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kwalsh
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p.7 #1 · finally 30D !!!

Man, 140 or so posts complaining about the upgrade and it seems like nearly everyone has missed noticing this incredible revolution. You think Canon's engineers are asleep at the wheel? Well, what about this sweet thing:

PRINT BUTTON!!!

Yeah baby. You can connect your camera to a printer and press a single button and get prints out. I was all set to pay $2K extra to get a 5D just so I could do this, but now thank god Canon has come out with the 30D. FF is totally over-rated, and if you listen to Ken Rockwell big viewfinders are nothing - in fact, according to him they should make them intentionally blurry to help with composition - and there is no one smarter than Mr. Rockwell. But who-yah Kenny-boy can your Nikon print pictures with the single press of a button? Ha - I thought not!

You know, this is a huge blunder for Canon. Now that they've moved the print button onto the 30D they will be totally cutting into their 5D sales. Hey everyone, sell your 5D now while you can still get a few bucks for it!

Ken

P.S. In all seriousness I'm not at all sad it is still 8MP, personally I think the MP race should be over at about this pixel pitch and other features are now more important.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 03:23 PM

Gatorboy
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p.7 #2 · finally 30D !!!

They say improved AF -- if it is greatly improved, then I will be upgrading. I will be waiting for the reviews.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 03:52 PM

jdaily
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p.7 #3 · finally 30D !!!

Forum isn't turning the page. Strange, usually the 2nd post on a new page will fix things.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:11 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.7 #4 · finally 30D !!!

Jman13 wrote:
Of course it is! Which is why the 30D makes sense...if they released a massively improved camera, it would be very close to the 5D, and priced accordingly...leaving a HUGE jump for those to go from the Rebel XT to a 30D. If they inserted a camera into the 20D->5D area, you've got market saturation, with 5 different models, all very close to one another....not smart either.

I think the range is very balanced...perhaps not in a price point situation, but capability wise it is. You've got budget (Rebel XT - $850), Prosumer (3D - $1399), compact professional (5D - $2800), Professional sports (1DIIn - $4000) and Professional, top IQ (1DsII - $7700). Not a bad lineup. Charging $2000 for the 'prosumer' camera would KILL sales, and making the 30D essentially a 5D or better with a 1.6x sensor would overlap WAY too much with the 5D.

I did not say remove the 20d(n). A 3D would be an additional model and it makes total sense from a consumer and profit sense. The 350D and 20D have very similar capabilities and sell for prices quite close. There is no cheap and cheerful model to get people hooked into the system nor is there a pro-spec model with an APS-C sensor, both serious failings. How the hell can you claim the five models are close to each other? The 1Ds2 is way out in orbit and an irrelevance to 99.9% of users, the 1D2n is the price of a 20D away from the 5D and the 20D is under half the cost of the 5D, the latter a niche product anyway. No way is Canons range balanced. If Nikon can sell shed-loads of D2X's at greater than 1D2n prices, then theres an obvious market for a $2200 EOS 3D where the huge majority of sales remains.

True, the 30D isn't a direct competitor to the D200...so what? Nikon has no direct competitor to the 5D?

For those of you who just HAVE to upgrade every year, yeah, you might be a bit disappointed, but I think this gives us a fantastic camera. The 30D is now a practically flawless (not completely, but VERY close) prosumer DSLR. There's very little that one could want in a mid-range body. Want superior autofocus, resolution galore and weather sealing? Go 1-Series. Want full frame? Go 5D. Want a well built, do everything in a compact package at a reasonable price? The 30D is PERFECT for that.

I think too many people expected a D200 at the 20D's price point...and that was never going to happen.

Nobody has a direct competitor to the 5D because noone else sells a $1500 spec for $3000 (sensor aside). People choose the 5D for the sensor. My point is that Canon need a high-end APS-C body. Why must I buy a 1D to get weather-sealing, 45-point AF, wi-fi etc? I don't want a damn 1D for $4000. I want a 1D-lite for under $2500. I don't want a 30D, already got one and you're right, its as good a mid-range body as you could expect, but then so was the 20D.
Do you not understand? I want a pro-spec body and feature set and i want an APS-C sensor. The gap in the range is there, the market is there and the technology is there. So where is it?

