faster write speeds to CF or SD card and the increased processing power will enable more sophisticated digital noise reduction algorithms.

Sep 29, 2006 at 08:19 AM

thw2
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p.81 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaveMart wrote:
They are certainly going to move to DIGICIII, and possibly to new sensors on their cameras.
The bigger the change the more difficult it is to get all your ducks in a row for it.
Now possibly they will make a complete mess of it, and put in horrendous software-based noise reductio to the detriment of real image quality

I am afraid that DIGIC III does NOT look promising from this comparison:

"http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=1&mo1=213&p1=1087&ma2=1&mo2=248&p2=1419&ph=4"

Choose 'Barbie, extrait, sans flash' from the Etape 3 dropdown option.

Canon SD700 IS (Europe IXUS 800 IS) on the left and SD800 IS (Europe IXUS 850 IS) on the right.

SD700 has 6 MP and uses DIGIC II while SD800 has 7 MP and uses DIGIC III.

Look how DIGIC III destroys detail thru' heavy noise reduction. Sorry, but there's no sophisticated noise reduction algorithm here... just killing the noise as well as the details. Sigh... what a letdown.

Sep 29, 2006 at 09:11 AM

DaveMart
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p.81 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

thw2 wrote:
DaveMart wrote:
They are certainly going to move to DIGICIII, and possibly to new sensors on their cameras.
The bigger the change the more difficult it is to get all your ducks in a row for it.
Now possibly they will make a complete mess of it, and put in horrendous software-based noise reductio to the detriment of real image quality

I am afraid that DIGIC III does NOT look promising from this comparison:

"http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=1&mo1=213&p1=1087&ma2=1&mo2=248&p2=1419&ph=4"

Choose 'Barbie, extrait, sans flash' from the Etape 3 dropdown option.

Canon SD700 IS (Europe IXUS 800 IS) on the left and SD800 IS (Europe IXUS 850 IS) on the right.

SD700 has 6 MP and uses DIGIC II while SD800 has 7 MP and uses DIGIC III.

Look how DIGIC III destroys detail thru' heavy noise reduction. Sorry, but there's no sophisticated noise reduction algorithm here... just killing the noise as well as the details. Sigh... what a letdown.

Well, colour me pink and call me a Pentaxian! Or purple in the case of the SD800.
Looks like Canon have given up on IQ.
If they are using DIGICIII to smear the noise around a little rather than try to make any real enhancements, they have had it.
Regards,
DaveMart

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:16 AM

Tentacle
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p.81 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Yeah, but don't confuse agressive digital NR on a digicompact with DIGIC III in a dSLR.

Again that Canon Full Frame White Paper: there are also hardware-based noise elimination techniques, so do not expect DIGIC III to wreck IQ on the upcoming 40D just yet.

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:21 AM

Rusty1
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p.81 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Sep 29, 2006 at 11:08 AM

DaveMart
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p.81 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Tentacle wrote:
Yeah, but don't confuse agressive digital NR on a digicompact with DIGIC III in a dSLR.

Again that Canon Full Frame White Paper: there are also hardware-based noise elimination techniques, so do not expect DIGIC III to wreck IQ on the upcoming 40D just yet.

Possibly. It is obviously incorrect to draw a one for one correlation between the compacts and the DSLR's, as for starters it is Canon's CMOS in the DSLR.
OTOH, the compacts perhaps tell us somehting of the state of the battle between marketing and the technical guys, a battle which happens in all companies.
The marketing guys seem to be decisively on top in the compact market, to the detriment of IQ.
It doesn't engender optimism as to what is going on in the DSLR's.
The promise of more DR and ISO up to higher levels starts to sound threatening rather than a cause for optimism.
Regards,
DaveMart

Sep 29, 2006 at 11:18 AM

DaveMart
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p.81 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Rusty1 wrote:
DaveMart wrote:
I don't understand all the angst about Canon not bringing out a new range this show.
They are certainly going to move to DIGICIII, and possibly to new sensors on their cameras.
The bigger the change the more difficult it is to get all your ducks in a row for it.
Now possibly they will make a complete mess of it, and put in horrendous software-based noise reductio to the detriment of real image quality, but I am pretty convinced that Canon at least feel that they are in the process of increasing both DR and noise performance.
If nothing happens by the spring, it might be time for some genuine concern.
Regards,
DaveMart

Well there is speculation Canon has worked on a non-bayer sensor. But with what success who knows?

