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Archive 2005 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like...

jeffmock
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p.3 #1 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Burning incense...

I don't think there are going to be new bodies in the near term, they seem to be aiming for a 3-4 year design cycle on the bodies. I think the current rebate on bodies is just semiconductor economics. The price of the CMOS sensor is going to decline maybe 15% a quarter, just like everything else made of CMOS. The marketing guys will disguise this with rebates and price drops, but I think bodies are going to be on a 10-15% price decline per quarter for a long time. It's just like buying Pentiums.

I think lens dispersion at any reasonable f-stop will limit max sensor resolution to ~40Mpixels. I think the next big thing will be characterized lenses with in-camera image processing. A lens might naturally have some barrel distortion or CA that gets corrected in-camera. This will give lens designers more flexibility in making trade-offs in lens designs for 3um pixels.

jeff

Apr 18, 2005 at 06:59 AM

EOS20
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p.3 #2 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

What I would like to see in the next camera would be:

*1.3 or Even Full framed (Doubtful) sensor with 11mp
*Eye control autofocus
*8fps
*A EOS 3 style grip
*Larger viewfinder
*Dust reduction system!!
*A live preview mode like the 20Da and S3 Pro (For awaked compositions)

I doubt that a larger sensor is on the cards but the other things on my wish list could be achived im shure.....

Apr 18, 2005 at 07:29 AM

gmontem
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p.3 #3 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

I hope to see one day:

* Progression towards a more "affordable" full frame camera, perhaps something in between like 1.15 if Canon still wants to milk the 1Ds line.
* ISO 50 and ISO 3200 standard with ISO 25 and ISO 6400 enabled via custom function
* Secondary shutter near the lens mount that closes when the lens is removed, remains open when lens is attached. Great for the prime user who constantly switches lens out in the field... like me.

* Larger LCD screen
* 10fps to match EOS 1V with motor drive
* Active metering on all 45 focus points. Why are we still limited with 9 max?

Apr 18, 2005 at 07:46 AM

eronald
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p.3 #4 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

losloslos wrote:
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"...Stalin? Kruschev?

Anywho...I'm just gonna jump on the 1Ds2, because, its the first digital SLR I've seen that looks like chromes....enough.

G.

the 1Ds2 doesn't look like chromes, it looks like color neg film. The 1Ds can be shot to look like chromes.

Edmund

Apr 18, 2005 at 08:49 AM

robbie20D
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p.3 #5 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

My thoughts on what should happen next

1. I think we should forget about FF it ain't going to happen anythime soon, especially not on p/s cams like someone sugested earlier.

2. I'd like to see all DSLR manufacturers use Adobe Digital Negative is the standard for RAW files. Leica is using it for the module R, if everyone used it it would be like film days just drop it off at the processor and they sort it out. This would also enable manufacturers to devote more time to other aspects of the camera rather than wasting time developing unnecessary software when someone like Adobe can do a much better job.

3. I think the MP wars are just about over, I don't think 20D market cameras will go over 10MP since there is no need, it just wastes space on the PC. Canon would be better off improving the quality (which is bloody good already).

4. Spot metering on non 1 series bodies, not to hard to implement, everyone else does so why don't Canon.

5. I like my 20D it's all the camera I'm going to need for a very long time.

Apr 18, 2005 at 08:50 AM

Dr D
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p.3 #6 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Here's my *uninformed* opinion in regards to the next consumer grade DSLR.

1. No change in megapixels. Nikon, Minolta & Pentax all have 6MP consumer SLR's and looking at the rumours for the D70s and D50 due anytime now, they'll be at the same 6MP mark as the current cameras. So far, the 8MP sensor of Canon is more than enough to "keep ahead" of the competition, at least for another generation.

2. No change in crop. The spanish "3D" interview a few months back talks about killing off the 1.3x sensor and keeping it at either FF or 1.6x crop. The 20D replacement (which won't happen for a while) will be a 1.6x crop. Anything above it will be FF.

3. A new (smaller?) body & a better grip

4. No eye control nor more focus points.

5. Probably a larger buffer

6. The same fps specs

7. A new EFs lens introduced (please let it be a 10mm EFs fisheye)

So essentially, it'll just be a minor upgrade (i.e. D60 -> 10D) to give it just enough features to be the best in its class. Anything more than that is wishful thinking.