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:20 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.7 #5 · finally 30D !!!

While we're on the subject, given that the 30D offers next to bugger all on the actual hardware side, will Canon kindly give us 20D owners a firmware upgrade to benefit from the improved AF and buffer handling amongst other things?

Nikon did.

But my guess is no.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:24 PM

dhphoto
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p.7 #6 · finally 30D !!!

Sprout Crumble wrote:
While we're on the subject, given that the 30D offers next to bugger all on the actual hardware side, will Canon kindly give us 20D owners a firmware upgrade to benefit from the improved AF and buffer handling amongst other things?

..and lose a fair proportion of those that were going to upgrade to gain the features...not likely!

David

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:27 PM

prof_fate
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p.7 #7 · finally 30D !!!

I still think there is another 2 bodies coming - perhaps a big splash at PMA? A surprise whammie?

3000D - a EVF 6mp dSLR for $500. One reason for the low price entry level dSLR is to get people into the 'system' and buying lenses. Canon invented this category with the 300D, and now the 350XT is at the high end of it....big gap here.

35D or 3D or 50D, what have you. 10.5Mp, 5.5fps, hopoefully weather sealing, and $1700-1900 to compete with (and beat) the D200. I agree there is a gap in the line up here that Nikon has filled. But then we all said the 5D was filling agap that didn't exist, and well, they're selling rather well so Canon knew something we didn't. Perhaps they know there is no market for a 1.6x camera for 2 grand?

But then again, I hear they're gonna make TVs, so perhaps their capital and R&D is tied up.

As for me, I'll be getting a 30D - I am the target market, a 300D owner ready to move up. THe only question is - order ASAP, or wait 6 weeks and hope for $100 price drop as the channels get full of product.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:33 PM

ShadowWalker
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p.7 #8 · finally 30D !!!

Yawn .... and it uses the crappy grip from the 20D. No thanks. Maybe I'll go for the 5D when Canon starts offering a rebate on it.

And a print button? What a bunch of crap. Make that button programmable so people can make it do what they want e.g. MLU

Edited by ShadowWalker on Feb 21, 2006 at 08:43 AM GMT

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:42 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.7 #9 · finally 30D !!!

dhphoto wrote:
Sprout Crumble wrote:
While we're on the subject, given that the 30D offers next to bugger all on the actual hardware side, will Canon kindly give us 20D owners a firmware upgrade to benefit from the improved AF and buffer handling amongst other things?

..and lose a fair proportion of those that were going to upgrade to gain the features...not likely!

David

Cynical as me

Must be a British thing.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:42 PM

dhphoto
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p.7 #10 · finally 30D !!!

Cynical as me

Must be a British thing.

And proud of it!

Interesting, this 30D. Canon must have known about the D200 while they were in R&D but they still decided not to directly compete for megapixels and just do the obvious 20D upgrades...

I really wouldn't be surprised if they did have another cam up their sleeve.

As I've said here before I also don't think they want to be seen to have a prosumer cam have more megapixels than their 1DIIN, so that might get more pixels before long too

David

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:53 PM

CurtPick
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p.7 #11 · finally 30D !!!

This is like listening to a bunch of Hens in a Chicken Coop ! It never ends !

Lets remember that technology has it peaks in all venues. And the DSLR market is near its peak. The initial goal was to create a platform that would mimic or equal the 35mm film platform, both in functionality and in picture quality. There is only so much you can do to get to the point where the two become equals. And thanks to engineering the manufacturers have nearly equaled film. You can only push shutter speeds so far, you can only have so many megapixels before the human eye no longer sees the diffference. Now that they have nearly perfected digital metering, the next step will be to refine the chip. You will see a digic III procesor next because the current platform has exhausted its capabilities. You will see more true to life colors, you will see virtually noiseless digital photos, but after that what can they do ?
The incremental upgrades that all manufacturers do is simply a stepping stone in digital technologies. Canon gave everyone using the 20D platform what they ask for. A completely refined 20D ( with exception of MLU ). YOu can count on that in the next release. Canon made a very smart move here, they used the same platform as the 5D ( body, LCD , etc...) That cuts their manufacturing cost to be sure. A very wise business decision. Is it targeted at 20D users who want to upgrade, well... yes and no. It fits as a decent upgrade but even more so as a Very nice prosumer body. Canon now will have to make the decision of eliminating the EF-S platform of lenses. And that will be done. Thier only road for another Body now is a 1.3x sensor or a noiser 1.6x with more Megapixels.
Dont expect it to happen overnight. There was a lot of monies spent on the devolpment of the 5D platform. Complete re-tooling was required and until they recoop those cost the 20D platform will be tweaked as will the 5D.

