'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

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Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Tom_W
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p.43 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Canon will retain 2 levels of APS-C cameras. That's what the market wants. They wouldn't have produced the 17-55/2.8 IS if they didn't have intentions of keeping something at the 30D level.

Aug 30, 2006 at 01:57 AM

jwil
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p.43 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

10DFT wrote:
Canon will retain 2 levels of APS-C cameras. That's what the market wants. They wouldn't have produced the 17-55/2.8 IS if they didn't have intentions of keeping something at the 30D level.

Exactly.

Hey, look, I kept it under 1000 words this time

Aug 30, 2006 at 02:00 AM

timbop
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p.43 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

jwil wrote:
10DFT wrote:
Canon will retain 2 levels of APS-C cameras. That's what the market wants. They wouldn't have produced the 17-55/2.8 IS if they didn't have intentions of keeping something at the 30D level.

Exactly.

Hey, look, I kept it under 1000 words this time

Fantastic! Now we all agree, and it only took 135 pages!

Aug 30, 2006 at 03:18 AM

joebee
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p.43 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaveMart wrote:
[
Hopefully Nikon has some tricks up theeir sleeve as well - it is just a bit easier to read Canon, as they give more info - and if it is not all total bull, they have made progress with their sensors.
Regards,
DaveMart

The progress is either Sony's or in processing. Since there is some difference between Sony and Nikon reported performance, I would say the processor is the difference.

Increased dynamic range or high ISO performance will require larger pixels. Canon currently has the advantage in this area. I would not be surprised if these improvements from use of the DIGIC III move the FF cameras into a higher level relative to 1.6 cameras.

Aug 30, 2006 at 04:37 AM

DaveMart
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p.43 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

joebee wrote:
DaveMart wrote:
[
Hopefully Nikon has some tricks up theeir sleeve as well - it is just a bit easier to read Canon, as they give more info - and if it is not all total bull, they have made progress with their sensors.
Regards,
DaveMart

The progress is either Sony's or in processing. Since there is some difference between Sony and Nikon reported performance, I would say the processor is the difference.

Increased dynamic range or high ISO performance will require larger pixels. Canon currently has the advantage in this area. I would not be surprised if these improvements from use of the DIGIC III move the FF cameras into a higher level relative to 1.6 cameras.
I assume that there is a typo there, and by the 'processor making the difference' you mena 'the processing making the difference'
Dunno if I agree with your other point, that improvements in DR and noise will need larger pixels.
The only way I can see the info (or misinformation?) from Canon working is if they are able to do something across the range - and in any case if they move the 1 series to 22MP it will only have the same size pixels as the 30D - the only one with really large pixels would be the 5D.
They seem to think that they can improve the fundamental sensitivity of the sensro - fantastic, if true.
My gguess is that the 400D will be thee last Canon to use DIGC II - that is a possible reason to delay other launches - they use the 400D to hoover up Christmas sales, but it is basically obsolete after they release DIGIC III sinc they can do better DR, and now have the bits, possibly using 14bit, to record it.
It's quite tricky getting the introduction of new technology right, and sorting out which model to introduce it in - Canon rarely debut new technology at the top of the range, testing it first in lower models, often at a level just above the medium level, some sort of EOS 3, so we may yet see something along those lines.
Regards,
DaveMart

Aug 30, 2006 at 08:39 AM

canong3
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p.43 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I was wondering:
Lately in some Canon's pdf I've seen information that Canon is a major sponsor of Champion's League that is round the corner - September if memory serves.
So my guess is that new camera was already mentioned in this thread and I also don't care how they call it.

Sport shooters don't need 22 MPx

But I just hope to see some NEW, TOP GLASS.
This time only! doesn't have to be prime.

Aug 30, 2006 at 09:04 AM

hfillmore
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p.43 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Noticed that BH is selling the MKIIn for $3484 under the PSAUG discount code. That's about the cheapest I've seen it from a source as reliable as BH. Makes me think something is about to happen in the 3-5k price range.

