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Archive 2006 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Sprout Crumble
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p.2 #1 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Of course there will be a PRO 1.6. You're missing the fundamental point that many photographers see APS-C as a superior set of compromises to FF and no other manufacturer is in the slightest bit bothered about FF.

Also got to laugh at the 22mp comment. The one advantage FF users claim is superior image quality due to the less dense pixel structure, yet you've just advocated a FF sensor with the same density as the 20D.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:39 PM

abam
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p.2 #2 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

well said, sam.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:44 PM

Tom_W
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p.2 #3 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Sam Bennett wrote:
So, welcome to the dual-format dSLR world folks. Don't limit yourself to establishing the absolute superiority of each format - just know the ins and outs of each format and what each can provide you.

Yep - I was a skeptic in the past. If you'd have asked me prior to the 20D about what I thought, my words would have said that the 1.6X is a stop-gap measure. Once the 20D, 10-22, and 17-85 were out, I knew it was here to stay. With the new 17-55 lens, Canon is serious about this format. The two can run in parallel.

And I'm secretly thinking about having a 5D and 30D (or 20D) both in parallel at some point. Maybe.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this time with a bit more firm prediction: Within a year's time we will see an announcement from Canon for a 1.6 format professional dSLR - most like as a mini-1 Series. Sign me up!

I half expected that at this show (of course, it's still not over) - I expected the 30D and a pro-level 1.6X camera of some sort. That would be really nice and would complete the line.

I'm visualizing two formats with overlaping lines. That is, the lowest-priced full-frame Canon being priced somewhat below the pro-level 1.6X Canon.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:51 PM

Bobster2
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p.2 #4 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Sprout Crumble wrote:
Also got to laugh at the 22mp comment.

What's the joke?

A full frame with the same pixel density as the 20D would give you the best of both. People who love $1500 crop sensor cameras can buy a $1500 full frame camera and crop it. But they can also use a wide angle lens and not crop it. It's like two cameras for the price of one.

The joke is spending $8000 for 35mm lenses and using them on APS sized sensors that they weren't designed for.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:55 PM

Ariel Bravy
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p.2 #5 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Film is dying. 35mm is nothing more than a legacy at this point. The whole reason that we have 35mm digital sensors is because
a) EF lenses are designed for 35mm format and
b) people are used to thinking of focal lengths in terms of 35mm film

Now, there's nothing inherently special about 35mm sensors. Just because it was the standard for so long doesn't mean it's the "best" format or the "right" format. There's larger formats. There's smaller formats. Digital has changed many things about photography. Look at Nikon. They're dropping FF entirely now that they've stopped making film bodies and are only releasing cropped digital bodies.

FF and 1.6x bodies both have their merits and respective side-effects. No one is debating this. It seems like many people are stuck on 35mm being the "right" format because they're so used to it and because it's the "standard". Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who didn't get into photography seriously until the advent of digital cameras and consequently, I "think" of focal lengths in terms of how they look on 1.6x bodies.

So my point is that people seem to be stuck on 35mm FF bodies being the "best" because they're so used to it and because most if not all of their lenses are designed for 35mm. FF isn't inherently better than 1.6x, or vice versa. They're simply two different means to an end. 35mm isn't the end all be all of DSLRs.

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:11 PM

nads
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p.2 #6 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

The idea of a pro 1.6 body is interesting... and far from being wild conjecture.

Another thing 1.6 has going for it is that the great majority of new DSLR users are introduced to the SLR world through the eye of a crop body. Be it Canon's equipment, Nikon's or any other manufacturer. For these folks, an 85mm lens is only an 85mm lens when it's on crop body, and it will be unnatural to shoot an 85mm on a FF. It's the exact same thing as many people who grew up on FF feel about 1.6x.

Canon is all but forced to keep a crop line around now that Nikon has committed to 1.5x long term. If Canon were to try to go completely FF, there would be no way to compete with Nikon in the entry level market because they couldn't hit the same price point with FF.

