Re: Screwed one more time

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Archive 2006 · Re: Screwed one more time

sskoutas
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p.2 #1 · Re: Screwed one more time

Ozone42 wrote:
...Quit griping, go out and take more pictures.

* I love it. Well said.

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:21 PM

Phil Bonner
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p.2 #2 · Re: Screwed one more time

With the 85L and the 85 f/1.8, Canon already had the 85mm prime length covered with very high quality glass.

Therefore, it's puzzling why Canon did not address the glaring wide angle hole in their line-up, rather then concentrate on a focal length that was already covered.

Well, maybe next time...

Edited by Phil Bonner on Feb 21, 2006 at 01:32 PM GMT

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:27 PM

Tom_W
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p.2 #3 · Re: Screwed one more time

CurtPick wrote:
Guy,

I am no where near the quality of a photog as you are but I too have to agree with you. They need a serious Wide angle lens. Hell, its even worse on the 1.6x sensor ! So much ranting about the 10-22mm , but I used one and it was simply the worst piece of crap I ever laid my hands on. Now a 17-55mm ok it fills a gap,, but EF-S

What the heck are they thinking .... Now lets insult the prosumer some more lets put it on the market for above $1K just because it has IS ? How often are you going to use IS in this focal range ??

Scratching my head and wondering who smoked what when they thought of this one.

I'm not sure why you would think that an EF-S mount is a problem. If this new 17-55 were a full-frame EF lens, it would be incredibly complex, and image quality would be considerably below that of the 16-35. The design and manufacture of an ultra-wide to normal lens is much more difficult than that of a wide - to - short telephoto.

In other words, you aren't likely to ever see a 17-55 f/2.8 full-frame lens from any manufacturer.

Frankly, the 17-55 f/2.8 IS may be the best thing to come out of this announcement, for it fills a gap for a fast normal zoom, and offers something that its competitors don't - IS.

Actually, I don't agree WRT the 10-22 either - as zooms go, it's a stellar lens in terms of IQ, and really competes well with all the other offerings of its competitors (Tamron, Sigma, Tokina). No, it's not built like a brick outhouse, but that isn't detrimental to most that use it.

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:28 PM

Game Tracker
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p.2 #4 · Re: Screwed one more time

Buy the right tool for the right job... whatever your job is. I needed a camera that would pick up a football player on the opposite side of the field, track him running at me up the sidline, shoot at 8 fps, and not hit the buffer before he reached the endzone. So, I bought a Canon 1D Mark II N and a 400mm f2.8L IS. I do not feel the need to yell at Leica because they cannot produce a camera with autofocus, fast frame rate, and huge buffer.

Some day, hopefully not too far in the future, Canon (or maybe a Zeiss EF mount) will address the wide angle problem. Will Leica address their's sooner? I don't think so. Canon is the most versatile system right now.

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:28 PM

Brutus_B
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p.2 #5 · Re: Screwed one more time

Ive got to agree with Greg. Canon cant be the best at everything and for alot of working pro's like myself who make our livings with sports, the Canon system is the best in the world.

70-200 2.8 IS, 200 1.8, and 400 2.8 IS and two mkII bodies plus a 1.4x TC and Im all set. Canon equipment has only helped my career.

I also do a bit of wedding and concert/event work and the 35 1.4, 24-70L and 85 1.2L work flawlessly in low light.

Ive done very little product shooting but my 45 and 90 TS/E's have proved very useful as well

I just dont really need wider than 24mm so I sure dont feel screwed over.

I guess Canon for product, wedding, concert/event, PJ's and Sports shooters

Lecia or some other brand for those with highly specialized needs.

Its foolish to say that "Pros" are screwed over though by Canon when in reality Canon makes all the tools I need to do my job

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:38 PM

bouch
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p.2 #6 · Re: Screwed one more time

Seems to me that the current Canon lineup delivers more than 35mm film ever did. Why don't those that need high-resolution wide angle shots that are sharp to the corners do what photographers have always done - move up to a larger format? Why must Canon's 35mm digital system be the solution for every photographic scenario? Why do the current lineup and announcements constitute "screwing the pros"?