Harvey

Aug 30, 2006 at 10:17 AM

bad_doggie
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p.43 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

joebee wrote:
Increased dynamic range or high ISO performance will require larger pixels. Canon currently has the advantage in this area. I would not be surprised if these improvements from use of the DIGIC III move the FF cameras into a higher level relative to 1.6 cameras.

its almost always wrong to say something *must* be engineered only in one way. e.g. i could imagine increased dynamic range being done in software, much the same way as folks do it now (multiple exposures, over or under exposed by a few f-stops, blended in software), which could be done by having more pixels, sampled at different iso's. high iso performance requires increasing signal-to-noise, which can also be done by reducing noise, not just increasing signal.

i don't have a good picture of where "digic iii" fits in here. this doesn't refer to the sensor technology, right? all the p&s's now claim they use 'digic ii' like the grown-up cameras. doesn't this chip just do stuff like white balance, raw->jpeg, exposure, etc?

Aug 30, 2006 at 11:32 AM

ISO1600
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p.43 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

$3484 is still -ALOT- when you consider how much a used 1DII is.

if they were to drop something in that price range (again), it had better be a definite jump in features/technology, otherwise i don't see the point. I don't think the small price drop of the IIn is worth speculating a new product over though.

Aug 30, 2006 at 11:54 AM

RDKirk
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p.43 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Finally, Canon has commited to APS-C sensors with a line of EF-S lenses. It would also not make sense to have them compatible with only 10% of their bodies (if you include both film and digital). I think it's safe to say the APS-C will be around for quite some time on the consumer end.

The senior Canon-Europe exec has said that all but the cheapest Canon DSLRs will have 24x36mm sensors in the near future, but that a totally "full-frame" lineup was much farther away.

I take this to mean that APS-C will remain in the Canon lineup as far into the future as Canon has made any actual plans. "All but the cheapest", IMO could well involve more than one simultaneously produced Rebel model, but certainly does not include a "professional-grade" camera.

I would be willing to lay money down that Canon will not introduce an under $2000 FF camera until 2008 at the earliest. Too many things need to come together to make that happen.

I would agree that the least expensive 24x36mm body is likely to be around $2500 for at least two more years, possibly four, with increased features and capabilities appearing on the camera at that price point over the course of that time.

Aug 30, 2006 at 11:55 AM

tom2517
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p.43 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

RDKirk wrote:

Finally, Canon has commited to APS-C sensors with a line of EF-S lenses. It would also not make sense to have them compatible with only 10% of their bodies (if you include both film and digital). I think it's safe to say the APS-C will be around for quite some time on the consumer end.

The senior Canon-Europe exec has said that all but the cheapest Canon DSLRs will have 24x36mm sensors in the near future, but that a totally "full-frame" lineup was much farther away.

I take this to mean that APS-C will remain in the Canon lineup as far into the future as Canon has made any actual plans. "All but the cheapest", IMO could well involve more than one simultaneously produced Rebel model, but certainly does not include a "professional-grade" camera.

I would be willing to lay money down that Canon will not introduce an under $2000 FF camera until 2008 at the earliest. Too many things need to come together to make that happen.

I would agree that the least expensive 24x36mm body is likely to be around $2500 for at least two more years, possibly four, with increased features and capabilities appearing on the camera at that price point over the course of that time.

I agree. I have translated an interview with Canon Japan executives a while ago, and they are committed to the APS-C format. They will continue to make both format as long as there are demands. And that they will develop more EF-S lens.

Aug 30, 2006 at 02:21 PM

joebee
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p.43 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

bad_doggie wrote:

its almost always wrong to say something *must* be engineered only in one way. e.g. i could imagine increased dynamic range being done in software, much the same way as folks do it now (multiple exposures, over or under exposed by a few f-stops, blended in software), which could be done by having more pixels, sampled at different iso's. high iso performance requires increasing signal-to-noise, which can also be done by reducing noise, not just increasing signal.

i don't have a good picture of where "digic iii" fits in here. this doesn't refer to the sensor technology, right? all the p&s's now claim they use 'digic ii' like the grown-up cameras. doesn't this chip just do stuff like white balance, raw->jpeg, exposure, etc?

