Nikon D2X white balance encryption

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Archive 2005 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Octavio Salles
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p.4 #1 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

bogatyr wrote:
That means, if I write a program, I should have the right to prevent third-party developers to write a program independent of my program, but which does the same thing?

How perverse is that?

Lets just let those free software programmers develop their own DSLR with its own RAW format then....

To me these free softwares are like a hungry school of piranhas trying to get a bite. And its not that they won't be able to open Nikon NEF files alltogether... they will open it allright, but just a detail will be left out... if people insist on using that WB detail they can go and buy a NC or a PS (I'm sure they will license Adobe to use it). There are many ways around this WB issue... starting on color balance which any program can do and is a more effective way to control WB anyway IMHO.

We are doing a huge issue out of nothing.

Apr 20, 2005 at 12:44 PM

Octavio Salles
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p.4 #2 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

stevenrk wrote:
Nikon executives (see posts here) have accepted this as true and are responding. Thomas Knol is one of the two creators of PS and is also quoted in this post. Please inform us what about the statements of Nikon executives or of Thomas Knoll are not accurate?

What Nikon executives ??

Thomas Knol works for ADOBE, that should explain.

Apr 20, 2005 at 12:46 PM

Xavier Rival
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p.4 #3 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

What a funny thread! Reminds me the good time about the Canon 300D locked features and what happened then

It seems that camera compagnies really do not understand much to computers and they are learning slowly. Photographers are much more aware about the computer problems that the camera makers, which gives me much hope in the future.

Edited by Xavier Rival on Apr 20, 2005 at 01:57 PM GMT

Apr 20, 2005 at 01:56 PM

Glenn01
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p.4 #4 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

OK, I'll bite. What DID happen?

Glenn

Apr 20, 2005 at 01:57 PM

Xavier Rival
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p.4 #5 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Glenn01 wrote:
OK, I'll bite. What DID happen?

Glenn

Very simple: Canon did use software to lock some features of the camera, differentiate their products. I do not disagree that they had to differentiate the products; they chose the simplest way for that.

Consequence: Some people good at hacking computers became curious about what was in the firmware and hacked it. They unlocked the software locked features. They started thinking about features they would like to see (I did not follow closely whether new features were designed by them or not; I never was interested in the 300D). I am not sure we would have seen that if the feature removal had not been purely software based.

I am not sure but I believe they will not do that again (at least they did not do that with the 350D).

The encryption of some fields of Exif files is obviously not directly comparable, but still a bad move in the software point of view, which will cause the aggravation of the customers who just wanted to use another software than NC.

What I would expect now is people get concerned about what is in the files out of the camera. I already tried to read the RAW of my own camera one year ago... and found some open source program that does just that (dcraw). I am curious whether we will see a dcraw update including support for D2Hs and D2X cameras; if yes, then you will see the decryption algorithm publically available.

What I see now is a lot of discussion here and on other forums about the aspects of Raw files. A lot of discussions also about processing software (technical and legal aspects).

My own opinion about RAW is simple: standards make the life of people who use computers easier. Will NC 12 still support your old D2X files in 2015, when you will have a D5 ? Will you find a version of NC compatible with the OS you use by then ? I would like to see some standard, yet extendable formats appear for RAW (DNG is a great first step); be free to use my files now or later, on this or that computer with no restriction and still be able to get the full power out of it; Nikon is just heading the other way and I regret that.
I do not support hacking. But I think everyone, including Nikon would benefit from programmers implementing software their files at no cost for them and possibly inventing some features that should not be included in NC (what about DxO ?).

Apr 20, 2005 at 02:23 PM

jmaio
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p.4 #6 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Xavier,

You pose some interesting points. The other day, I was going through some family photos that were more than 35 years old. I wanted to find a few for a relative's birthday. It was no problem to find and then scan the slides. I enhanced them in PhotoShop and emailed them.

I wonder what will be the situation 35 years from now when not only the software standards may be unreadable, but we'll be trying to find an appliance that can read something called a "CD-ROM" or a "DVD".

Long-lasting, non-proprietary standards are really needed, or a big part of history will be lost.

Apr 20, 2005 at 02:38 PM

Glenn01
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p.4 #7 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Thanks for the info Xavier.

One of the things I discussed briefly with the Nikon Rep yesterday was DNG support. My feeling was that Nikon was not in favour of supporting that either. What a royal pain. I expressed to the rep that while Nikon has every right to protect their part of their systems, this whole thing is a terrible PR move and APPEARS very selfish on their part, and that they might lose far more in sales of new cameras then they would ever hope to gain back in sales of NC. Typically in business, whether a company is right or wrong, appearances are everything and THAT is what drives business in the end.

