Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

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Archive 2006 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Andi Dietrich
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p.20 #1 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

There is a german ingenieur (english?) which makes funny cameras prepared for stiching. Cant give more detail on this, just discovered the homepage.

http://gottschalt.de/index.html

May 08, 2006 at 05:28 PM

Lotusm50
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p.20 #2 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

ingenieur = engineer

May 08, 2006 at 06:18 PM

netexpress
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p.20 #3 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Off topic... I've wondered about this before and gotten conflicting information on what is involved in the H1 to H2 upgrade. So I thought I'd share this in case anyone else was wondering.

I called the main Hasselblad Server Center in NJ today and spoke to Paul (x209) to get a complete story on the $500 option to upgrade an H1 body to an H2 body.

They upgrade an actual circuit board in the grip. This upgraded circuit board has two new features:

1) It allows the camera’s rechargeable battery to power both the camera and a Hasselblad CFH back at the same time. The older chip only allows the battery to power the camera and not the back. This upgrade only supports Hasselblad CFH backs and not other brands of backs which would still require their own power source. So it would be irrelevant if you choose an Aptus or Phase One back for example.

2) The new circuit board also allows the firmware to read the Digital Apo-Chromatic lens Correction data (DAC) from the lens and then write this data into the raw image file on a Hasselblad CFH back. This allows the DAC data to be read by their RAW processing software to make additional corrections for a specific lens when converting from RAW. However, this feature only works when using a Hasselblad CFH back. It does not work with other brands of backs. So it would be irrelevant if you choose an Aptus or Phase One back for example.

In addition to the circuit board they also include the new higher amp model of the 7.2V Li-Ion rechargeable batter pack (which can be purchased separately as well). They upgrade the sticker to say H2 instead of H1 and they upgrade the firmware.

May 08, 2006 at 07:02 PM

glowrider
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p.20 #4 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

If you're thinking about it as 20k more, then you are thinking about this in the wrong way. An MFDB is incredibly versatile. Put it on your MF cam in the morning, on your LF cam in the afternoon, and at night, play around with your Cambo wide. Imagine if you could slap your Canon sensor on different cameras when you please?

Consider that this is an investment for at least a few years. Divide the cost over each of the cameras and the time you're going to have it. And then consider the upgrade paths offered by each company, regardless of brand. I know someone who bought a Valeo 11 kit for 12 grand, used it for 3 years, and then got 11,400 of credit towards his new Aptus 75. These are not made up numbers. 600$ for 3 years of use. The back paid for itself in like 3-6 shoots, and turned a profit after the first shoot when you consider the upgrade path. Then consider that depreciation is vastly more than 600$ over three years, and the initial tax write off...

All that said, if you're not using this for business, then maybe there is a dilemma, but if your work calls for MF, then there really is no 'dilemma'. The only question is which back is right for you. If A) you don't do this for a living or a distant B) You're just a really rich amateur who wants the biggest toys and can afford to drop 30k with no problem, this is all just mental masturbation.

Edited by glowrider on May 08, 2006 at 02:06 PM GMT

May 08, 2006 at 07:03 PM

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p.20 #5 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Roland-
Unless you're using the HasselCon/ImaBlad back there is absolutely no reason for the upgrade, and that comes right from their lead techie @ Hassy Jersey.

May 08, 2006 at 07:05 PM

Lotusm50
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p.20 #6 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

glowrider wrote:
The only question is which back is right for you. If A) you don't do this for a living or a distant B) You're just a really rich amateur who wants the biggest toys and can afford to drop 30k with no problem, this is all just mental masturbation.

I knew this would be a sticky subject...

May 08, 2006 at 08:45 PM

netexpress
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p.20 #7 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Beep!

Darn, I think we need to add a 3 second dely on this forum.