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:42 PM

johnastovall
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p.2 #7 · Re: Screwed one more time

I think, I've figured it out. Canon Marketing is reading the DPR Canon lense board than think that's the market.

I've had a 5D less than a week and all ready see where I would love a really nice fast 21mm. I've planed for a 35L and the 16-35L zoom this year but see where a 21mm would be very nice.

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:43 PM

Brutus_B
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p.2 #8 · Re: Screwed one more time

And another thing, Do you think your going to see any one saying "Lecia screwed the pro's"

If Im a professional photographer with a Lecia system, should I be upset that they arent putting out anything for my work as a sports shooter ?

Or where are their IS 500 and 600's for the pro wildlife shooters ?

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:43 PM

bigreen505
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p.2 #9 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy Mancuso wrote:
Manoj you have to realize they have been having issues with wide angles since the the orginal 1ds came out and that was 4 years ago and yet they know of all the issues folks have had with the FF sensor and there wide angles.

Actually that is not a completely accurate statement. I remember when I switched to Canon in the mid '90s people were complaining that the 17-35 was not good enough and Canon really needed to do something about the wide coverage. Canon reps promised something was coming, but it never did. Still the same debate and the only change is one extra mm on the wide end, but quality is the same.

Don't feel bad for anyone Guy, just get ready to make a lot of room for people in the Alternative Forum.

Nikon made an announcement that they are not going full frame and I think in some way this is Canon's way of showing their direction. We'll see what Photokina brings, but I'm not holding my breath.

So with that out of the way, the 30D is the right camera at the right time. Canon couldn't care less what you, me, or any other pros want. I'm guessing that the 30D is a proactive strike on Sony. Canon knows about the different levels of the consumer market, has undoubtably spent more money on market research than they spend on R&D for the pro bodies, and probably expect the 30D to be a slightly "more pro" camera than what Sony is likely to put out. Think of it less as what Canon can produce and more of what they expect Sony to produce. Then, when Sony comes out with their camera lineup, Canon still has room to go with a 1.6 crop, reasonably priced body before they risk stepping on the 5D.

All speculation of course, but I'm guessing that the 30D is more of a calculated business move than just a camera that didn't really deserve a new name.

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:46 PM

fotografur
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p.2 #10 · Re: Screwed one more time

Brutus_B wrote:

Its foolish to say that "Pros" are screwed over though by Canon when in reality Canon makes all the tools I need to do my job

Exactly. Canon makes most of the pro's tools so they must be doing something right. You're not going to please everyone. And I'm not a big fan of people (let alone pro's) complaining that so and so company isn't making the right tools.And what, holding them back?

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:54 PM

nads
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p.2 #11 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy Mancuso wrote:
I am betting not much and the price is out there on a limb for no one to buy it at 2100.00 that is leica prices , what are they nuts.

Hey, how fast do those Leica lenses autofocus at that price?

To be fair, Canon is a large company that is in business for it's shareholders. If it's a better business decision to release the lenses they did, so be it. I can't really blame them too much for focusing on the long lenses instead of wide angles, after all.. a large number of big white lenses on the sidelines of major sporting events is great advertizing that hits a huge number of potential customers. How do you fault them for concentrating on the area where they'll get the best ROI?

Canon services the mass market... if your needs aren't in line with the general needs of that market, you need to look for a company interested in servicing your nitch market. They aren't screwing anybody... just looking out for their own best interests.

Edited by nads on Feb 22, 2006 at 03:02 AM GMT

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:59 PM

Tony Schreiber
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p.2 #12 · Re: Screwed one more time

[Okay i am sure i will get flamed but before you do , look at the big picture not just your needs.

My need *is* the big picture!

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:02 PM

Pondria
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p.2 #13 · Re: Screwed one more time

Guy Mancuso wrote:
You know Canon just screwed the pro’s again , no wide angle , no pro body but another version of a 1.6. The only thing that may and I mean may be good is the 85 1.2 but how much better optically is it from the old one. I am betting not much and the price is out there on a limb for no one to buy it at 2100.00 that is leica prices , what are they nuts. But the bottom line at the end of the day they did not even come close to solving the wide angle issue except throw another zoom at people . All the complaints and all the talk of wide angle issues and still we are left holding the bag. Frankly I am glad I switched , they really don’t deserve a dime from pro photographers and they sit there and scratch there head wondering why pro’s or advanced hobbyist are buying Zeiss and leica lenses.

