Sprout Crumble wrote:
Its not about a direct D200 competitor Jman, its about broadening and developing Canons biggest selling digital format.
Of course it is! Which is why the 30D makes sense...if they released a massively improved camera, it would be very close to the 5D, and priced accordingly...leaving a HUGE jump for those to go from the Rebel XT to a 30D. If they inserted a camera into the 20D->5D area, you've got market saturation, with 5 different models, all very close to one another....not smart either.
The 30D just brings so little to the range that it can only be seen as a huge disappointment. Its a 20Dn. If Canon had released it as such and another higher model for around $2000, I'd have been very happy indeed.
As it stands, APS-C as a format has not advanced one iota and the range is still unbalanced.
I think the range is very balanced...perhaps not in a price point situation, but capability wise it is. You've got budget (Rebel XT - $850), Prosumer (3D - $1399), compact professional (5D - $2800), Professional sports (1DIIn - $4000) and Professional, top IQ (1DsII - $7700). Not a bad lineup. Charging $2000 for the 'prosumer' camera would KILL sales, and making the 30D essentially a 5D or better with a 1.6x sensor would overlap WAY too much with the 5D.
True, the 30D isn't a direct competitor to the D200...so what? Nikon has no direct competitor to the 5D?
For those of you who just HAVE to upgrade every year, yeah, you might be a bit disappointed, but I think this gives us a fantastic camera. The 30D is now a practically flawless (not completely, but VERY close) prosumer DSLR. There's very little that one could want in a mid-range body. Want superior autofocus, resolution galore and weather sealing? Go 1-Series. Want full frame? Go 5D. Want a well built, do everything in a compact package at a reasonable price? The 30D is PERFECT for that.
I think too many people expected a D200 at the 20D's price point...and that was never going to happen.
If you were a rebel owner , looking to upgrade the body, why would you bother with the 30D?? Why not get a 20D at discounted prices? This is pretty sad, I hope Canon has something else to offer pretty soon.
scott f wrote:
If you were a rebel owner , looking to upgrade the body, why would you bother with the 30D?? Why not get a 20D at discounted prices? This is pretty sad, I hope Canon has something else to offer pretty soon.
I agree...but only because I'm REALLY cheap. I like the 30D upgrades. They addresses all the niggles people had with the 20D.
More importantly, perhaps this marks a turning point in the "more Mpix" mania. Canon stopped for a deep breath and addressed handling issues and let the Mpix thing go by.
I suspect they need the next generation processor before they can up the Mpix without sacrificing speed or noise. They will likely wait to debut that processor on a 1 series camera, so maybe we'll see it in the sucessors to the 30D and 5D.
I take the new 85mm as a positive sign as well. Could it be that Canon intends to slowly address some of the old primes? That would be a welcome trend.
tuannie wrote:
Upgrade if you are using the 300D/10D...
Sorry, I need more than this 30D has to offer to pull $1100 out of my pocket. My life will be no worse for having the 300D for another year, and maybe next year I'll have saved enough to get a significant upgrade -- like whatever succeeds the 5D.
Eventually, the 5D series will drop to 1800-2000 dollars (after the upcoming rebate, it's already looking like $2500)--probably within 18 months. It and It's successor (3d?), will be the direct competitor to the Dx00 cameras, I guess.
I always thought of the 20d as a competitor to the D100/D200, and not a competitor to the D70. I guess I was wrong.
I have to admit, I wasn't excited about the 5d for 3500 dollars--but I said back then, 2000-2500, and maybe it'd catch my eye. What is exciting, for me, is wondering what the 5d successor will be. It has a lot of room for upgrades.
I was a little let down with the 30d specs, but I know that if it was called a 20dn, I'd be more than happy with the new features--So, it's just a name, and I should be happy with the spot meter, iso incremements (and viewfinder readout, right?) and larger LCD.
I think the 30D is great, having owned a 20D this new camera really addresses all the issues that one might have had with the camera.
The only thing I sort of don't get is why you can see the ISO changes but they're not shown in the viewfinder, seems like a weird decision on Canon's part.
I think Canon has a great lineup, but it is true that the price difference between the 30D and 5D is absolutely huge. I think Canon could release something in the 2000 price bracket, make it a 1.6 crop and not necessarily kill sales of either the 30D or the 5D.
But I think what Canon is going for is to eventually drop the 5D down to something like 2200-2500 at some point and release new 1series bodies.
Man, 140 or so posts complaining about the upgrade and it seems like nearly everyone has missed noticing this incredible revolution. You think Canon's engineers are asleep at the wheel? Well, what about this sweet thing:
PRINT BUTTON!!!
Yeah baby. You can connect your camera to a printer and press a single button and get prints out. I was all set to pay $2K extra to get a 5D just so I could do this, but now thank god Canon has come out with the 30D. FF is totally over-rated, and if you listen to Ken Rockwell big viewfinders are nothing - in fact, according to him they should make them intentionally blurry to help with composition - and there is no one smarter than Mr. Rockwell. But who-yah Kenny-boy can your Nikon print pictures with the single press of a button? Ha - I thought not!