May 09, 2006 at 06:28 PM

EZepeda
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p.20 #8 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Hey, David's on solid ground here. Those are some of the very points that led me to make the leap. But key is having a clear need for an investment of this magnitude. If you and your clients are satisfied with the quality of your work, be it a 35 dslr or a Holga you'd be crazy at this level to just leap right in. I just saw a 1/3 page 1Ds shot of mine that was published back in SF and it looks great. Of course I know the 24 TS-E is a bit soft at the corners, but in print, at that resolution, does anybody but me care? My client is happy as hell because they got the publicity that they were hoping to get by hiring me. I'm quite happy with my decision, but it's definitely not for everyone.

Do we a new thread just on mfdb technique? I'm quite happy with what Guy has started, but it definitely wanders to and fro...

May 09, 2006 at 07:44 PM

eronald
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p.20 #9 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

EZepeda wrote:
I just saw a 1/3 page 1Ds shot of mine that was published back in SF and it looks great. Of course I know the 24 TS-E is a bit soft at the corners, but in print, at that resolution, does anybody but me care? My client is happy as hell because they got the publicity that they were hoping to get by hiring me. I'm quite happy with my decision, but it's definitely not for everyone.

Do we a new thread just on mfdb technique? I'm quite happy with what Guy has started, but it definitely wanders to and fro...

I just received a printed brochure with shots I did in Venice (the lagoon place) with my 1DsII and 24TSE , and checked it against my proofs - one image is poster-sized, all the text is overlayed over my pictures. Well, the quality is so far below the proofs that I could have shot it with a 3MP camera, no problemo. I guess I'm at 4x the resolution I needed. But it did need the shift lens. Oh, and yes, the client chose my shots and not those of the catalog house that usually does their product art - and I'm sure the catalog house has better toys to play with.

We have to admit that our search for quality is mostly for our own benefit, not for the client.
Is this pursuit of perfection, this obsession with technical precision, useless ? No ! Because the concentration with which we view our own images allows us to preview the next batch of images mentally !

As for a new thread on DB technique - no, here is fine. I think what we need is to throw the "abstract" stuff into this thread here. Yes, there's a back in my future, but I see it three years away, because a crop-frame back is ridiculous !

Edmund

May 09, 2006 at 08:21 PM

ajmichael
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p.20 #10 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Bump - this thread seems to have gone to sleep!

Andy

May 22, 2006 at 01:11 PM

gogopix
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p.20 #11 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Well, maybe needed a rest period.

But this is a prime area of concern. I am still on fence relative to P45 but the new sales people sent me a file and an LCC correct
my conclusion

Phase One needs a better US sales organization!

Michael Reichmann material far more useful. Now, if I could just eliminate middle man

But seriously, who else has P25 and still not sure. Yes there is a difference, but who can really see it?

regards
victor

May 22, 2006 at 06:06 PM

eronald
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p.20 #12 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I think Photokina will see a breakdown of the atrocious MF pricing. If Canon really goes to 16 bits/22MP, then the back manufacturers are going to have real problems justifying their pricing. I also foresee a cheap integrated Hasselblad solution, and a nice little Hasselblad H3 with no facilities for Phase and Leaf

Edmund

May 22, 2006 at 08:07 PM

gogopix
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p.20 #13 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

over we go

May 23, 2006 at 02:16 AM

Lotusm50
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p.20 #14 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

eronald wrote:
I think Photokina will see a breakdown of the atrocious MF pricing. If Canon really goes to 16 bits/22MP, then the back manufacturers are going to have real problems justifying their pricing. I also foresee a cheap integrated Hasselblad solution, and a nice little Hasselblad H3 with no facilities for Phase and Leaf

Not more of this wild, speculation of Canon going to 16 bits/22mp. Please there is no evidence or information that this will happen, and if you really work through the commerical logic and practical considerations, no supportable reason for them to do it. This is just baseless stuff started in forums like DPReview with logic not really any more sophisticated than "The last time they went from 11mp to 16mp so the next step must be 22mp, and it's time for a new model." Further, "Because they can" doesn't cut it either. Please.

