The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

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Vole
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p.3 #1 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

If the EF-S 17-55mm isn't worth the price then people won't buy it. If it sells well, then yes, it IS worth its cost.

Moaning about it isn't going to make Canon say "Ohhh, they're right, it is overpriced!" Why should they; they are going to sell this lens by the shed-load and they know it.

Would you sell a product for less when you know you can get big the $$$ for it? No!

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 02:48 AM

Monito
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p.3 #2 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Pondria wrote: The crop factor is not a key driver for Canon's product road map. What I mean is that Canon gives very little importance on 1.6x, 1.3x kind of things. They have not committed to any crop factors. What drives their road map is basically the Price and the MP. In other words, their road map in next 5 years have Products milestones, which are described as, for example, "$1,000 12MP DSLR". The road map doesn't show "1.6x 12MP DSLR", to illustrate my point clearly. What they are releasing is NOT a 1.6x camera but a $1,500 8 MP prosumer DSLR. Canon can dump 1.6x any time as it never married to it.

I don't know what you are trying to get at. Full frame sensors are not 2.56 more expensive than the cropped sensors (1.6 squared = 2.56 times the area), they are more than double that again because of yield considerations. First of all, not as many sensors fit on a circular die as 2.56 smaller ones because space is wasted at the edges. Secondly, because of the larger area, there is more chance of dust and other elements making imperfections, further lowering the yield.

So, to a company like Canon, it is vitally important whether it is a full frame 8 MP DSLR or a 1.6 crop 8 MP DSLR. A 1.6 crop 8 MP DSLR can be sold at various price points from $1400 to $500, depending on auxilliary features. You can't do it with a full frame sensor. Even if full frame sensors come down in price to that of today's 1.6 crop, then the 1.6 crop sensors will come down in price just as much and their cameras will be hypercompetitive and that market segment will be very price sensitive.

Canon is not going to dump 1.6x. Get over it.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 05:40 AM

nickrh
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p.3 #3 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

I totally agree with Monito on this one. 1.6 is here to stay. There will always be a price advantage.

Along those same lines... The 1DsII is much less expensive than a MF back. So, I'm really interested in how Canon will postion their 35mm Full-frame cameras in order to compete with MF.

I actually think we'll see the opposite happening on the full-frame end of the lineup in about 5-10 years. Instead of smaller lenses with smaller image circles, I think we might see slightly larger 35mm lenses with larger imaging circles to help combat the vignetting and soft corners that we've seen on Full Frame.

Nick

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:16 AM

Monito
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p.3 #4 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Canon may very well dump 1.3 crop at any time, because there are no lens lines married to it. But Full-Frame and 1.6 crop (APS-C) are here to stay.

EF-S and EF will last as long as each other and will be replaced together, but I don't expect them to be replaced for another decade at least. I don't see any technological need to do so, barring a revolutionary change like plenoptic systems that would totally eliminate lenses as we know them.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 12:23 PM

Liscia
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p.3 #5 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Makes good sense to me too Monito.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 04:03 PM

darknite
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p.3 #6 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Nickrh, Does full frame or even 1.6 need to compete with medium format? (not flaming, just wondering) Canon & Nikon both have a huge range of lenses from ultra wide to serious super telelphoto that MF cannot match. MF doesn't allow you to shoot fast, its not very portable compared to FF and 1.6.

Then there is the price factor. The cost of a modest MF setup (using the 39MegaPixel Hasselblad) plus a wide angle, normal and telephoto lens would set you back what, almost $40,000-$45,000?

What could you do in the current Canon line with that kinda cash? 1DsII and D30 $9500
16-35L 24-70L 0r 24-105L 70-200L IS $4500 300 2.8L $4000 600 f/4L $7000 14L $2000
total so far $26,500 that leaves $13,500 to buy RedelXTs for the whole family.

Or, if the better quality thing pops up, and you don't mind working slow, take the leftover $13,500 and buy a 4x5 sinar F2 plus lenses and outfit a 4x5 darkroom. You could even skip the darkroom if you only wanted to do chromes. Plus money left to buy a few rebel XTs for close friends and family.

I shot alot of MF and LF (film), and the way things sit today MF isn't that great of a value or advantage for me. YMMV

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 05:25 PM

Vole
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p.3 #7 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

"I sleep in a drawer!"

