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plastic Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #1 · Small sensor=noise? Really? In the debate of FF against smaller sized sensors, one of the main arguments of the FF followers is that for the same number of megapixels, a FF chip will produce less noise than a smaller one due to its lower pixel density. However, the Finepix F10, a point and shoot with a sensor-so-small-you-could-laugh-at-it, provides a range of ISO 80 to 1600, that seems to be fully useable. You can check the review on line. When talking about the future of DSLR and digital photography in general, I believe people tend to forget that the technology behind the sensors is not all about their physical size. I can imagine that in a few years, point and shoots will have noise levels pretty similar to today's DSLRs. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 08:47 AM

jmcfadden Online Image Upload: On p.1 #2 · Small sensor=noise? Really? the very people that talk about noise (hint , hint, they don't shoot Nikon ) are the ones who do not realize the the 20D has very small photosites and yet is regarded as the Holy Grail of benchmarks for that all important specification J Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 01:48 PM

Mark Jamison Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #3 · Small sensor=noise? Really? jmcfadden wrote: the very people that talk about noise (hint , hint, they don't shoot Nikon ) are the ones who do not realize the the 20D has very small photosites and yet is regarded as the Holy Grail of benchmarks for that all important specification J All too true. Of course they also seem to believe that Noise can be solved without any sacrifices elsewhere. Then they say that the reason why a Nikon D70 is sharper out of Camera than the 20D is because of more in camera Sharpening. I've even had soemeone tell me that my D70 pictures are sharper because of more in-camer sharpening, which is funny, since I only shoot Raw in the first place. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 02:00 PM

Osai Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #4 · Small sensor=noise? Really? You have to realize that there are two kinds of people.......those that talk about their gear.............and those that actually USE their equipment. There are WAY too many people on this website that are Way into comparing specs as a way to justify their purchase. Ther was a guy the other day that was stressing over whether his entry level DSLR was better than his buddies P&S. I have a feeling that those that stress out about noise have never shot film. I've never added sharpening (I shoot raw mostly) to any of my digital cameras(5700 (small CCD), D70 (larger CCD), D2X (CMOS)), nor have I ever had a problem with it. But then, I understand what causes it, how to deal with it and how to sometimes use it to my advantage (there are times that I want noise). I also never sharpen my raw images. I'm told that the 20D's add sharpness in camera due to the softness of the CMOS chip. Edited by Osai on Aug 12, 2005 at 03:17 PM GMT Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 03:06 PM

Mark Jamison Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #5 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Osai wrote: You have to realize that there are two kinds of people.......those that talk about their gear.............and those that actually USE their equipment. There are WAY too many people on this website that are Way into comparing specs as a way to justify their purchase. Ther was a guy the other day that was stressing over whether his entry level DSLR was better than his buddies P&S. I have a feeling that those that stress out about noise have never shot film. Heh. No doubt. I think they also haven't used any of the superlative noise removal programs available. I mean Noise Ninja makes ISO 1600 1D files look good. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 03:13 PM

logo29a Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #6 · Small sensor=noise? Really? All things being equal, larger photosites (pixels) will have lower noise. The problem is that not all things are equal. There are other factors such as molecular composition, well size, dark current, read noise, and peak qe. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 03:13 PM

Osai Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #7 · Small sensor=noise? Really? logo29a wrote: All things being equal, larger photosites (pixels) will have lower noise. The problem is that not all things are equal. There are other factors such as molecular composition, well size, dark current, read noise, and peak qe. And all this time I thought noise was due to a Karma / Aura thing....who knew Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 12, 2005 at 03:46 PM

Karen80 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #8 · Small sensor=noise? Really? The D2X shows this isn't always true. The D2X has smaller photosites than either the Canon 20D or 1DSII, yet according to Phil Askey's review on DPReview, the D2X has lower noise than either up to and including ISO 400 with internal noise reduction turned off, and has lower noise than either all the way to ISO 3200 when the D2X's internal noise reduction is turned on. Karen. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 13, 2005 at 01:08 AM

mcanyes Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #9 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Does anyone remember Tri-X and Acufine at ISO 1200. Noise, HAH! Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 13, 2005 at 10:45 AM

Glenn01 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #10 · Small sensor=noise? Really? OK, I see it's time to set all you guys and girls straight on this noise issue . There is absolutely a definite correlation between noise and sensor size, but most people have it backwards! The LARGER the sensor, the GREATER the noise! Think about it, a smaller sensor requires a smaller shutter. In fact, it may even be that the chamber leading to the shutter curtain is a bit smaller. Thus, you have a smaller object flinging open and closed, and maybe even a smaller mirror slapping up and then crashing back down onto its mounts. Now, if all that action of objects hitting stops is smaller, it's going to have less force. Less force causes less movement of air as a result of the impact, and as we all know, sudden air movement is what we refer to as sound, or in this case, "NOISE". The bigger sensors have much larger shutter curtains and mirrors, and thus will have much more impact when they hit the stops and as such will cause a LOT more vibration of the air and thus cause a LOT more NOISE! See what I'm getting at (if you do, you need help worse than I do )? Ergo, the Canon 1DS Mk II V2.952 sub-V3.5 has a bigger sensor and thus makes MORE noise than the DX2 or D2H (V anything), and thus a much MORE noisier than the Nikons. Now, I have to admit, I have a friend who shoots Canon (hey, us Nikon people are a charitable group after all) and I listened to his shutter opening and closing and frankly had a hard time telling if his camera made more noise than my D2X, but then I'm deaf in my left ear, so maybe that was it. However, we were both shooting the same thing here in S. Ontario last week and my camera didn't cause any trouble, but as soon as he triggered his shutter, it caused the whole herd of centipedes to stampede for cover (talk about noise!!! ), so who knows. There you go. I hope that once and for all settles the "noise" issue. If you have a problem with noise, wear ear muffs. Now, if you'll excuse me, it's time for my medication again. Glenn (<-- but I'll deny it to anyone who asks) Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 13, 2005 at 01:29 PM

