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First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action
  
 
uhoh7
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Phillip Reeve wrote:
Well Bastian published his shorter review of the FLE 1.4/35 on the a7rii a few days ago and both the CV35 and ZM35 outperform it any any category but size and handling: Weak flare resistance, a bit harsher bokeh with some onion, lower sharpness, a bit stronger vignetting, more CA, less defined sunstars, more distortion and focus shift. The sharpness part has certainly to do with the filter stack but also on the UT mod the ZM and VC are much stronger performers at wider apertures as Derek has demonstrated.



Neither lens was available when the A7 first appeared, which is when I was really looking closely, and why I used the past tense and "memory serves", but I should have been more clear. I have no doubt both the CV 35/1.7 and ZM 35/1.4 are better than FLE with stock cameras. I admire the testing you have been doing on your site

In the fall of 2013 the FLE was still worth a small fortune, but there were some very nice samples made with it and posted on flickr which showed nice edges and even sharpness, but they must have been stopped down, or with subjects which matched the FC.

This could be me, in my quest for proper M performance on Sony :


DSC01196 by unoh7, A7.UT M-Rokkor 40/2

Another shoot with v2, UT and M9 all in use. The UT WB alternated from superior to "out there" What I am beginning to love about it is how it seems to render skin, apart from color. I never saw the Rokkor or TE 90 thin look quite like this


DSC01385 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC01358 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC01176 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC01380 by unoh7, on Flickr

The UT A7 raws behave very differently in LR for me. Very high sensitivity to some sliders, and sometimes the .5 jumps seem huge. I must type in the increments at times. Then I will find myself pulling down the saturation or luminance of various colors way down after my edits for brightness and shadows. What is increasingly apparent is the files are responsive and come up with all sorts of looks I never saw before . BW is very good.

But in this shoot again, I would see AWB suddenly go very hot when shot in a particular direction. Reflection? I don't know but, variability is greater than stock or V2, with the test UT I have.



Mar 19, 2017 at 05:38 PM
uhoh7
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


PS I was looking at the "hot" shots from the UT. At AWB they almost all were coming in with temps higher than the more normal looking shots, and in most simply bringing the temp down from say 5500 to 4200, gave a similar look. Still I had a few outliers, which seem to have grabbed something besides just a hotter temp.

Here is an example:

AWB comes in at 5k:

DSC01375-3 by unoh7, on Flickr

Simply bringing that down still left a "washed" look, but really blue. It was responsive to editing, though I could not fully recover it to what the same lens was doing in the last post. The last shot in the previous thread is nice, for me, though I would desaturate a bit further on review.

I stopped here with this one.:

DSC01375-2 by unoh7, on Flickr

The M9 was not making shots to my taste here either. Here it with a similar angle. These were coming in OOC at 4200. They seemed to have the same range of tonal variety as the "normal" UT shots, though less saturated, and with a somewhat different mix.

This has some editing, so should be compared to second UT shot, though it was nothing like the first UT shot unedited.


L1058181 by unoh7, M9 with 28 cron.

Now another variable is speed and the 28 cron is stopped down, while the 90 TE, which is famous for flare, is near WO, where it also has low contrast. If you look at the last TE shot in the previous post, though, it's clear something "happened". Flare of some sort could explain that. The lens cannot be used without a serious hood and is WAY more strange with flaring than any 90 or 100 I have.

The magenta in her jacket is really different. Next time I will use the 90 Summarit which does not change like the TE at faster apertures and has no where near the weird antics of the TE with the sun.

In short during this shoot the UT gave me some of my best shots and also my worst.



Mar 19, 2017 at 09:22 PM
uhoh7
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Of course what we really need to know: how is the UT at 700mm?

Today I saw some elk on the river as I was driving near my house. Took a snap with the lowly 135/3.5 Telyt APO:


UT_Leica135APO by unoh7, on Flickr

Overcast....but lets try Nikkor 500/4P with 1.4x, focus on the geese:


UT_500P1.4xWO by unoh7, not a crop



Mar 19, 2017 at 10:12 PM
realVivek
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Charlie, Have you tried shooting in IR with the UT variant? Looks like (from wild variations in WB) it would work for near IR.


Mar 20, 2017 at 04:54 AM
mdemeyer
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I find the AWB in the A7 to be somehow sensitive to aperture, for reasons I can not come up with a theory for. This is true unmodified and with the v1,2, and 3 thin filter mods. Any ideas why?

Also, after a better technical brief from Ilija at Kolari I will have a camera switched to the UT mod and share some comparisons.