As for a "cheap integrated Hasselbald solution", the words "cheap" and Hasselblad" don't really go together. However, this would be an interesting step and would suggest they see the Mamiya ZD and the Pentax MF digital as a threat. It would, however, be a stong added incentive for Leaf or Phase One to bring back the Contax 645 (Maybe Phase One's shareholders would reconsider their rumored veto of the Contax deal). I think the success of the ZD and the viability of Mamiya will have the greatest impact on MF digital pricing, and a potential cheap Hassy H3 will just be evidence of the ZD's impact and effect rather than a cause in itself.

May 23, 2006 at 03:28 AM

carstenw
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p.20 #15 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotus, I thought I read somewhere that Canon is circulating 21/22MP prototypes to testers...

May 23, 2006 at 05:12 AM

Duncan Staples
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p.20 #16 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Here is a shot of downtown St. Louis with the Hasselblad H1D, 50-110mm HC Zoom and 528C hasselblad back. Exposure was approximately 30 seconds. I have provided center crop at 100% and edge crop at 100% for reference. Processed with FlexColor software. A tiny bit of USM was applied in PS.

Full Frame:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Center Crop:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Right Edge Crop:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Regards,
Duncan

May 23, 2006 at 05:27 AM

Lotusm50
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p.20 #17 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

carstenw wrote:
Lotus, I thought I read somewhere that Canon is circulating 21/22MP prototypes to testers...

If you can remember where you read that it would be useful. But I would have to say, it this was indeed true (verifiable, or from an identified, unimpeachable source), this would be all over every photo website on the web as news. But, at least what I have seen, it is not.

May 23, 2006 at 10:37 AM

eronald
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p.20 #18 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotus,

I have a track record as a pro journo, and a journalist union card. I don't identify my sources unless they allow it . And as I frequently get paid for writing my opinions, I stand behind them. 20-24 Mp and 16 bits is how I read the tea-leaves at the moment for the next Canon - I don't think this will make it equivalent to a top of the line MF solution, but it will narrow the gap to where the MF pricing will be under pressure. Of course, it's also possible that the camera will be unusable on release like the 1DII was, but then, one cannot tell the future ...

Edmund

May 23, 2006 at 10:51 AM

EZepeda
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p.20 #19 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Nice shots Duncan. Have you tried the Leaf yet? The guys at Fotocare keep teasing me about making the switch...

May 23, 2006 at 10:51 AM

Lotusm50
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p.20 #20 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

eronald wrote:
I have a track record as a pro journo, and a journalist union card. I don't identify my sources unless they allow it . And as I frequently get paid for writing my opinions, I stand behind them. 20-24 Mp and 16 bits is how I read the tea-leaves at the moment for the next Canon - I don't think this will make it equivalent to a top of the line MF solution, but it will narrow the gap to where the MF pricing will be under pressure. Of course, it's also possible that the camera will be unusable on release like the 1DII was, but then, one cannot tell the future ...

OK. If that's the case. I would have to say that Canon's strategy doesn't make much commercial sense (and this is where I get paid for my opinions). Will this new 22mp camera replace the 16mp 1Ds MkII?. Will the pro-level choice go from the 8.2 mp directly to some 22mp body? (leaving out the lower quality 5D). Despite the fact the vast majority of Canon pro users don't need 22mp, much less 16mp, will they be forced to deal with much larger files sizes than they need, and a much more expensive camera than they need (with ultimately very little additonal benefit). Will Canon also produce some lenses that are equal to a 22mp 24x36 size sensor (and if so, at what cost), or will they just further expose the inadequacies of many of the Canon lenses? Or is this just a ploy to try to sell more Leica and Zeiss lenses and adpaters to use them? It seems to me they will need to add yet another body in to the product line.

If this is indeed true, it will interesting to see how Canon builds their product line around it. And yes, if true, it will have a moderate downward effect on MF back prices.

May 23, 2006 at 11:59 AM

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