I applaud any manufactuere that gives the consumer what they ask for. And believe Canon has done exactly that with this release without killing there own bottom line.

Edited by CurtPick on Feb 21, 2006 at 06:32 PM GMT

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 04:55 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.7 #12 · finally 30D !!!

I think this year will see the 1d series reduced to one body and the staggering premium for the 1Ds disappear. Canon can't keep up this charade of production costs any longer and if they're sincere in their belief that FF is the future, they won't be able to.

Sincerely hope you're right on another body. Not bothered about MP count as have always been chuffed with the 20D's quality, but want that tough body, sharp AF, wi-fi, mirror lock etc without having to sell the car.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 05:00 PM

ImperialRed
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p.7 #13 · finally 30D !!!

From what I see...about 99% of the complaints here are from people that already have the 20D or maybe even the 5D. I understand that you may be upset but for me as a 10D owner...I think this is a great camera.

More stuff than the 20D...for less money than it (the 20D) was initially introduced for.

Sionora 10D........30D here I come!

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 05:08 PM

David.G
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p.7 #14 · finally 30D !!!

Like everyone else, not really impressed other than the larger lcd. I won't be selling my 20D anytime soon because it will become my backup when I eventually buy a 30D...or maybe even the 5D.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 05:26 PM

jdaily
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p.7 #15 · finally 30D !!!

CurtPick wrote:
Canon now will have to make the decision of eliminating the EF-S platform of lenses. And that will be done.

I would have believed that yesterday, but now that Canon has announced a $1200 EF-S lens, I'm not so sure.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 05:48 PM

abam
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p.7 #16 · finally 30D !!!

the vast majority of canon dslr users use EF-S bodies. because 1.6 sensors are cheaper to produce, canon will have a 1.6 lineup for some years to come. they have to, or else nikon or oly will gain on canon's market share by taking up the very lucrative segment of amateur/enthusiast camera users.

EF-S isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 05:56 PM

jray
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p.7 #17 · finally 30D !!!

Let's see, we've already started finding problems with the 30D without seeing any production model test results.

Are the added features over the 20D worth the upgrade? Well it depends on where you are upgrading from, and what features are important to you.

I still use 10Ds. Although I was tempted to upgrade when the 20D came out (instant on, high precision focus mode with f2.8 or faster lenses, lower noise at high ISO, mush faster write times to the memory card verses the 10D, a grip that could use AA batts, etc), there were a few things that held me back. The shutter noise was aggravating, and the reduced body size was not a plus in my book, however the six RAW file buffer size was the real turn off for me.

I shoot RAW. Yes there are times when I shoot jpg files for one reason or another, but most of the time I live in the RAW mode. Six frames just didn't cut it. The 30D fixes the buffer problem for the most part IMO, and coupled with the fast memory card write time of the 20D, this should make for a decent high speed platform.

What about the 30D's new features?

Selectable 3/5fps rate: Great, I really wanted this feature.
Improved AF performance: This is always a plus, but real world comparison tests are needed.
ISO selectable in 1/3 stops: Thank you Canon. Now we need to see if the noise is also equally distributed.
ISO in viewfinder: I'm glad for this, but I came up with a system to set ISO without looking.
Better joystick: Having used a 20D but not owning own, I'll have to assume it's better.
RGB histogram: Nice. I shoot RAW and use the histogram for exposure decisions in most cases.
3.5 degree spot meter: Since I use the histogram for exposure, this is less of a big deal to me.
Improved shutter design: Once again, always a plus. I hope it's quieter like the 5D.
Larger LCD: Always a plus if the intensity stays high.