There's always the argument that most of the lenses were designed around the 35mm format. But you can't forget that almost all of these lenses work great on a crop body as well.

Feb 21, 2006 at 11:23 PM

Fluffy
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p.2 #7 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

I think that those are prediciting a pro 1.6 crop body are spot on the mark. I won't even guess when we'll see it but I think it is going to happen, sooner rather than later. I think Sam pegged it, there are going to be 2 distinct lines of digital SLR in Canon's line, the crop, 1.5 or 1.6 and FF.

I think there is definitely a market for a 1.6 crop 1-series body. I think the apparent success of the D200 and D2X illustrate that. I'm sure there are more than a few canon shooters who have a 20d along side their 1 series that would love to have a 1.6 crop with the same interface as their 1 series.

I myself, think FF or 1.3x at the most is the way to go for me. I've been using FF film for too long to think of my lenses in a crop format. When I see a scene I can pretty much tell what lens I'll need to get the composition I want, don't really feel like adjusting to a crop. But like its been said before, there are plenty of people that only know the view of a lenses as a cropped lens. There's a market for both and I think we'll eventually see parallel lines, atleast from the advanced amateur to pro lines of FF and 1.6 crop.

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:11 AM

calvillo
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p.2 #8 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

SKPhoton wrote:
Film is dying. 35mm is nothing more than a legacy at this point. The whole reason that we have 35mm digital sensors is because
a) EF lenses are designed for 35mm format and
b) people are used to thinking of focal lengths in terms of 35mm film

Now, there's nothing inherently special about 35mm sensors. Just because it was the standard for so long doesn't mean it's the "best" format or the "right" format. There's larger formats. There's smaller formats. Digital has changed many things about photography. Look at Nikon. They're dropping FF entirely now that they've stopped making film bodies...Show more →

So let's call this the "inertia factor", there's all this glass out there designed for 35mm. While this format isn't etched in stone, it's served us pretty well for a long period, and there IS all this glass out there there designed for the format serving as a ball & chain that stops momentum for a new digital format. The 1.6x is great for tele shooters, sports, nature/animals, there's good reason to like that format, it accidently has some advantages, and some limitations.

On the other hand, why re-invent the wheel with a new digital format. Olympus thought this was a good idea, but it doesn't seem to have made them an industry leader. Further, Nikon seems to be having a hard time just staying in the 1.5x game with noise problems, banding, etc. I'd bet Nikon doesn't have a FF sensor because they can't get it to work. Canon had to manufacture their own FF sensor, undoubtedly because they couldn't get the quality they demanded from an outside supplier.

Canon has a monopoly on FF, which is Christmas for them all year! Until another manufacturer show's up with FF, Canon rolls in dough, and 1.6 stays around. If/when the competition gets it together and delivers their FF product then FF price goes down, and 1.6x starts to go away. A) The manufacturers can concentrate on one size sensor driving unit price down, B) Consumers will buy the camera that gives them tele and WA for the same price. If Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, whatever Konica/Minolta turns into, and the other manufacturers don't make FF work, Canon continues unchallenged as industry leader and the FF & 1.6 formats continue indefinately.

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:20 AM

BiscottiGelato
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p.2 #9 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Hmm, is there any possibility that Nikon announces a say... 8mm to 15mm lens, or a 10 - 20 f2.8.... then the 'wide angle' limitation on cropped bodies will vanish. Other than pixel size allowed to be larger (which can be solved on cropped bodies via better electronics) and a larger/brighter viewfinder, there'd be no advantage to a full frame. However what you gain is more on the tele's end, cheaper lenses (cuz smaller sensor), cheaper sensors, smaller body size, perhaps smaller lenses also.

I know 8mm is hard to make, but when you want it only on a cropped sensor, they might be able to do it within reasonable cost?