Michael

uhoh7 wrote:
PS I was looking at the "hot" shots from the UT. At AWB they almost all were coming in with temps higher than the more normal looking shots, and in most simply bringing the temp down from say 5500 to 4200, gave a similar look. Still I had a few outliers, which seem to have grabbed something besides just a hotter temp.

Here is an example:

AWB comes in at 5k:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3842/33377990872_68658bc781_b.jpg
DSC01375-3 by unoh7, on Flickr

Simply bringing that down still left a "washed" look, but really blue. It was responsive to editing, though I could not fully recover it to what the same
...Show more


Edited on Mar 20, 2017 at 02:37 PM · View previous versions



Mar 20, 2017 at 06:18 AM
sebboh
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


i tried to test charlie's theory on slr wides improving with the thin filter today on the only suitable lens i had lying around. not sure that i see an obvious conclusion from these... caveat is the lens has a floating element and i have to use different adapters for each camera.

rokkor plain MD 24/2.8:





full sized



Mar 20, 2017 at 07:31 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
i tried to test charlie's theory on slr wides improving with the thin filter today on the only suitable lens i had lying around. not sure that i see an obvious conclusion from these... caveat is the lens has a floating element and i have to use different adapters for each camera.

rokkor plain MD 24/2.8:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3759/33417056531_c24aa2b41d_o.jpg
full sized


I don't see a difference here and I thought we might. If you still have your 58 f/1.2 Rokkor I would be very interested to see if the thin filter mod improves its performance wide open even in the centre. I believe it should. If you get a chance to do that test it would be very interesting to see.



Mar 20, 2017 at 08:25 AM
hiepphotog
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
i tried to test charlie's theory on slr wides improving with the thin filter today on the only suitable lens i had lying around. not sure that i see an obvious conclusion from these... caveat is the lens has a floating element and i have to use different adapters for each camera.

rokkor plain MD 24/2.8:
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3759/33417056531_c24aa2b41d_o.jpg
full sized


From my limited test with old SLR lenses, I found similar result. True that a floating element might affect the sharpness, but the effect is quite minor. It could just be that f/2.8 is too slow to see it . I highly doubt the result would be different with lenses like Sigma 20/1.4 and 24/1.4. It would be nice to see that, but I think you don't have them.
---------------------------------------------

Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't see a difference here and I thought we might. If you still have your 58 f/1.2 Rokkor I would be very interested to see if the thin filter mod improves its performance wide open even in the centre. I believe it should. If you get a chance to do that test it would be very interesting to see.


On the contrary, I doubt you would see much improvement with the 58, especially in the center. My old test with the Jahre 55 showed slight improvement off-center. It's interesting to see if there is less PF.



Mar 20, 2017 at 11:07 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


hiepphotog wrote:
From my limited test with old SLR lenses, I found similar result. True that a floating element might affect the sharpness, but the effect is quite minor. It could just be that f/2.8 is too slow to see it . I highly doubt the result would be different with lenses like Sigma 20/1.4 and 24/1.4. It would be nice to see that, but I think you don't have them.
---------------------------------------------

On the contrary, I doubt you would see much improvement with the 58, especially in the center. My old test with the Jahre 55 showed slight improvement off-center. It's interesting to see
...Show more

That is why I would love to see tests with such a thin filter The last lens rentals blog post on the thin filter stack argued that there was a negative effect of a thicker filter even in the centre on very fast lenses and even 1mm extra but especially 2mm could have a strong effect on f/1.2 lenses in microcontrast when shot wide open. I know my impression is that my Rokkor 58 f/1.2 was a bit worse on my Sony A7 II wide open than on my 5D MKII that I had previously, but I could have been wrong. So, if Derek still has the lens, which I think he does, then I would love to see the test.



Mar 20, 2017 at 01:01 PM
artur5
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Do we know for a fact that Canon DSLRs have a thinner sensor stack than Sony A7 series ?.. If not, there's no reason why a Rokkor 58 should perform better on your Canon 5DII, given that both cameras have similar Mpix count.
When ( if ) I send my A7II to Kolari for the UT mod, one of the things I'm really interested to test is if the performances of my current Canon EF lenses are visibly worse on a moded A7II than on the stock camera. I assume ( might be wrong) that Canon/NIkon have been releasing, already for a number of years, all their new glass optimized for digital sensors and not for film. Even taking into account the long exit pupil distance of SLR glass, the corner sharpness of a modern EF lens should be a bit worse with a Sony-Kolari camera.