This technology was never intended for release until at least another couple of years have gone by, AFAIK.
Regards,
DaveMart

Sep 29, 2006 at 11:19 AM

echomancer
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p.81 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I think it's funny that people are talking about how canon is starting to fall behind or how they may be losing steam. You guys won't be saying that in February when (most likely) a whole new slew of products are released that crush the compeition! We just have to be patient. Now let's all get back to taking pretty pictures.

BTW: My 30D arrives today, and I couldn't be happier!!!!!! This is going to be a great weekend!

Sep 29, 2006 at 01:05 PM

joebee
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p.81 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

thw2 wrote:
I am afraid that DIGIC III does NOT look promising from this comparison:

"http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=1&ma1=1&mo1=213&p1=1087&ma2=1&mo2=248&p2=1419&ph=4"

Choose 'Barbie, extrait, sans flash' from the Etape 3 dropdown option.

The Digic III is working on a the image from a very small sensor. I would be surprised if degree of noise reduction is fixed. I would guess the camera's firmware has parameters to control the degree of noise reduction. The quality of the image is a major factor in the detail loss. A higher quality image would require less aggressive niose reduction.

The Digic III features mentioned in the the press releases on the new compact cameras do not represent all the features in the new chip. I am sure Canon has included features targeted for the 1D series that will only be revealed when they release new 1D cameras.

The face recognision feature or on camera flash may not be included in a new 5D or 1D . The Digic III has features to address needs for the range from high end compacts to top of the line. Each camera will impliment the features marketing identifies are needed for that camera.

Sep 29, 2006 at 01:14 PM

Koivulehto
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p.81 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

fr0z wrote:
Tentacle wrote:
Hey, but back to Photokina: I wonder what all that Birth of a New Brand brouhaha was about. Can anyone fill me in on what product line was introduced? I must have missed it.

http://www.canon.de/About_Us/News/Consumer_Releases/foto/media_storage_viewer.asp?ComponentID=396411&SourcePageID=25102

Yes, those "M series" image tanks must be the new brand. Are they also built like tanks, as is frequently said about Canon's pro cameras?

Isn't M1 a different kind of tank?

Wonder if that is where they got the idea for this M letter ...

Brouhaha is exactly what I think of this new brand hype. A nice toy except for a few professionals whom it might serve a business purpose. The rest of us will choose between either
- our laptop + 9.95 EUR (or less) CF->PCMCIA adapter (works also in employer's laptop since you don't need to install any SW), and
- this new "brand" product

Sep 29, 2006 at 02:59 PM

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p.81 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

By focusing on the compacts, one may lose sight of the overall strategy. To me, the removal of RAW from the S80 and now the G7 can also suggest that they want to shift the high IQ customers into the DSLRs. So maybe marketing issues become more dominant in P/S, but that does not mean the DSLRs will go that way. Put differently, the correlation may in fact be negative, not positive.

DaveMart wrote:
Possibly. It is obviously incorrect to draw a one for one correlation between the compacts and the DSLR's, as for starters it is Canon's CMOS in the DSLR.
OTOH, the compacts perhaps tell us somehting of the state of the battle between marketing and the technical guys, a battle which happens in all companies.
The marketing guys seem to be decisively on top in the compact market, to the detriment of IQ.
It doesn't engender optimism as to what is going on in the DSLR's.
The promise of more DR and ISO up to higher levels starts to sound threatening rather than a cause for optimism.
Regards,
DaveMart

Sep 29, 2006 at 03:38 PM

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p.81 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Hey, but back to Photokina: I wonder what all that Birth of a New Brand brouhaha was about. Can anyone fill me in on what product line was introduced? I must have missed it.