Just my take on the whole PMA announcement from Canon

I honestly feel bad for you guy's , they solved none of there issues.

Okay i am sure i will get flamed but before you do , look at the big picture not just your needs. Also i like Canon a lot this is just sad to see what market they want to make money off of. That 85 1.2 should be 1500 and not a nickel more

Guy, you are given a dedicated forum just for yourself to talk about Leica and Zeiss. And you still came down to the mortal world to scold Canon. Was it really necessary ?

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:10 PM

The Image
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p.2 #14 · Re: Screwed one more time

im 100% with mancusa. i need the absolute best in wide angle optics, but canon doesnt have it for me. there bodies are great the telephotos are incredible they just need some excellent extreme wide agles....come on canon remember me the professional? give me some pro wide optics

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:12 PM

johnastovall
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p.2 #15 · Re: Screwed one more time

Pondria wrote:

Guy, you are given a dedicated forum just for yourself to talk about Leica and Zeiss. And you still came down to the mortal world to scold Canon. Was it really necessary ?

I think Canon needs some scolding from on high based on the lenses they came out with at PMA. More EF-S junk and a product improved 85L and that's it.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:17 PM

Azrael
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p.2 #16 · Re: Screwed one more time

At least you have the choice of lenses with a Canon body. You can always put on one of those leica's when you want to, you don't really lose anything. But you can't AF with the Leica body, that makes it useless for most. Another ironic thing is the Leica DMR isn't even full frame.
I don't think anybody contests that Canon has the best bodies out there at the moment

Not that I don't agree Canon should put some more effort in their WA glass though! I'm sure they can do it, it's just a matter of wanting it (i.e. profitability).

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:25 PM

Sarsfield
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p.2 #17 · Re: Screwed one more time

I think Canon needs some scolding from on high based on the lenses they came out with at PMA. More EF-S junk and a product improved 85L and that's it.

I don't understand this one. I think Canon has made it clear that the ef-s format is here to stay and the 10-22, 60mm macro and this new offering look very nice. I can speak for the 10-22 and can say that it is one of my sharpest lenses. As for the 85L II, this lens has needed an upgrade so it will be a welcome addition once it's price settles down.

As to Guy looking out for pro's who supposedly need wide angle, I'm really confused as he is using a crop sensor, cobbled together camera and back which mask every wides' shortcomings. He can no longer speak for someone using full-frame and needing WA, IMHO.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:27 PM

Hrow
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p.2 #18 · Re: Screwed one more time

Me thinks that many people here have missed Guy's point.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:28 PM

timparkin
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p.2 #19 · Re: Screwed one more time

Hrow wrote:
Me thinks that many people here have missed Guy's point.

They are also arguing that canon is a shareholder run company, hence they'll only do what the shareholders want. But generally what the shareholders want is to hear good stuff being talked about the company in the semi-pro forums. Telling people not to talk about the shortcomings is going *make sure* they don't address those shortcomings.

Guy's point is that the wide angle market is a big market and I think he's trying to make canon notice that *there is a problem*. The same goes for talking about the lack of simple mirror lock up access. If more people talk about the problem, the more chance it gets fixed.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:37 PM

Brutus_B
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p.2 #20 · Re: Screwed one more time

How come if Canon is supposed to be the "be all to everyone single photographer" or risk the scorn of the world company, we arent holding any other firms to such standards ?

Come on Kodak, Come on Casio, wheres the "pro" tools ?

Canon's market (and a small one of its overall business at that) is point and shoot camera's, printers, entry level DSLR's and "pro" DSLR's that appeal to the sports, wildflie and wedding markets. Thats a plenty big slice of the photo pie for any company to bite off.

As I said before, You can fault Lecia just as easily for not having anything for the Sports Shooter as you can for Canon not having anything for a few elite pro's who need the very best of the best.