Osai Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #11 · Small sensor=noise? Really? OOOH !! you guys were talking about NOISE ! I thought you were saying NOSE ! you know the bigger the nose the bigger the................... nevermind ! Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 13, 2005 at 10:28 PM

camerapapi Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #12 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Osai I have only one word to add to your statement: AMEN. William Rodriguez Miami, Florida. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 14, 2005 at 01:36 AM

logo29a Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #13 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Glenn01 wrote: OK, I see it's time to set all you guys and girls straight on this noise issue . There is absolutely a definite correlation between noise and sensor size, but most people have it backwards! The LARGER the sensor, the GREATER the noise! Think about it, a smaller sensor requires a smaller shutter. In fact, it may even be that the chamber leading to the shutter curtain is a bit smaller. Thus, you have a smaller object flinging open and closed, and maybe even a smaller mirror slapping up and then crashing back down onto its mounts. Now, if all that action of objects hitting stops is smaller, it's going to have less force. Less force causes less movement of air as a result of the impact, and as we all know, sudden air movement is what we refer to as sound, or in this case, "NOISE". The bigger sensors have much larger shutter curtains and mirrors, and thus will have much more impact when they hit the stops and as such will cause a LOT more vibration of the air and thus cause a LOT more NOISE! See what I'm getting at (if you do, you need help worse than I do )? Ergo, the Canon 1DS Mk II V2.952 sub-V3.5 has a bigger sensor and thus makes MORE noise than the DX2 or D2H (V anything), and thus a much MORE noisier than the Nikons. Now, I have to admit, I have a friend who shoots Canon (hey, us Nikon people are a charitable group after all) and I listened to his shutter opening and closing and frankly had a hard time telling if his camera made more noise than my D2X, but then I'm deaf in my left ear, so maybe that was it. However, we were both shooting the same thing here in S. Ontario last week and my camera didn't cause any trouble, but as soon as he triggered his shutter, it caused the whole herd of centipedes to stampede for cover (talk about noise!!! ), so who knows. There you go. I hope that once and for all settles the "noise" issue. If you have a problem with noise, wear ear muffs. Now, if you'll excuse me, it's time for my medication again. Glenn (<-- but I'll deny it to anyone who asks) The correlation is that larger sensors generally have larger photosites. It is a known fact, that all things being equal, larger photosites will produce less noise. Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 14, 2005 at 01:12 PM

Alan Louie Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #14 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Logo, you completely missed what Glenn was saying Read it again and think again about the word 'noise' Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 14, 2005 at 01:18 PM

jmcfadden Online Image Upload: On p.1 #15 · Small sensor=noise? Really? logo29a wrote: Glenn01 wrote: OK, I see it's time to set all you guys and girls straight on this noise issue . There is absolutely a definite correlation between noise and sensor size, but most people have it backwards! The LARGER the sensor, the GREATER the noise! Think about it, a smaller sensor requires a smaller shutter. In fact, it may even be that the chamber leading to the shutter curtain is a bit smaller. Thus, you have a smaller object flinging open and closed, and maybe even a smaller mirror slapping up and then crashing back down onto its mounts. Now, if all that action of objects hitting stops is smaller, it's going to have less force. Less force causes less movement of air as a result of the impact, and as we all know, sudden air movement is what we refer to as sound, or in this case, "NOISE". The bigger sensors have much larger shutter curtains and mirrors, and thus will have much more impact when they hit the stops and as such will cause a LOT more vibration of the air and thus cause a LOT more NOISE! See what I'm getting at (if you do, you need help worse than I do )? Ergo, the Canon 1DS Mk II V2.952 sub-V3.5 has a bigger sensor and thus makes MORE noise than the DX2 or D2H (V anything), and thus a much MORE noisier than the Nikons. Now, I have to admit, I have a friend who shoots Canon (hey, us Nikon people are a charitable group after all) and I listened to his shutter opening and closing and frankly had a hard time telling if his camera made more noise than my D2X, but then I'm deaf in my left ear, so maybe that was it. However, we were both shooting the same thing here in S. Ontario last week and my camera didn't cause any trouble, but as soon as he triggered his shutter, it caused the whole herd of centipedes to stampede for cover (talk about noise!!! ), so who knows. There you go. I hope that once and for all settles the "noise" issue. If you have a problem with noise, wear ear muffs. Now, if you'll excuse me, it's time for my medication again. Glenn (<-- but I'll deny it to anyone who asks) The correlation is that larger sensors generally have larger photosites. It is a known fact, that all things being equal, larger photosites will produce less noise. Wow , you realize Glenn was joking right ? J Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 14, 2005 at 01:20 PM

logo29a Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #16 · Small sensor=noise? Really? Sorry...sometimes when I'm tired I just glance over longer posts! Edited on Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM Aug 15, 2005 at 03:32 PM

molson Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #17 · Small sensor=noise? Really? logo29a wrote: It is a known fact, that all things being equal, larger photosites will produce less noise. It is a widely-held (if somewhat misinformed) belief, but that certainly does not make it a fact. Aug 15, 2005 at 03:43 PM

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