Canon might be gambling on the possibility that crop sensor does have the potential to take over, reserving FF just for pros. Or in reverse, dropping FF when the crop sensor format reaches dominance. eg. in a day where all the FF L's work on cropped (already does), they have G series wides down to 8mm.... there are pro-bodies for crop sensors.........

Just weird thinking. Ignore me if desires~

Feb 22, 2006 at 12:58 AM

Rodney_Gold
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p.2 #10 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

What we really need is a 25+ mpix 1 series FF camera with a variable crop that can be reflected in the viewfinder , a digital and optical type zoom arrangement , the best of both worlds.

Feb 22, 2006 at 01:44 AM

madmax200
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p.2 #11 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

" Their extended DoF"

HUH

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:05 AM

BiscottiGelato
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p.2 #12 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Rodney_Gold wrote:
What we really need is a 25+ mpix 1 series FF camera with a variable crop that can be reflected in the viewfinder , a digital and optical type zoom arrangement , the best of both worlds.

$, the most important spec..... and then some people already got local gym membership, so they actually want smaller cameras and lens system also....

Feb 22, 2006 at 02:20 AM

rjk55425
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p.2 #13 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Fluffy wrote:
I think that those are prediciting a pro 1.6 crop body are spot on the mark. I won't even guess when we'll see it but I think it is going to happen, sooner rather than later. I think Sam pegged it, there are going to be 2 distinct lines of digital SLR in Canon's line, the crop, 1.5 or 1.6 and FF.

I think there is definitely a market for a 1.6 crop 1-series body. I think the apparent success of the D200 and D2X illustrate that. I'm sure there are more than a few canon shooters who have a 20d...Show more →

I agree there is a market for 1.6 pro Canon body but the fact that Nikon has one is a different situation. They only have the crop bodies and see it in their best interest to offer pro features at 2 price points. Canon may be less inclined to do this. I hope I am wrong but at best, they are dragging their feet.

Feb 22, 2006 at 07:17 AM

mickr7an
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p.2 #14 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Sam Bennett wrote:
It seems like some out there refuse to accept the fact that Full Frame is clearly not Canon's sole strategy for the future. Today's events verify this easily - an incremental improvement to one of Canon's most successful dSLRs with neither an increase in MP nor change in crop factor, an introduction of a mid-range zoom for EF-S lenses to compete directly with Nikon's fine 17-55/2.8, and a upgrade of one of Canon's premier EF lenses.

I've long held that 1.6 crop is not going anywhere, and I feel that even more strongly after today. With Nikon's DX success,...Show more →

It was sad enough when some idiots were trying to start a Canon V Nikon war in this forum. Now some even bigger idiots are trying to start a Canon Full Frame V Canon 1.6 crop war.

Feb 22, 2006 at 08:06 AM

EZepeda
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p.2 #15 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Exactly as Jay said, reference the NY Times article on Monday showing Canon's most profitable digital camera segment is DSLR with prosumer a much larger segment than pro. Hence the 30D coming in a little, but not much cheaper than the 20D. With the success of the 5D at 3k, an eventual leveling of prosumer FF's at 2500 makes total sense. Having established an 8k price point in the pro sector, Canon will undoubtedly find ways to make us shell out big bucks for a product that will lose almost half it's value within 2-3 years.

Feb 22, 2006 at 08:37 AM

Sam Bennett
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p.2 #16 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

mickr7an wrote:
It was sad enough when some idiots were trying to start a Canon V Nikon war in this forum. Now some even bigger idiots are trying to start a Canon Full Frame V Canon 1.6 crop war.

If you think that my post was intended to inflame a FF vs. 1.6 crop war, you've got some major reading comprehension issues. I was proposing exactly the opposite.

Feb 22, 2006 at 10:34 AM

Sam Bennett
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p.2 #17 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

calvillo wrote:
Canon has a monopoly on FF, which is Christmas for them all year! Until another manufacturer show's up with FF, Canon rolls in dough, and 1.6 stays around. If/when the competition gets it together and delivers their FF product then FF price goes down, and 1.6x starts to go away.