For most of us "pro's" who do lowely magazine work, even the 16-35 zoom is just fine image quality wise.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:37 PM

Brutus_B
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p.2 #21 · Re: Screwed one more time

timparkin wrote:
But generally what the shareholders want is to hear good stuff being talked about the company in the semi-pro forums. .

I think the shareholders would prefer that everyone who's walking into BestBuy, Circuit City etc is leaving with a Canon printer, a Canon point and shoot, a Drebel etc

How many Drebels do they sell vs how many 1Ds mkII's ? Whats bringing in the biggest source of revenue ?

There are plenty of companies that specialize in very high end gear, and its excellent stuff, dont get me wrong, but if the consumer market wasnt the big profit maker, why wouldnt Phase One, Lecia etc all be the companies posting record profits ?

As it stands way too many companies that were making gear only true "pro's" needed have gone out of business in the past few years.

Just as most any working pro will tell you this market is getting harder on us every year, any company that depends on pro's is going to face the same problems

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:43 PM

Game Tracker
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p.2 #22 · Re: Screwed one more time

Brutus_B wrote:
How come if Canon is supposed to be the "be all to everyone single photographer" or risk the scorn of the world company, we arent holding any other firms to such standards ?

Come on Kodak, Come on Casio, wheres the "pro" tools ?

Canon's market (and a small one of its overall business at that) is point and shoot camera's, printers, entry level DSLR's and "pro" DSLR's that appeal to the sports, wildflie and wedding markets. Thats a plenty big slice of the photo pie for any company to bite off.

As I said before, You can fault Lecia just as easily for not having anything for the Sports Shooter as you can for Canon not having anything for a few elite pro's who need the very best of the best.

For most of us "pro's" who do lowely magazine work, even the 16-35 zoom is just fine image quality wise.

Exactly!

Canon will have quality wide angle lenses long before Leica or anyone else has a good sports/wildlife system. Look at the ENTIRE Canon system... autofocus, FF sensors, telephoto primes, IS, ETTL, zooms, TS lenses, macro. It is very strong... except for wides. Who else is this strong? Not Leica, Nikon, etc..

To say we're getting screwed because there are no new wide angle primes announced at this PMA is ridiculous. What did Leica announce at PMA?

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:48 PM

timparkin
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p.2 #23 · Re: Screwed one more time

Brutus_B wrote:
How come if Canon is supposed to be the "be all to everyone single photographer" or risk the scorn of the world company, we arent holding any other firms to such standards ?

I think the point is that they ARE so good at doing most things that just addressing one or two areas would mean canon could have all my money, as it is I have to use the 'non-canon non-nikon forum' to try to work out how to get good digital landscapes without getting a phase one back.

It's just sooo annoying that it's easily within their reach to do this and yet they don't. The only way they ever will is if people moan about it. Hence moan, moan, moan. Just think if we had a decent wide angle you'd have a stock answer to all those 'my corners look soft' posts. Just buy the Canon 21L f2 .. maybe one day.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:50 PM

johnastovall
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p.2 #24 · Re: Screwed one more time

Game Tracker wrote:

Exactly!

Canon will have quality wide angle lenses long before Leica or anyone else has a good sports/wildlife system. Look at the ENTIRE Canon system... autofocus, FF sensors, telephoto primes, IS, ETTL, zooms, TS lenses, macro. It is very strong... except for wides. Who else is this strong? Not Leica, Nikon, etc..

To say we're getting screwed because there are no new wide angle primes announced at this PMA is ridiculous. What did Leica announce at PMA?

But Leica should have the digital M body at Photokina so they didn't need to have anything at PMA but Canon should have something better at Photokina than another EF-S and reworked L.

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:52 PM

mark1958
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p.2 #25 · Re: Screwed one more time

I think Canon has done extremely well with the AF system. I mean the speed of their AF on their series 1 cameras (of course dependent on the lens too) is just incredible. I also think there tele lens are the best in the world if you take into consideration AF, IS and optics. If you look at optics alone their lenses are not bad. However, i do agree that the wide angle has been the weakest group of lenses in their arsenal. I think what Guy was trying to point out is that they should focus (and i mean focus) some of their efforts on the wide angle market. Mark

Feb 21, 2006 at 10:53 PM


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