No one else been to Koeln?At the booth indicated with "new brand" wasn't the place where those storage units have been presented, but some general EOS information. I am almost sure this M30 image tank has nothing to do with the "New Brand". I got the impression something made Canon decide to not introduce that "New Brand" at all this Photokina. Could it be they kept the introduction of the New Brand for some later moment in the near future? Did Canon reserve some boothspace to be able to introduce the new brand in case the competition would have forced them to show their state of the art product? Did Canon expect some introduction of the competition that stayed under the curtain and did it make them decide to not introduce their new flagship DIGICIII D-SLR? There could be good reasons for that. Extension of the life cycle of some of their current products, focus attention to their money makers like 400D and IXUS models. I was surprise by the lack of that new introduction but not really disappointed. It is however the second presence of Canon at a great exhibition where they do not meet expectations of a part of their audience. The 30D has not been the success product that the typical Canon audience expected. This time the G7 is the same kind of underwhelming introduction. Even though the 400D introduction is interesting and important for those camera dealer that want to buy their stock for the holiday season, the lack of a new overwhelming product that surprises all of us, the lack of that "new brand" took away some glamour of the traditional Photokina happening and of the leadership position that Canon quantitavely still keeps but loses because of the closing of the gap qualitatively. Let's hope a new brand will give us some extra EOSfun at PMA next spring.

Sep 29, 2006 at 03:39 PM

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p.81 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

"By focusing on the compacts, one may lose sight of the overall strategy. To me, the removal of RAW from the S80 and now the G7 can also suggest that they want to shift the high IQ customers into the DSLRs. So maybe marketing issues become more dominant in P/S, but that does not mean the DSLRs will go that way. Put differently, the correlation may in fact be negative, not positive."

I still have this hunch that Canon (and others) will have to drive down the entry level DSLR prices before too much longer, and this might be in line with that.

My totally baseless theory remains that the market currently served by the crop sensor 30D will be offered a "low end full frame" camera before too long - likely at a somewhat higher price, but not as high as the 5D - and that another crop sensor DSLR could appear below the 400D.

This is total speculation and I'm sure people will have lots of great reasons to doubt it - many of them valid. However, I can imagine a product lineup in which the "consumer DSLRs" were all crop sensor cameras priced below $1000 and included the current 400D (or equivalent) and something less expensive. (Which would also be competitive with some of the new models from other manufacturers). Then the "prosumer" market would move to full-frame bodies. (I know, I know - the folks who photograph birds with long lenses may not like this, but they'll carry on at least as well as they did in the 35mm era.)

FWIW...

Dan

Sep 29, 2006 at 04:10 PM

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p.81 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

eosfun wrote:
Let's hope a new brand will give us some extra EOSfun at PMA next spring.

Hey, wait a minute! Weren't you one of the ones shouting about "Just wait til you see it, it's going to be cool when it's announced at Photokina!!!"

Well, I marked your words (I think it was you, anyway

)... You sound like you don't have any more idea what happened than anyone else around here! Huh?

Sep 29, 2006 at 04:20 PM

JRMDC
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p.81 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

It seems like such a no-brainer that they keep the XT around for at least another year and lower its price by another $150, to compete directly with the D50 and other bodies. It's a nice camera, still great in many dimensions. And ZERO product development costs! But I am not a Canon executive...

danmitchell wrote:
I still have this hunch that Canon (and others) will have to drive down the entry level DSLR prices before too much longer, and this might be in line with that.

My totally baseless theory remains that the market currently served by the crop sensor 30D will be offered a "low end full frame" camera before too long - likely at a somewhat higher price, but not as high as the 5D - and that another crop sensor DSLR could appear below the 400D.

This is total speculation and I'm sure people will have lots of great reasons to doubt it - many of them valid. However, I can imagine a product lineup in which the "consumer DSLRs" were all crop sensor cameras priced below $1000 and included the current 400D (or equivalent) and something less expensive. (Which would also be competitive with some of the new models from other manufacturers). Then the "prosumer" market would move to full-frame bodies. (I know, I know - the folks who photograph birds with long lenses may not like this, but they'll carry on at least as well as they did in the 35mm era.)

FWIW...

Dan

Sep 29, 2006 at 04:25 PM

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p.81 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Part of the problem is that each of us knows what we would do to make the next Canon the perfect camera.