The DIGIC II does all most all functions in the Camera. The cost to design the chip is very high while production costs are low enough to include in $200/cameras. They may be using lower speed DIGIC II chips in the compacts. Those that fail for use in 400D/30D/20D/5D/1D's may be fine for the compacts. The DIGIC II link talks about signal processing as a task for the chip. Moving from 12 bit to 14 bit or higher would require a chip with wider registers/paths/etc. I believe the analog to digital conversion occurs on the sensor chip.

I would agree there are different ways to design for higher ISO's and dynamic range. The improvements in signal to noise ratios have been slow and incremental since the 10D was introduced. Canon could introduce a sensor with a CMOS version of Fuji's SuperCCD SR. Canon may introduce a major advance in S/N.

From all the talk of DIGIC III producing a raw file with 14 bit data converted to 16 bit with software. I would guess the DIGIC III was be designed to process 16 bit data when Canon can produce a sensor that can provide 16 bit data. I could see a 24MP camera with a 14 bit sensor and a 12MP or smaller camera with a 16 bit sensor

Aug 30, 2006 at 03:23 PM

The Image
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p.43 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

new canon source says 1dsmkIII is done and just waiting for production, possible release date in nov or dec or early 07 http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html

Aug 30, 2006 at 03:28 PM

DaveMart
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p.43 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

5D Successor to be: 'Better than you can imagine'
"I did know that they were working on the 85 f/1.2L and 50 f/1.2L that I told you earlier. Canon R&D is working on new DSLRs. We'll see 3D, successor of 5D and DRebel. I have no information about the 40D. They're also working on a series of non L wide angle lenses such as 24, 28, and 35. There're no plan, or I don't know, to replace 24L and 35L. R&D has many different groups working on different project. I only know one. So my information is only 70% accurate. Don't buy anything now especially the 30D and 5D. Dell is offering 25% off for the 5D. You should now why. The 5D successor is better than you can imagine. All DSLRs will have a big jump in performance. The pushed out the 30D just to buy time and fill the gap."
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=19809906
After Photokina, it seems though
Don't want to mess up the 400D by looking like they are selling old technology - gotta get the Christmas business first.
Regards,
DaveMart

Aug 30, 2006 at 03:44 PM

dcmiller
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p.43 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

tom mcconville wrote:
new canon source says 1dsmkIII is done and just waiting for production, possible release date in nov or dec or early 07 http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html

I like this rumor. It explains the mass confusion on when the camera will be released. What is Canon's fiscal year? They may be having a good year and wanted to push the profit forward. More likely, there are too many 1DsII still in the channel. I see B&H is still selling the original 1Ds.
By "pushing production" they mean final assembly. That would also allow Canon to turn out more 400 around the launch date. They could then look at initial demand at launch of the 400 and decide when to change part of their assembly capacity over to the 1DsIII.
Perhaps not true, but a rumor I can live with.

Aug 30, 2006 at 04:05 PM

stevesanacore
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p.43 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I have been waiting for the 1DsMk2 replacement since before the 5D came out. I can't imagine they are selling any Mk2's over the past year when anyone with half a brain knows it is very long in the tooth and way behind in many features. I am holding off moving to the medium formats waiting and waiting for the new Canon, but I can't wait too much longer. I am sure I am not the only one in this position.

Aug 30, 2006 at 04:35 PM

cdTzabcan
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p.43 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I wonder if Fred is drafting an invoice to send to Canon for providing 136 pages of in-depth, focus group-style feedback from some of their most "enthusiastic" customers...

Some corporations have to pay big money for this much insight into their customer base...

Aug 30, 2006 at 04:43 PM

The Image
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p.43 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Aug 30, 2006 at 05:32 PM

jwil
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p.43 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

cdTzabcan wrote:
I wonder if Fred is drafting an invoice to send to Canon for providing 136 pages of in-depth, focus group-style feedback from some of their most "enthusiastic" customers...