Glenn

Apr 20, 2005 at 03:28 PM

bourbonnais
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p.4 #8 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

FLAME ON!
I can't believe Nikon would try a stunt like this!
It is like they are trying to say that you can only use their film and their lab with their camera.
At least when the DVD companies tried to encrypt their DVD formats, Matshusta provided third party companies with the encryption/decription algorithms. Even that was cracked by a kid in Europe.
All this Nikon stunt will do is alienate a lot of their loyal users, myself included, and for what?
The encryption has already been broken, so even if Adobe doesn't provide an official plug-in, how long do you think it will take before hack plug-ins are floating around on the net?
WAKE UP NIKON THIS IS A STUPID MOVE ON YOUR PART!
YOU ARE LOOSING FACE OVER THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apr 20, 2005 at 05:21 PM

Qranc
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p.4 #9 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

It is like they are trying to say that you can only use their film and their lab with their camera.

Not at all. Nikon has said you can do what you like with their "film". You can still edit WB and everything else in post can't you? Well that's rhetorical and I'll save us some posts, YES you can.

They merely have said if you want the unlike film feature of adjusting WB in raw data before interpolation they will allow you to do that provided you use the software they created for that unlike film feature.

Comparing encrypted WB in raw data to film/lab/processing is just no where close. Closer description would be Fuji providing you with the ability to shoot with daylight balanced film and then adjusting before its developed.

Apr 20, 2005 at 06:31 PM

Octavio Salles
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p.4 #10 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Exactly Qranc, that's what I was trying to say.

Apr 20, 2005 at 07:11 PM

stevenrk
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p.4 #11 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Qranc said:
It is like they are trying to say that you can only use their film and their lab with their camera.

Not at all. Nikon has said you can do what you like with their "film". You can still edit WB and everything else in post can't you? Well that's rhetorical and I'll save us some posts, YES you can.

They merely have said if you want the unlike film feature of adjusting WB in raw data before interpolation they will allow you to do that provided you use the software they created for that unlike film feature.

Comparing encrypted WB in raw data to film/lab/processing is just no where close. Closer description would be Fuji providing you with the ability to shoot with daylight balanced film and then adjusting before its developed.

I have to respectfully, but strongly disagree. If you want to draw analogies, it is much closer to if PS suddenly updating their software to only allow you to save an image as a psd, and that image could only be properly printed on a new line of printers they were starting to sell. I think you would agree that would be unacceptable. What Nikon is doing is just as foolish, and is truly disrespectful of Nikon users. Hopefully they will come to their senses in time not to make this a wonderful business school case study in how to upset your entire core customer base just at the moment they were starting to feel good again about being Nikon users.

Apr 20, 2005 at 09:29 PM

Quentin
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p.4 #12 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Qranc wrote:
It is like they are trying to say that you can only use their film and their lab with their camera.
....

Comparing encrypted WB in raw data to film/lab/processing is just no where close. .

Sure it is. In fact, its a perfect metaphor.

II don't want Nikon, Canon or anyone else shutting me out of some of the data in my photographs. Its white balance today, but it could be other data tomorrow - or the whole file. It's not reasonable, and it's not acceptable. More importantly, it will cost Nikon in lost customers and lost respect.

Apr 20, 2005 at 10:24 PM

stevenrk
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p.4 #13 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Quentin wrote:
I don't want Nikon, Canon or anyone else shutting me out of some of the data in my photographs. Its white balance today, but it could be other data tomorrow - or the whole file. It's not reasonable, and it's not acceptable. More importantly, it will cost Nikon in lost customers and lost respect.

Well stated.

Does anyone have information about the person/address/telephone number that Nikon owners can use to voice their objections. A kind of "just say yes or we'll say No!" statement.

It's been stated in this thread that Nikon tracks these forums, so maybe they could show themselves and provide us with that information. Several contributors have also spoken of conversations they have had to voice their concerns, and maybe they can let us know who to contact - expecially with the letter, it needs to go somewhere it gets counted instead of lost in a customer representative's out box.

My sense is that Nikon really needs to turn this one around by next week if they want to avoid doing permanent damage to themselves in "lost respect" from what is left of their core user base.

Apr 20, 2005 at 10:49 PM

Glenn01
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p.4 #14 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Apr 20, 2005 at 11:10 PM

Qranc
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p.4 #15 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

If you want to draw analogies, it is much closer to if PS suddenly updating their software to only allow you to save an image as a psd, and that image could only be properly printed on a new line of printers they were starting to sell.

If you want to use this analogy then we must assume PS is the camera and PSD is the raw. You can't do anything with the raw data without PS where as what Nikon has done is far more liberated with their approach. In fact the analogy would equate to Nikon camera will do all the processing for you no ifs ands or buts. Nikon is far more liberated allowing you to use the raw data with 3rd party software (with the only exception being WB) not to mention allowing for output of other files not restricted to the analogy of psd only.