The other part of the problem is that none of us have any abiity to make those dreams become a reality.

In terms of them not releasing anything of great importance, we are looking at their marketing decisions from our perspective not theirs. Could be that the technology is not there yet or not ready. Could be that they are trying to maximize profits from past R&D cycles. Could be that they consider their 70th anniversity a more important event than Photokina. Could be a decision that since we will bitch about whatever they release that they have decided that our segment of the market isn't worth the aggravation. Just kidding on the last one but I suspect that much of the frustration comes from an inability to exert any influence on a matter that we consider important. Wish it were different but the reality is that it isn't.

Sep 29, 2006 at 05:18 PM

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p.81 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

http://www.canon.co.uk/About_Us/News/Consumer_Releases/2H06_News/Digital_Media_Storage.asp?ComponentID=397330&SourcePageID=26019#1

English version of the Canon Media Storage M30

Sep 29, 2006 at 05:37 PM

charlesteton
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p.81 #21 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

More info on:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1159267429.html
http://www.photokina-show.com/0426/canon/usbflashdrive/canonm30/

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NPICS1/MEDIA_STORAGE_M80_1_L.JPG

Edited by Jeff on Sep 29, 2006 at 06:34 PM GMT (Reason: un-embedded link[s] to copyrighted material)

Sep 29, 2006 at 05:50 PM

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p.81 #22 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

eosfun wrote on page 211 http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/436826/210 of this thread:
Davemart wrote: For entry level, according to Chuck Westfall in his 'futures' paper, then EVF looks promising.

David, You might be surprised soon. EVF is not just for entry level anymore. Visit Canon's stand at Photokina. I expect some new productline that will be introduced where EVF is part of the system (take system quite literally here). Just come to the main stage and wonder what is happening. Have EOSfun!

As Jeff just said, it definitely sounded like EOSfun would have known something ...

OK, I don't blame him, since his post inspired me to start the "mirrorless EVF bodies" speculation, which I found very intriguing.

Sep 29, 2006 at 06:01 PM

DaveMart
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p.81 #23 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Koivulehto wrote:
eosfun wrote on page 211 http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/436826/210 of this thread:
Davemart wrote: For entry level, according to Chuck Westfall in his 'futures' paper, then EVF looks promising.

David, You might be surprised soon. EVF is not just for entry level anymore. Visit Canon's stand at Photokina. I expect some new productline that will be introduced where EVF is part of the system (take system quite literally here). Just come to the main stage and wonder what is happening. Have EOSfun!

As Jeff just said, it definitely sounded like EOSfun would have known something ...

OK, I don't blame him, since his post inspired me to start the "mirrorless EVF bodies" speculation, which I found very intriguing.

We had fun, anyway, didn't we? - and a penny gets you a pound that we will see EVIL cameras sometime, not too far away
Pentax and Sigma have been the most exciting things at this show though..
Life is full of disappointments - ask my wife - so it doesn't bother me at all if we have indulged in a bit of speculation!
Regards,
DaveMart

Sep 29, 2006 at 06:26 PM

Koivulehto
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p.81 #24 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Yes, we had a lot of fun, and it is quite possible that we caught a glimpse of the future of digital system cameras. That's what I meant with intriguing, though I had to check the word after reading Dave's post.

intrigue – verb 1. to arouse the curiosity or interest of by unusual, new, or otherwise fascinating or compelling qualities; appeal strongly to; captivate

Sep 29, 2006 at 08:15 PM

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p.81 #25 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Canon probably is ahead of their product launch roadmap in terms of development and staging. If they move too fast, it may force the type of cut-throat competition that we saw in personal computer products. They don’t wan’t that. We (consumers) do.

Products like the Pentax K10D and the new Sigma, help stimulate the development curve of the industry as a whole. Canon probably sees these products as no threat even though they may lose customers. The loss in customers may be offset by the number of people that decided to get a 5D, but wanted to wait incase something new came out at Photokina.

I would bet Canon’s next product is ready for production. I wouldn’t expect to see it until we see a fall off in sales of their current offerings.

Jim

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:06 PM


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