Some corporations have to pay big money for this much insight into their customer base...

I'm quite sure Canon already read this.

Aug 30, 2006 at 05:40 PM

timbop
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p.43 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaveMart wrote:
5D Successor to be: 'Better than you can imagine'
"I did know that they were working on the 85 f/1.2L and 50 f/1.2L that I told you earlier. Canon R&D is working on new DSLRs. We'll see 3D, successor of 5D and DRebel. I have no information about the 40D. They're also working on a series of non L wide angle lenses such as 24, 28, and 35. There're no plan, or I don't know, to replace 24L and 35L. R&D has many different groups working on different project. I only know one. So my information is only 70% accurate. Don't buy anything now especially the 30D and 5D. Dell is offering 25% off for the 5D. You should now why. The 5D successor is better than you can imagine. All DSLRs will have a big jump in performance. The pushed out the 30D just to buy time and fill the gap."
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=19809906
After Photokina, it seems though
Don't want to mess up the 400D by looking like they are selling old technology - gotta get the Christmas business first.
Regards,
DaveMart

Remember, if it sounds too good to be true......

Canon R&D is excellent, but maybe we are all hoping for a little too much and rumors like that one play on our "hopes". Personally there is no way I'm going to be able to afford any of these new uber-cameras, I am just hoping that used 1Dm2's come down to my price range.

Aug 30, 2006 at 05:56 PM

OceanView
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p.43 #21 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

stevesanacore wrote:

I have been waiting for the 1DsMk2 replacement since before the 5D came out. I can't imagine they are selling any Mk2's over the past year when anyone with half a brain knows it is very long in the tooth and way behind in many features. I am holding off moving to the medium formats waiting and waiting for the new Canon, but I can't wait too much longer. I am sure I am not the only one in this position.

If you can't wait, buy a used 5D for the interim.
It will do a fine job until the new 1D comes out.
Once the new camera arrives, you can sell the 5D and get the new 1D and you should be fine.

That's what I would do.

Aug 30, 2006 at 06:32 PM

dcmiller
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p.43 #22 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I pity the poor junior marketing person at Canon that reads our rambling. After a year of two they are off to the monastery or insane asylum.

"Where's Bob?" "Well... he was assigned to read the Canon forums" "Oh, I'm so sorry. Are you sending flowers?"

Aug 30, 2006 at 06:34 PM

canong3
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p.43 #23 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

timbop wrote:
Remember, if it sounds too good to be true......

Canon R&D is excellent, but maybe we are all hoping for a little too much and rumors like that one play on our "hopes". Personally there is no way I'm going to be able to afford any of these new uber-cameras, I am just hoping that used 1Dm2's come down to my price range.
I think Canon R&D is yeeeeeeears ahead. Canon marketing is like 3 years ahead......
It's interesting whether the guy is talking about new 5D replacement or new camera. If new camera then why get excited? It is different price tag for sure.
"There can be only one LEGEND..... and I hope you don't think it's 50/1.2L.....
Search the thread.... Again the new lenses is what I'm interested in this time.

Aug 30, 2006 at 08:17 PM

Flappie
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p.43 #24 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I predicted the arrival of the EFs 17-55 mm /2.8 before the announcement . My reasoning was quite simple : the 5D created some abiguity on Canon plans, and this lens would show Canons commitment to APS

The XXD series will be APS for the coming years . Anything else would be suicide. The 5D shows that FF is not valued by everyone, and a FF XXD would always be much much more expensive than the Nikon bodies in the same class (and the lenses even more). There clearly is a very profitable $/€ 1000-1250 EUR market, and a FF does not fit in this price range

F

Aug 30, 2006 at 09:57 PM

chaosman
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p.43 #25 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

canong3 wrote:
I think Canon R&D is yeeeeeeears ahead. Canon marketing is like 3 years ahead......

I think you are talking about Canon R&D and not Marketing ...

Kai

Aug 30, 2006 at 10:00 PM


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