Apr 18, 2005 at 09:11 AM

AhrenL
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p.3 #7 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Daniel Buck wrote:
These digital camera seem to be getting so good (Silky smooth ISOs, fast shutter speeds, large image files, near instant auto-focusing, and instant controls) that I kinda wonder when the rapid camera sales are going to stop because maybe Canon has outdone themselves (to a degree..), or maybe after the next slew of cameras it will not be worth the upgrade price because the cameras are so good?

I think what the major camera companies need to do is to bring the prices down, for the most part they all have super features, but are still very very expensive. Back in the day, my Father told me that if you dropped more than $500 down on a camera body, people would call you insane unless you were a working photographer professionaly. I would like to see those numbers return! Heck, I honestly don't know what all canon can "upgrade" to their latest D/DS cameras, aside from maybe more megapixels (though the files sizes are starting to get huge) and *possibly* even better ISO performance (possibly opening up smooth 3200 and 6400?) Honestly, what is left to upgrade?

Yeah, and the most my parents ever spent on a house was $100,000. (4br, 2 1/2 bath). I've been looking for one for the past year and cheapest we can find a 3br 1-1/2ba is 1/2 a mil. I'd be shocked if DSLR prices got much lower. You can pick up a 300D for under $600. Actually there was an article recently about how all the non-DSLR high end digitals were selling horribly because of this.

Apr 18, 2005 at 10:41 AM

J Williams
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p.3 #8 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Ok my $.02. 12-18 months sees merging of 1 series and 20D upgrade which is 1.6x with 10 MP and Adobe RAW. 2 distinct camera lines emerge; FF pro 1 series and all other consumer cameras which will remain 1.6x format.

Some things I would like to see in the future

1) B&W digital camera. They could take a 20D right now and have a killer B&W only camera with incredible resolution at a really affordable cost.

2) Square format camera - 24x24mm. Never having to rtoate the camera again! Could get slightly more effective sensor area than 1.6x cameras! Have chip proces dropped enough that this would be a small premium over the 1.6x camera

??

3) 24x30mm sensor camera. This would effectively be FF cropped done to the most common print sizes. If this could result in a significant cost reduction in the sensor it would be worth it.

4) Hi MP/Lo ISO & Lo MP/Hi ISO cameras. If you were willing to restrict yourself to lo ISO you could probably get quite hi MP coints even on 1.6x camera and if you would reduce MP you could get even higher sensitivities with less noise.

5) View or other type camera for Canons 35mm lenses with lens movements! Not as outlandish as you think.

6) Interchangeable lens rangefinder with whole new lens line.

What I have outlined is basically some of the many ways that DSLRs will become specialized. The next iteration of Canon cameras will see the maturation of the pro series and the consumer series is already basically there with the 20D. Of course they will continue to improve these cameras further, but it will be more evolutionary than revoilutionary. From there Canon will start to create cameras that are more specific to a particular use. This is when digital will get really interesting, because they will have to start thinking outside the box so to speak to create new cameras people want.

Apr 18, 2005 at 12:43 PM

pascal03
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p.3 #9 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

My wishlist would have to include:

Larger & brighter viewfinder
Spot metering
Full frame would be nice
Solid formed grip that does not feel like's it a seperate piece from the camera.
Better battery life
8fps instead of the 5fps, but can live with the 5fps
Weather sealed like the 1 series so I don't have to rush for cover when it starts raining
Happy with the 8Mp of the 20D, but 11Mp would be perfect as it would get as close to 35mm as I could care to be

And now that I've described a 1D MkII, I would like it for around $1599.

I doubt if canon is going to upgrade their camera's that frequently as the trend has been a new model every two years. However, I wish they would follow in the footsteps of Nikon's "F" series and provide a mind-blowing earth-shattering "F" body once every 10 years. Take their time, do their homework and provide a product that outlives it's competition for a decade. This would give them the edge and would make consumers happy knowing that their $1500 camera is going to be work 1/4 of the price they paid for it in 2 years.

Apr 18, 2005 at 07:18 PM

Canon 10D
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p.3 #10 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

zonkola wrote:
Some people here believe that the current rebates on the 20D and 1DmkII are an indication that Canon will be announcing a DSLR that would somehow appeal to both 20D and 1DmkII fans.

Realistically, what would you like this camera to be?