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 05:31 PM

Sneakyracer
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p.3 #8 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

The fact that Canon just release a constant max app. f2.8 EF-S lens absolutely signals a commitement to the 1.6x crop.

What reallo POs me is that you cant mount a EF-S on all Canon cameras they left all D30, d60 and 10d owners n the dust. Nikons DX lens mount on all Nikons even on an old FM, yes it vignetes at most settings but its very very usable. The 12-24 almost covered full frame at a lot of settings.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 05:34 PM

johnastovall
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p.3 #9 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Monito wrote:
Canon may very well dump 1.3 crop at any time, because there are no lens lines married to it. But Full-Frame and 1.6 crop (APS-C) are here to stay.

EF-S and EF will last as long as each other and will be replaced together, but I don't expect them to be replaced for another decade at least. I don't see any technological need to do so, barring a revolutionary change like plenoptic systems that would totally eliminate lenses as we know them.

I think Canon has already dumped the 1.3. They will either get a faster processor for capture of sensor data or give us a software selectable crop to reduce the pixels sampled to provide for the faster fps the the 1.3 provided. The 'IIN is most likely the last 1.3 sensor body they will make.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 05:39 PM

nickrh
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p.3 #10 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

I guess I use competing in a very liberal sense and I don't know much about MF.

I'm just assuming that at some point the top of the line DSLR and the bottom of the line MF will collide. Maybe not in terms of variety of lenses/etc., but in terms of initial cost to buy just a body (digital back) & a single basic lens. We all know there are plenty of people who don't have enough sense to realize they're buying into a system. And the more and more people who buy into DSLRs, the more and more hobbiest that will find a desire to tinker with MF just to be different.

To put another way, in 5 years I can imagine a 25MP DSLR and a 25MP Back going for roughly the same street price. Also assuming that larger pixels will mean better DR, Less Noise, Less Diffraction, Etc. then there may be a real difference in quality of the outputs of two similar MP cameras. These same sorts of arguments come into play within the Canon lineup (1DII vs 20D) and the amount of detail captured for telephoto shots.

Sure companies like Hasselblad will always stay to the front of the curve. But Pentax is already planning a 19MP 645 dSLR that may start putting pressure on Canon's. Full Frame offerings.

Nick

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:19 PM

hankk
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p.3 #11 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Bobster2 wrote:
In three or four years (maybe less) Canon will have 20 megapixel full frame for $1500 and it will even have a popup flash.

APS digital will last as long as APS film. About 10 years.

APS digital will always be there for the entry level DSLRs. The cost of the sensor is related to its size--Moore's law (the capability of a processor doubles every 18 months) does not apply, becasue it assumes a shrinking geometry (ie a smaller chip size).

I hope we have a 20MP FF for $1500, but if we do, there will be a $150 APS-C entry level body to get new users hooked into the lens system.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:24 PM

darknite
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p.3 #12 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Nick, the Pentax 19MP vs future Canon 1Ds.x 22-24MP in a FF format is something I am looking forward to. I've read on the net somewhere in the last couple of days that the expected size of the Pentax sensor is about twice the size of the FF sensor, not the 3.something of a traditional 6x4.5cm negative. Should be fun to watch the DR and high ISO noise comparisons.

It might shame the 12MP P&S people into an 8MP dslr

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:30 PM

Pondria
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p.3 #13 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Monito wrote:
Pondria wrote: The crop factor is not a key driver for Canon's product road map. What I mean is that Canon gives very little importance on 1.6x, 1.3x kind of things. They have not committed to any crop factors. What drives their road map is basically the Price and the MP. In other words, their road map in next 5 years have Products milestones, which are described as, for example, "$1,000 12MP DSLR". The road map doesn't show "1.6x 12MP DSLR", to illustrate my point clearly. What they are releasing is NOT a 1.6x camera but a $1,500 8 MP prosumer DSLR. Canon can dump 1.6x any time as it never married to it.

I don't know what you are trying to get at.

Sorry if I was not clear.
I was trying to say that Canon is not building the roadmap around any specific crop sensors. They are covering each market segment with price and the MP. They just need a 8MP DSLR to sell at $1,500. Today, 1.6x sensor is only viable option to meet the Price/MP point. If they could do it with FF, they would do that.