Mar 20, 2017 at 03:30 PM
 

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hiepphotog
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


artur5 wrote:
Do we know for a fact that Canon DSLRs have a thinner sensor stack than Sony A7 series ?.. If not, there's no reason why a Rokkor 58 should perform better on your Canon 5DII, given that both cameras have similar Mpix count.
When ( if ) I send my A7II to Kolari for the UT mod, one of the things I'm really interested to test is if the performances of my current Canon EF lenses are visibly worse on a moded A7II than on the stock camera. I assume ( might be wrong) that Canon/NIkon have been releasing, already
...Show more

It's really all over the place with Canikon from what I have seen on Lensrental and elsewhere. Some of the more modern Canikon lenses actually like 2mm better. Most of the time, they're quite insensitive to the thickness difference. Some of the users' A-B comparisons I have seen (most notably the Canon 16-35 II), there are actually some visible degradation. So I don't think it can be generalized.

IMO, if the lens was really optimized for corner sharpness (especially at close to WO), they would have to design the lens with whatever optical refractive index distortion in front of the capturing plane (mainly for digital). These designs would be more sensitive to the thickness.



Mar 20, 2017 at 04:03 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


artur5 wrote:
Do we know for a fact that Canon DSLRs have a thinner sensor stack than Sony A7 series ?.. If not, there's no reason why a Rokkor 58 should perform better on your Canon 5DII, given that both cameras have similar Mpix count.
When ( if ) I send my A7II to Kolari for the UT mod, one of the things I'm really interested to test is if the performances of my current Canon EF lenses are visibly worse on a moded A7II than on the stock camera. I assume ( might be wrong) that Canon/NIkon have been releasing, already
...Show more

It is very hard to know the exact filter stack thickness for any camera. What I think we have learned is that there are different ways to arrange the filter stack. Sony seems t have in effect three pieces of glass. An IR deducing piece, a low pass filter, and a plain piece of glass directly over the sensor. The ultra thin mod replaces the first two with a single piece just .2mm thick. How does Canon set things up? I don't know. They make their own sensors, so maybe they put the plain glass over the sensor too, maybe they don't. Maybe it isn't plain glass but an IR reducing piece. Canon does typically have a low pass filter. Is this separate? I don't know these things. I do know my Rokkor seemed to do a bit better wide open (and only wide open) on my Canon 5D MII than on my Sony A7 II. I could just be wrong about that or perhaps something else about the Canon setup was better. Anyway, I would love to see the comparison if Derek has time and the still has the lens.



Mar 20, 2017 at 05:16 PM
sebboh
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Steve Spencer wrote:
It is very hard to know the exact filter stack thickness for any camera. What I think we have learned is that there are different ways to arrange the filter stack. Sony seems t have in effect three pieces of glass. An IR deducing piece, a low pass filter, and a plain piece of glass directly over the sensor. The ultra thin mod replaces the first two with a single piece just .2mm thick. How does Canon set things up? I don't know. They make their own sensors, so maybe they put the plain glass over the sensor too,
...Show more

i'm not parting with my rokkor any time soon. i can probably compare it with the pentax 50/1.2 and canon FL 55/1.2 on stock and kolari when i get time (probably not till april ). where do you see the difference wide open on the rokkor between sony and canon? in the corners, across the frame? is it less SA/more contrast or what?




Mar 20, 2017 at 05:44 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
i'm not parting with my rokkor any time soon. i can probably compare it with the pentax 50/1.2 and canon FL 55/1.2 on stock and kolari when i get time (probably not till april ). where do you see the difference wide open on the rokkor between sony and canon? in the corners, across the frame? is it less SA/more contrast or what?



Hi Derek,

I saw the difference across the frame, but noticed it most in the centre. What I would say is the images on the Canon just had a bit more "bite." So, I guess a bit more microcontrast (even though it isn't that high on the Canon; it was just very low on the A7 II) or perhaps a bit less SA, or maybe it was the adapter and flare issues, which is what I thought initially even though I had a good flocked adapter. It would be cool to test all three f/1.2 lenses and if that last blog from lens rentals is right all of them should do better on the ultra thin Kolari modified A7 than on a stock A7. Did you notice anything with your Oly Pen 42 f/1.2? Given that you shoot a couple f/1.2 lenses fairly often, it might be an important advantage of the UT mod.