I would like a combo of the 1Ds MKII and 1D MKII.
Not sure whether there will be an upgrade for the 1D MKII this fall; but, there are definitely some new cameras from Canon coming this fall or sooner, and Canon is going to kick some butts again because Nikon just announced two new entry-level digital SLR cameras for the end of April

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05040802nikondslrs.asp

Apr 18, 2005 at 07:35 PM

Doug C
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p.3 #11 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

I'd like a eye control focus, solid grip, a little more resolution, and 1.3 crop like most others. But let me throw something out that no one else has brought up. How about the ability to override the IR filter, so IR shots are again possible with normal exposure times?

Apr 18, 2005 at 09:58 PM

Philippe Arnez
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p.3 #12 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

jeffmock wrote:
Burning incense...

I don't think there are going to be new bodies in the near term, they seem to be aiming for a 3-4 year design cycle on the bodies. [...]

Looks more like 2-3 years to me in the 1-Series bodies and even shorter intervals in the 20D catergory. Little summary of the release dates (from the camera museum)

Oct. 2000 - D30
Mar. 2002 - D60
Mar. 2003 - 10D
Sep. 2004 - 20D

Dec. 2001 - 1D
Nov. 2002 - 1Ds
Apr. 2004 - 1DII
Nov. 2004 - 1DsII

Edited by Philippe Arnez on Apr 19, 2005 at 07:25 PM GMT (Reason: Date of 1Ds corrected)

Apr 18, 2005 at 09:59 PM

jeffmock
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p.3 #13 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Philippe Arnez wrote:
Looks more like 2-3 years to me in the 1-Series bodies and even shorter intervals in the 20D catergory. Little summary of the release dates (from the camera museum)

Oct. 2000 - D30
Mar. 2002 - D60
Mar. 2003 - 10D
Sep. 2004 - 20D

Dec. 2001 - 1D
Feb. 2002 - 1Ds
Apr. 2004 - 1DII
Nov. 2004 - 1DsII

Hmm, I thought the 10D was older than that. The 18 months from the 10D to the 20D is the most telling to me. That would suggest 03/06 for the 20D replacement. That's a bit too soon for a $1500 full-frame camera, so it looks like the 20D follow-on will be another 1.6 crop. Hmph.

jeff

Apr 18, 2005 at 10:19 PM

AJSJones
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p.3 #14 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

In a word : In-camera HDR*.

Canon has a patent describing how dynamic range expansion could be done on-chip but whether they are close to having it ready for demo is (still) anyone's guess!!

Adding another couple of stops' worth of range in the sensor would be "quite nice", and, for me for landscapes, it could be at the expense of fps or ISO range.

Andy

*If you've read the PS CS2 flyer from e.g. Martin Evening and others, 32-bits per channel (yes, per channel) processing is available in CS2 and will be in "more digital cameras .. in the not too distant future.." You will be able to create one humongous file from a bunch of bracketed shots (shot separately) and then convert to 8 or 16 bits per channel to compress the image's whole dynamic range into something presentable on screen or on paper - blending "easily" and controllably implemented.

Apr 18, 2005 at 11:50 PM

Theresa Z.
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p.3 #15 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Guys, I'm not one to push newer and better, because it's not the tool that takes good photographs, it's the photographer. But I can tell you that the 20D is one heck of a lot better tool than the 10D. I've had them all, since the D30 and this one is special the way the D30 was. The D60 and 10D were very marginal improvements (especially the 10D) over their predecessors (and in some cases not as good), but the 20D, wow. It's like a different class. And it's not the number of pixels. I also have a 1DS and will not be selling the 20D unless there's a real big leap in function/features.

Theresa

zonkola wrote:
JeffBowser wrote:
I'm hanging onto my 10D until the 20D replacement comes out at least. Every other, or even every 3rd generation is as fast as I am willing to upgrade. Upgrades for the sake of upgrading is a losing proposition.

I'm shooting on a 10D for exactly the same reason.

Apr 19, 2005 at 01:31 AM

Hersch
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p.3 #16 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Both Mamiya and Hasselblad now have 22 megapixel cameras. The Hasselblad is pretty big and bulky and will probably only be useful in the studios but Mamiyas ZD as I understand it will accept all the 645 lenses and will handle like a DSLR. At 22 mp this may have some influence on a future Canon Camera. There are quite a few photographers out there with 645 lens that I am sure will be interested in this model. Estimated price is between $10 and $15,000.00 so it won't be for everyone.