They reserve the right to edit raw data in WB with their own software if you want to process on the PC as opposed to in camera. Adobe wouldn't have to change anything at all or make any sort of printer, the PSD is far more restricted as it is in respect to third party than what Nikon has done with their encryption of WB.

Apr 20, 2005 at 11:13 PM

Qranc
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p.4 #16 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Sure it is. In fact, its a perfect metaphor.

Fine then. What control of White balance did you have in film after the film had been exposed and before it was processed? In the years I had shot film I had never known of such magic.

I don't want Nikon, Canon or anyone else shutting me out of some of the data in my photographs.

In what sense is Nikon shutting you out of your photographs? This is just getting wilder by the hour. The raw data is not your photograph. Raw data is just that, in order for it to be a photograph it needs to be processed and you either use the camera to do that or they will allow you to do that on the computer via software. You really need to revisit what raw data is, the data has basically gone through an a/d converter but hasn't even been interpolated yet!

Lets look at a vector curve. The raw data is just numbers plots. It describes a curve but is not a curve. You need the right software to show you that curve.

More importantly, it will cost Nikon in lost customers and lost respect.

I can't deny this, it could be true, at least the respect part. The customer part I have been hearing for some time now for various reasons just like a doomsday preacher on the street corner. When did u say the end was coming?

Apr 20, 2005 at 11:16 PM

Paul Gardner
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p.4 #17 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Wrong! you need software to write that curve to a memory card in a formated manner, which is discribed by the layout of the format, You could just as easily write the raw to the memory card with no formating. Now you would have to release propritory information on the sensor in order to determine where each piece of sensor data goes.
By writing to a published format you hide the sensor details, but still allow the user to read the data.
No one is asking for the code, all we want is the layout of the formated data.
The database industry went through this BS for awhile until they relaliesed thay were better off giving people the layout.

Apr 20, 2005 at 11:52 PM

Arka
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p.4 #18 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Qranc wrote:
If you want to draw analogies, it is much closer to if PS suddenly updating their software to only allow you to save an image as a psd, and that image could only be properly printed on a new line of printers they were starting to sell.

If you want to use this analogy then we must assume PS is the camera and PSD is the raw. You can't do anything with the raw data without PS where as what Nikon has done is far more liberated with their approach. In fact the analogy would equate to Nikon camera will do all the processing for you no ifs ands or buts. Nikon is far more liberated allowing you to use the raw data with 3rd party software (with the only exception being WB) not to mention allowing for output of other files not restricted to the analogy of psd only.

They reserve the right to edit raw data in WB with their own software if you want to process on the PC as opposed to in camera. Adobe wouldn't have to change anything at all or make any sort of printer, the PSD is far more restricted as it is in respect to third party than what Nikon has done with their encryption of WB.

Apple's preview application can view PSD's, and Corel painter can modify them at whim. Animation master can also use .PSD files as textures for 3D objects, so long as they are not 16 bit. The .PSD is not as limited as one might imagine, and can be easily re-interpreted outside of Adobe apps. Painter support alone represents a huge degree of choice for the artist.

Arka C.

Edited by lordarka on Apr 21, 2005 at 08:09 AM GMT

Apr 21, 2005 at 12:08 AM

stevenrk
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p.4 #19 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/213027

I'm not sure that Nikon monitors THIS forum, so to be sure, dropping them a line is a good idea. It's fine for us to discuss this among ourselves, but doesn't get the message through to those that REALLY matter - the head haunchos at Nikon.

Thanks Glenn.

It would be too bad if they didn't hear. Although you really have to start to wonder if they know exactly what they are doing and have just made a long-term business decision which includes loosing a portion of the digital market they may no longer believe they can win.

Steven

Apr 21, 2005 at 12:09 AM

Qranc
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p.4 #20 · Nikon D2X white balance encryption

Wrong! you need software to write that curve to a memory card in a formated manner, which is discribed by the layout of the format, You could just as easily write the raw to the memory card with no formating.

Fine, I can accept that.

Nikon has already given you their answer and that is you get to edit the WB in raw only with NC and all this BS is fearmongering amongst people that feel everything should be free in a digital world, just in my own opinion that is.

Nikon still allows 3rd party raw editing and the WB can still be edited.

I have failed in drawing an adequate comparison I supose. Fair enough but my point still stands, it's not likened to film processing in terms as has been describe here. In fact, nor are any real parallels to software developers possible because what we are talking about is hardware dependant.

Edited by Qranc on Apr 21, 2005 at 01:00 AM GMT

Apr 21, 2005 at 12:12 AM

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