Mar 21, 2017 at 12:35 PM
sebboh
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Steve Spencer wrote:
Hi Derek,

I saw the difference across the frame, but noticed it most in the centre. What I would say is the images on the Canon just had a bit more "bite." So, I guess a bit more microcontrast (even though it isn't that high on the Canon; it was just very low on the A7 II) or perhaps a bit less SA, or maybe it was the adapter and flare issues, which is what I thought initially even though I had a good flocked adapter. It would be cool to test all three f/1.2 lenses and if that last
...Show more

there is definitely more micro contrast and definition across the frame with the pen 42/1.2:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1465200/10#13962244

not sure how much of the contrast difference in the center is due to the lack of an AA filter and how much is due to the thinner stack. i would say that all my super fast lenses seem to have a little less SA wide open (you can see it in the zm shots too), but i haven't done an a/b comparison that shows it well yet.

some of the difference you're seeing might be due to differences in dynamic range and tone curves between canon and sony too. files from the m9 seem look a lot more contrasty than the a7.UT but they don't have any more detail or microcontrast when i normalize global contrast across shots.



Mar 21, 2017 at 04:05 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
there is definitely more micro contrast and definition across the frame with the pen 42/1.2:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1465200/10#13962244

not sure how much of the contrast difference in the center is due to the lack of an AA filter and how much is due to the thinner stack. i would say that all my super fast lenses seem to have a little less SA wide open (you can see it in the zm shots too), but i haven't done an a/b comparison that shows it well yet.

some of the difference you're seeing might be due to differences in dynamic range and tone curves between canon
...Show more

The difference in the AA filter between the two cameras does make it difficult to know what is caused by the thicker sensor stack and what is caused by the AA filter, but I think your examples are consistent with what is argued in the lens rental blog. The difference in micro contrast is greatest at f/1.2, less at f/1.4, and much smaller at f/2. The remaining difference at f/2 would be what the AA filter gets you, but the differences at wider apertures (even in the centre) are likely due to the thicker filter stack. If the same pattern holds for several f/1.2 lenses, then that would seem to be some pretty good evidence for the idea put forward in that blog. Even if one is not convinced by that evidence, the practical point becomes pretty clear--if you want to shoot f/1.2 lenses designed for film you are considerably better off with the Ultra Thin (UT) mod.



Mar 21, 2017 at 09:02 PM
hiepphotog
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Steve Spencer wrote:
The difference in the AA filter between the two cameras does make it difficult to know what is caused by the thicker sensor stack and what is caused by the AA filter, but I think your examples are consistent with what is argued in the lens rental blog. The difference in micro contrast is greatest at f/1.2, less at f/1.4, and much smaller at f/2. The remaining difference at f/2 would be what the AA filter gets you, but the differences at wider apertures (even in the centre) are likely due to the thicker filter stack. If the same
...Show more

Steve, may you provide the Lensrerntal link to what you're saying? From what I remember, the thicker stack actually induces higher resolution (though minimal ) in the center with MTF measurement. This is something I don't expect. Thank you.



Mar 22, 2017 at 12:37 AM
MAubrey
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


hiepphotog wrote:
Steve, may you provide the Lensrerntal link to what you're saying? From what I remember, the thicker stack actually induces higher resolution (though minimal ) in the center with MTF measurement. This is something I don't expect. Thank you.

Here's the post in question: the effect of the sensor stack is as much affected by relative aperture as it is by the thickness of the stack (relative to the stack that lens was designed for):
https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/07/sensor-stack-thickness-part-iii-the-summary/

Other posts:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/the-glass-in-the-path-sensor-stacks-and-adapted-lenses/



Mar 22, 2017 at 04:38 AM
sebboh
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


ok, so there is definitely some improvement. it's more noticeable in the midzones, but it's there in the center too. it may also effect focus shift (i did not refocus on stopping down for this test). here's the rokkor 58/1.2 and canon FL 55/1.2 (my pentax adapter won't reach infinity on the stock a7, so no pentax 50/1.2 in the infinity comparison ):





full size comparison here.




Mar 22, 2017 at 05:09 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
ok, so there is definitely some improvement. it's more noticeable in the midzones, but it's there in the center too. it may also effect focus shift (i did not refocus on stopping down for this test). here's the rokkor 58/1.2 and canon FL 55/1.2 (my pentax adapter won't reach infinity on the stock a7, so no pentax 50/1.2 in the infinity comparison ):
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2885/33541832086_6477feaef3_o.jpg
full size comparison here.



The wide open microcontrast to my eyes looks like a pretty big difference even in the centre. Sol it looks to me like the lens rentals blog definitely had a point and the ultra thin mod will be nice improvement for wide open shooting with these very fast film lenses.



Mar 22, 2017 at 11:53 AM
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