Grant

Apr 19, 2005 at 03:23 AM

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p.3 #17 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Philippe Arnez wrote:

Looks more like 2-3 years to me in the 1-Series bodies and even shorter intervals in the 20D catergory. Little summary of the release dates (from the camera museum)

Oct. 2000 - D30
Mar. 2002 - D60
Mar. 2003 - 10D
Sep. 2004 - 20D

Dec. 2001 - 1D
Feb. 2002 - 1Ds
Apr. 2004 - 1DII
Nov. 2004 - 1DsII

The 1Ds was out in late Nov. 2002. It was announced around September 2002 (PK).

EB

Apr 19, 2005 at 04:27 AM

joezasada
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p.3 #18 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

One thing is that now that Canon has perfected the CMOS sensor you will always see the best "version" of it come out in a 1-series body before a 10 series.

the 1D was the exception because even though canon had the CMOS for the d30 it was still kind of primitive then - the 1Ds is what fixed that.

I think the two year interval on 1-series cameras will stick because the pros want tangible new featuers to justify an upgrade - the MKIIs are significant upgrades over the MKIs.

the 10D was something of an anomaly - only one year after the D60 - but that shows as the 10D has only minor improvements over the D60. the 10D was prompted as a lower-cost-to-produce camera over the D60 so that Canon could stay compeitive against competitor (ie NIKON) pricing (in the dSLR market you have to stay on top or be dead... look at pentax, olympus, minolta, fuji, kodak - they're all in the dSLR market now but because it took them so long they've fallen way way behind!)

unless a competitor does something serious to attack the 20D it will be the flagship non-1-series camera (I would not call it "consumer" or "prosumer" - it's a budget-grade "pro" camera - why? because your average consumer wouldn't be interested in purchasing one) until after the next 1 series comes out with significant nicer and better features.

what will the next series of camera have?

(educated guesses)

-the 1DmkIII will have more than 12 megapixels - to smoke the D2X - and a faster than 8.5 fps - and may or may not do the full-frame thing.
-the 1DmkIII will have more than 22 megapixels - to smoke the Mamiya ZD or whatever else comes along - and will still be full-frame
-the next 10 series will be a "lite" version of the 1DmkIII.

EF-S will stick around because the DoF on an APS-C camera is suffiecient to get good bokeh even with cheap lenses. I would not be surprised to see a 1-series with EF-S... although if that happened Canon would release an "L" Lens in EF-S with a really wide angle to compensate for that. Canon will be releasing more and more EF-S lenses over the next few years for 20D's and Rebel XT's.

Full-frame is only really needed for wide angle but the 10-22 solves that. a brighter L version would not be a major feat for Canon to put out. In the film days you only ever went with less than 16 if you wanted a fisheye...

As for dynamic range, the technology on the CMOS chips is so good that physical size won't make much of a difference nowadays. I do see RAW file technology improving to the point of keeping bracketed shots in the file info so your final images would have super range on them. I also see in-camera processing becoming smart enough to automatically bracket a shot and produce a combined RAW or JPEG file on it's own. I also see even less noise at high ISO levels - the 20D is a vast improvement over the 10D - now the 1600 and 3200 ISO modes are fully usable on the 20D wheras on the 10D they were more of a last resort option.

As the cameras get higher res the lenses will have to get better (and they will cost just as much as the do now for good L glass!)

I find that with technology that devices get better - even way better - but prices only drop slightly.

One thing is for certain - the futuer for dSLRs looks very bright indeed.

Apr 19, 2005 at 05:01 AM

roblumba
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p.3 #19 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Do a search on previous threads. I'm sure there is one almost identical to this one, but they were talking about the camera after the 1D and 10D.

I also agree that it's too soon. Probably at least another 12 months before another pro body comes out. I think they already milked the technology they created in this round to create the set of cameras you see today.

Apr 19, 2005 at 05:02 AM

RDKirk
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p.3 #20 · Possible new Canon DSLR in the fall - What would you like to see?

Rebates aren't genuine price decreases. They're a marketing gimmick that doesn't reflect any change in the actual wholesale price.

Rebate offers spur sales, but in fact, such a small percentage is actually redemed that most rebate offers are handled by insurance companies. The manufacturer/dealer pays a premium to an insurance company, and the insurance company makes the payout to the customers who actually submit a proper redemption form. The manufacturer gets more sales, the insurance company gets paid a premium, and doesn't make too much of a payout to customers.

A rebate is no indication of anything going on on the production side.

Apr 19, 2005 at 01:12 PM

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