Things they didn't add:

More pixels: Good! I'm glad to see Canon knows when to stop. More than 8-9MP on a 1.6x 35mm format is just asking for trouble. More noise, and the one problem that is insurmountable, diffraction limiting at smaller apertures.
Body size: I would have liked a 5D sized body, thank you very much.
MLU: Yep, I would love this. In fact I'd like to see a few user assignable button combinations. I mentioned such a scheme on the RB forums a few years back.

Some are mentioning things that were not upgraded without having any information to support it. For example, the mention that images will not be of any better quality on the 30D, is non-supported by anything I've read so far. Yes, Canon intends to use the same sensor as the 20D, but this does not mean they haven't made other advances to improve noise figures and possibly dynamic range.

I have yet to see a Canon DSLR replacement come out that did not show at least slight advancements in high ISO noise figures, and quite often improved dynamic range as well. I'm hoping the 30D will be no exception.

As far as evolutionary verses revolutionary, what did you expect. All new technologies will hit certain stumbling blocks as they mature, and digital photography is no exception. Since there is little to be gained for 1.6x image sensors by adding additional pixels, the manufacturers have to concentrate their attention on other things. Lower noise, especially at higher ISO setting, higher usable ISO setting due to the previous, better dynamic range, inherently sharper images created by the use of less aggressive AA filters through better microlens designs, etc. There are lots of places where improvements can be made that are not related to producing larger MP sensors for a particular format.

Anyway, as a 10D owner I will be watching the 30D test results a reviews carefully since I feel this might be a camera I could live with for a few years.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 06:49 PM

lexvo
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p.7 #18 · finally 30D !!!

EOS20 wrote:
Oh well, heres to Photokina and the new rumour mill!

Cheers!

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 06:50 PM

Richie S
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p.7 #19 · finally 30D !!!

bring on the next round. It made sense to keep a camera in the market at this level, just like it makes sense to pitch another Camera somewhere between 1700 and 2200. It'll come I'm sure...... the next round of rumors can begin ;o)

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 07:26 PM

adamfilip
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p.7 #20 · finally 30D !!!

Question - Who will use the print button?

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 07:34 PM

EOS20
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p.7 #21 · finally 30D !!!

I wonder if we will see a 30Da?

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 07:48 PM

DmitriM
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p.7 #22 · finally 30D !!!

I am not impressed. I wanted more. I just hope they've improved AF. This is the LEAST they can do. 20D isn't the best at it. Print button? That's just stupid...
I just hope they'll release a Second Version of 30D..like 30D II or something with 10-12MP.

D200 won the challenge race and that's sad. The right marketing would not be compete but dominate!! Canon surely failed at that.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 07:52 PM

JCDoss
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p.7 #23 · finally 30D !!!

DutchGuy wrote:
Gijs wrote:
Canon have done really well to tempt me with this new 30D. It adresses exactly the (minor) issues I'm having with the 20D:
- spot metering
- RGB histogram
- better joystick for AF point selection
- ISO in 1/3 steps
- ISO in viewfinder

But is it enough to upgrade ?

I think so. I have a 20D and I think these new functions are worth upgrading to especially since the price will go down and the 20D will still be worth something. IOW, the price of this "upgrade" really isn't all that much.

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:37 PM

uyehara
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p.7 #24 · finally 30D !!!

20D price drop on Amazon (Body Only) $1,129.94 vs B&H $1,141.95

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:52 PM

RyanFlynn
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p.7 #25 · finally 30D !!!

I think one could only be dissappointed if your expectations were too high to begin with. It's a 20Dn, and for what it is, they did a good job. 1-2 more MP are only necessary from a marketing standpoint, because some people think that's actually important. I'll stick with a clean 8.2 rather than a noisy 10ish. I just don't get the disappointment over not having a couple more MP...

The other features are very cool, especially the bigger LCD, deeper buffer, and ISO 1/3 stops. But the Direct Print button is still rediculous...who would ever use it?

The only thing I was hoping it would have, is weather sealing. As far as I see it, that's the ONLY thing better on the D200 than the 20D/30D. Weather-sealing and a bigger LCD would have been enough for me to sell the 20D. I'm sticking with the 20D, and happily, too!

For newcomers to the DSLR scene, I think it's great.

Can someone verify the "updated shutter life" of 100,000 actuations? I've always heard/read that the 20D is rated to 100k, too

Edited on Feb 23, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Feb 21, 2006 at 09:59 PM


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