You know, this is a huge blunder for Canon. Now that they've moved the print button onto the 30D they will be totally cutting into their 5D sales. Hey everyone, sell your 5D now while you can still get a few bucks for it!
Ken
P.S. In all seriousness I'm not at all sad it is still 8MP, personally I think the MP race should be over at about this pixel pitch and other features are now more important.
Jman13 wrote:
Of course it is! Which is why the 30D makes sense...if they released a massively improved camera, it would be very close to the 5D, and priced accordingly...leaving a HUGE jump for those to go from the Rebel XT to a 30D. If they inserted a camera into the 20D->5D area, you've got market saturation, with 5 different models, all very close to one another....not smart either.
I think the range is very balanced...perhaps not in a price point situation, but capability wise it is. You've got budget (Rebel XT - $850), Prosumer (3D - $1399), compact professional (5D - $2800), Professional sports (1DIIn - $4000) and Professional, top IQ (1DsII - $7700). Not a bad lineup. Charging $2000 for the 'prosumer' camera would KILL sales, and making the 30D essentially a 5D or better with a 1.6x sensor would overlap WAY too much with the 5D. ...Show more →
I did not say remove the 20d(n). A 3D would be an additional model and it makes total sense from a consumer and profit sense. The 350D and 20D have very similar capabilities and sell for prices quite close. There is no cheap and cheerful model to get people hooked into the system nor is there a pro-spec model with an APS-C sensor, both serious failings. How the hell can you claim the five models are close to each other? The 1Ds2 is way out in orbit and an irrelevance to 99.9% of users, the 1D2n is the price of a 20D away from the 5D and the 20D is under half the cost of the 5D, the latter a niche product anyway. No way is Canons range balanced. If Nikon can sell shed-loads of D2X's at greater than 1D2n prices, then theres an obvious market for a $2200 EOS 3D where the huge majority of sales remains.
True, the 30D isn't a direct competitor to the D200...so what? Nikon has no direct competitor to the 5D?
For those of you who just HAVE to upgrade every year, yeah, you might be a bit disappointed, but I think this gives us a fantastic camera. The 30D is now a practically flawless (not completely, but VERY close) prosumer DSLR. There's very little that one could want in a mid-range body. Want superior autofocus, resolution galore and weather sealing? Go 1-Series. Want full frame? Go 5D. Want a well built, do everything in a compact package at a reasonable price? The 30D is PERFECT for that.
I think too many people expected a D200 at the 20D's price point...and that was never going to happen. ...Show more →
Nobody has a direct competitor to the 5D because noone else sells a $1500 spec for $3000 (sensor aside). People choose the 5D for the sensor. My point is that Canon need a high-end APS-C body. Why must I buy a 1D to get weather-sealing, 45-point AF, wi-fi etc? I don't want a damn 1D for $4000. I want a 1D-lite for under $2500. I don't want a 30D, already got one and you're right, its as good a mid-range body as you could expect, but then so was the 20D.
Do you not understand? I want a pro-spec body and feature set and i want an APS-C sensor. The gap in the range is there, the market is there and the technology is there. So where is it?
While we're on the subject, given that the 30D offers next to bugger all on the actual hardware side, will Canon kindly give us 20D owners a firmware upgrade to benefit from the improved AF and buffer handling amongst other things?
Sprout Crumble wrote:
While we're on the subject, given that the 30D offers next to bugger all on the actual hardware side, will Canon kindly give us 20D owners a firmware upgrade to benefit from the improved AF and buffer handling amongst other things?
..and lose a fair proportion of those that were going to upgrade to gain the features...not likely!
I still think there is another 2 bodies coming - perhaps a big splash at PMA? A surprise whammie?
3000D - a EVF 6mp dSLR for $500. One reason for the low price entry level dSLR is to get people into the 'system' and buying lenses. Canon invented this category with the 300D, and now the 350XT is at the high end of it....big gap here.
35D or 3D or 50D, what have you. 10.5Mp, 5.5fps, hopoefully weather sealing, and $1700-1900 to compete with (and beat) the D200. I agree there is a gap in the line up here that Nikon has filled. But then we all said the 5D was filling agap that didn't exist, and well, they're selling rather well so Canon knew something we didn't. Perhaps they know there is no market for a 1.6x camera for 2 grand?
But then again, I hear they're gonna make TVs, so perhaps their capital and R&D is tied up.
As for me, I'll be getting a 30D - I am the target market, a 300D owner ready to move up. THe only question is - order ASAP, or wait 6 weeks and hope for $100 price drop as the channels get full of product.
Interesting, this 30D. Canon must have known about the D200 while they were in R&D but they still decided not to directly compete for megapixels and just do the obvious 20D upgrades...
I really wouldn't be surprised if they did have another cam up their sleeve.
As I've said here before I also don't think they want to be seen to have a prosumer cam have more megapixels than their 1DIIN, so that might get more pixels before long too