I just don't see crop sensors ever going away. The economics of sensor manufacturing dictate that 1.6 crop sensors will always be cheaper than FF sensors. I think we sometimes forget that at one point brand new entry level film SLRs could be had easily for $150. Given the choice, there will always be a group of people who will consistently take the cheaper camera. Getting more cameras into more hands means selling more accessories and lenses, so there's no impetus for Canon and Nikon to phase crop bodies out.

Feb 22, 2006 at 10:40 AM

CKrueger
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p.2 #18 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

While I agree that 1.6x is a fine format, and should exist alongside FF, I don't agree Canon has made a commitment to 1.6x yet. What they did is release a very expensive normal zoom for EF-S. A 24-70/2.8L for EF-S, if you will. This just reaffirms Canon's reluctance to bless 1.6x as a permanent format. To prove to me that they are serious about EF-S, they would have to do one of the following:

1) Release an "L" lens for EF-S. The 10-22 was a gray area; it functioned as a 10-22 in range, but not in build quality. There's room for improvement, in terms of adding a constant aperture. But the 17-55/2.8 IS? What else could Canon do for this type of lens to bless it with its "professional" badge? The lens is already >$1000, but Canon can't be bothered to call its step-child EF-S lens an "L". It doesn't even ship with a hood, I hear? To me, this is Canon's way of saying EF-S is a lesser format than FF, and if you want a high-end Canon lens, you might as well shop FF.

2) Release a 1-series body with a 1.6x sensor, or at the VERY least, a FF/APS-C combo sensor with the 1.6x being the "sports mode", similar to the D200. I agree that 1.6x is a great format, and a competitor with FF, not an inferior compromise format, but the message Canon is sending by marketing its 1.3x cameras in the face of a perfectly capable sensor like the 20D's is that 1.6x is that they want to distance their pro bodies from 1.6x; 1.6x is only to be used on cameras where price is a large part of the factor (ie: an amateur body).

3) Release a statement that 1.6x describing their intentions towards the 1.6x sensor format. Proclaim Canon is a two-format SLR company, and announce their intentions for the 1.6x format. Cheap consumer bodies? Fine. Compact bodies? Cool. Tele-oriented bodies? Awesome.

Realistically, I can't see Canon ditching 1.6x, because they'd lose the low-end market to cameras like the D50. As cheap as Canon could make a FF sensor in the future, Nikon could make a 1.5x sensor cheaper and smaller. But as a Canon DSLR shooter, I would like to know if my future EF-S purchases will be a dead end. If EF-S ends up being a format for cheap cameras in Canon-land, it will end up being pushed further and further down the low end of the body market as FF approaches the $2000 price point, and eventually the magic $1000 price point. When/if the only 1.6x bodies are cameras akin to the Rebel K2, and everything else is FF, my EF-S lenses will become worthless to me. Not usable on my future FF "90D" body, and too expensive to be attractive to people shopping the 1.6x market.

So for me, it's not a matter of IF 1.6x will be around, it's a matter of how it will be marketed.

Feb 22, 2006 at 05:18 PM

Alex53
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p.2 #19 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

calvillo wrote:
...Simply seems to me you're reading a lot into the 30D.

Couldnt agree more. Its just an 'update' camera. If they had just called it the 20D mkII no one would have expected so much so soon.

Feb 22, 2006 at 05:39 PM

rjk55425
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p.2 #20 · The disillusionment of the Canon Elite begins...

Its pointless to debate Canon's committment to 1.6x. They will participate in this market as long as it makes sense to them. They will hold out as long as they can in giving pro features to 1.6x and they aren't above asking premium pricing in the top end of the EF-S lenses. No brand with a premium product is going to degrade their brand by giving it away at a far lower price point.

Feb 22, 2006 at 08:05 PM

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