Canon is not going to dump 1.6x. Get over it.

Hmmm, get over what ?

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:35 PM

nickrh
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p.3 #14 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

darknite wrote:
Nick, the Pentax 19MP vs future Canon 1Ds.x 22-24MP in a FF format is something I am looking forward to. I've read on the net somewhere in the last couple of days that the expected size of the Pentax sensor is about twice the size of the FF sensor, not the 3.something of a traditional 6x4.5cm negative. Should be fun to watch the DR and high ISO noise comparisons.

It might shame the 12MP P&S people into an 8MP dslr

Even if the 645 is a 1.3x crop or whatever, it's opening a lot of doors. There's no reason to believe they won't eventually hit 6x4.5cm in the future. So if you buy in now and start investing in the system, you'll eventually get the benefit of a bigger sensor and more MP.

I just see Canon as quickly approaching a hurdle. Once they release a full-frame at the pixel pitch of the 20D there's going to have to be some serious technology improvements before they can go any higher in resolution. It's why the 30D isn't 10MP... there's not currently much sense in an incremental upgrade. So they either need to overcome the need for the Bayer pattern filter, or figure out some sort of better post-processing algorithms so they can get the more out of a high-density sensor.

I'm not saying doom & gloom for Canon's 35mm offerings, just that we will start seeing a more downward pressure on price. And more pressure to build lenses that take advantage of a high-res full-fram sensor.

Nick

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 06:55 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.3 #15 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

darknite wrote:
Nickrh, Does full frame or even 1.6 need to compete with medium format? (not flaming, just wondering) Canon & Nikon both have a huge range of lenses from ultra wide to serious super telelphoto that MF cannot match. MF doesn't allow you to shoot fast, its not very portable compared to FF and 1.6.

You could equally say the same about the 1Ds2. Given that 99% of the DSLR world is happy shooting with crop sensors including both the main aspects of quality and flexibility, is the FF sensor any more than the new 645?
I see FF as exactly that, 645 with the added benefits of the 35mm system range of lenses and accessories, not as the future per se.

I think in the time to come, the APS-C size will undoubtably become the de facto standard for digital sensors because it maintains that ideal balance of a high enough quality to satisfy the needs of the vast majority and their expected uses, as well as improvements in size and lens quality. Its easy to argue that the 1.6x reduction in field of view is of considerably more benefit than the arbitrary designation of a standard lens being 50mm especially when there is a real practical limit to just how wide you can go, or indeed need to go, with a lens view. Current fisheyes already go about as far as you require on APS-C, but is there such a thing as too much telephoto?

As sensor tech marches on, the real world benefits of the FF sensor will become less and less and matter to fewer and fewer people. Inevitable im my view. FF is here to stay, but its not going mainstream.

Edited on Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Feb 25, 2006 at 07:13 PM

CKrueger
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p.3 #16 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

nickrh wrote:
I just see Canon as quickly approaching a hurdle. Once they release a full-frame at the pixel pitch of the 20D there's going to have to be some serious technology improvements before they can go any higher in resolution. It's why the 30D isn't 10MP... there's not currently much sense in an incremental upgrade. So they either need to overcome the need for the Bayer pattern filter, or figure out some sort of better post-processing algorithms so they can get the more out of a high-density sensor.

I would think we'd need a new set of higher resolution lenses as well. Putting a 200MP body behind a 17-40 or 100-400 won't do you any good.

As for another poster asking why I care if the 17-55 carries an "L" tag... like I said, I don't care about the lens being an "L" at all. I care how Canon positions EF-S, and putting an "L" on an EF-S lens would tell us what their designs for EF-S are. NOT putting an "L" on a $1100 lens must make you wonder why Canon doesn't consider this a "professional" lens. The logical conclusion is that since the lens exceeds the specs of its EF counterpart, but does not carry the "L" tag, that EF-S is not a "professional" format.

As someone else in another forum said, Canon and Nikon really should release a roadmap for photographers. It's stupid that thousands of us have invested thousands of dollars (and thousands more in the future) on an investment that is understood to last more than a decade, but Canon will not tell us what their plans for the system are.

Feb 27, 2006 at 04:17 PM


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