Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

  

Archive 2016 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125

  
 
saintiwari
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Is it even possible?
I have been made an offer, a distress sale of 5Dsr at 65% of the original price. The owner wants to get rid of it.
I went thru' dpreview's indepth review of it and the page on shutter shock/mirror slap vibration makes a big deal about it...so much so that they say its impossible to shoot at 1/20 to 1/125 or even more without getting soft pictures, unless you shoot live view or deploy shutter delay/mirror lock up. Even mirror lock up or shutter delay are not 100% rewarding.

I shoot with a casual attitude, focus on framing and not think about technical stuff neither want to get sucked into a cautious approach. I have shot this way with 5D II and lesser cameras and i didn't have any problems of this kind. (I do travel photography and not studio stuff, i travel 9 months a year).

These shutter speeds are very common in day to day shooting...evenings, one is shooting at 1/60 or so all the time.

I want someone from you to put things in perspective. Is this problem unique to this camera? Is it made out to look bigger than it is? Dies this happen with all lenses or just teles? (I use 50 and 85 the most, sometimes 24 and 35 also).

Is it possible to shoot this camera at those shutter speeds handheld?

Pls advice.
Thanks
St



Jan 09, 2016 at 03:14 AM
johnctharp
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Nikon shooters with the D800 went through the same adjustment- so, three things:

1. Note that many times you won't be shooting a lens at an aperture that could actually be resolved to 50MP. This is changing with better glass, but it's still a reality- you're only going to get the full benefit of such a high resolution sensor if you shoot for it.
2. Stabilized lenses. Yes, that means giving up the fastest lenses, but lenses such as Canon's stabilized primes, Tamron's new 45/1.8 VC, and Canon's 70-200/2.8L II for 85mm can get you the acuity you're looking for at wider apertures and slower shutter speeds.
3. If all else fails, you won't have a shot that's sharp at 100% viewing, *but* you will have a shot that's at least as sharp as say your 5D II would be at the same settings, and that's okay!



Jan 09, 2016 at 03:47 AM
Roland W
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


The extra resolution of the 5DS and 5DSR cameras need a bit more steadiness of support for the very sharpest photo, but the extra amount needed is not much. Using a faster shutter speed of one half to one extra stop should in theory cover what is needed, so you really should not worry much about that. Good hand holding technique will be important, so work a bit on that. And as mentioned, an image stabilized lens will help too. And as mentioned, if you are really pressed for shutter speed, just think of it as a 5D2 and you will get results that are the same as what you are used to.

I have been very happy with my 5DSR, and use it much of the time for both hand held situations and on a tripod, in place of my trusty 5D3. The only slight drawback to the 5DS camera is they fill cards twice as fast, but cards really are pretty cheap.



Jan 09, 2016 at 05:09 AM
rdcny
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Namaskar!

Yes great camera - get it. attached are two images from Mumbai harbor area - both with the 5Ds and the 16-35 F4...shot at about 1/500 sec and ISO 400...F8





Young Women Mumbai, India - 18 December 2015







Black-headed Gulls, Mumbai - 18 December 2015




Jan 09, 2016 at 07:06 AM
Scott Stoness
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


As a landscape (tripod) focussed guy at 65% off I would jump. [woops -- - 35% but I would still jump]

Its not unique to the camera, its a function of high resolution requiring faster shutter speed or more stability or IS to achieve maximum resolution. If you shooting with an is lens it won't be as bad. But if you are pixel peeping - you may not like it as much even though it has as much sharpness blown up the same size as you 5diii.

However, there are other reasons that the 5diii is better or worse than the 5dsr. There is a long lag between shooting and seeing the histogram in 5dsr. Battery life is not as long as 5diii. The burst capability of 5dii is longer. fps is higher on 5diii. The 5dsr has a bulb timer. The 5dsr has delay to from mirror lockup.

Edited on Jan 09, 2016 at 04:27 PM · View previous versions



Jan 09, 2016 at 03:35 PM
Abbott Schindl
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Scott: You added an "f" to the original post: the price is 65% OF original, not OFF the original. Still a good deal, I just didn't want the thread to get bogged down with super-unreal pricing.

As for the 5DSR, I've not had problems shooting at 1/125 and a little slower using IS in my various Canon f/4 zooms. I've been satisfied with ISO 1600 and higher in a pinch, which makes these relatively slow shutter speeds possible in low light. The OP expressed concern about shutter speed, but it's important to understand the camera's noise characteristics and how they fit with your view of "good image".

Next, I've found that Canon's newest lenses that I have (16-35 f/4L and 100-400 (II)) are noticeably sharper than most of my older lenses such as the 24-105L, 70-200 f/4L IS, 135 f/2L, and even the 100L macro IS. But that doesn't mean that the images these older lenses produce are soft: they're just not as sharp as newer lenses. So: what's your criterion for "sharp"? I rarely print larger than 17x22, and these images are sharp at that size when viewed from a reasonable distance of a couple of feet or more. Similarly, images from all of my lenses except the 50 f/1.4 look sharp on my monitor until I go to 100% magnification, at which time I sometimes am disappointed. Everything's relative.

When I compare the 5DSR's 50 mpxl images with my 1D4's 16 mpxl at similar magnification (i.e. details in images from both cameras are scaled to be the same size on my 27" monitor), the 5DSR's "soft" images are still at least as sharp as my 1D4's "really sharp" ones. So, what's "sharp" to you?

I think we sometimes get carried away and judge "sharp" as "sharp when viewed at 100%", and naturally that criterion gets harder to achieve as sensor resolution increases. For example, I had to improve my support technique when I went from an EOS 20D (8 mpxl) to the 1DIII (10 mpxl), and then a big steadiness improvement moving to the 1DIV, and now another technique improvement for the 5DSR.

I also find it interesting that I read so much about "only the lenses on Canon's list will give sharp images with the 5DSR" (I find this false, but it's a nice guideline and good marketing), and "you've got to work extra hard to steady the 5DSR" (true, but I still generally get sharper images with the 5DSR than with my other cameras), "you need to keep the ISO low to get the best images" (also true, as it is of any camera) and so on.

What's interesting is that I see very little similar discussion about the 7D2, which has almost the same sensor resolution, same DIGIC back-end, apparently a slightly lower build quality (examples: tripod mount, mirror damping mechanism—they're still very good) than the 5DSR and so on. I guess I need some enlightenment here...



Jan 09, 2016 at 04:08 PM
johnctharp
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Abbott Schindl wrote:
What's interesting is that I see very little similar discussion about the 7D2, which has almost the same sensor resolution, same DIGIC back-end, apparently a slightly lower build quality (examples: tripod mount, mirror damping mechanism—they're still very good) than the 5DSR and so on. I guess I need some enlightenment here...


When people realize that crop factor adjustments to 1/f are really just adjustments due to pixel size, then it should all start to make sense .



Jan 09, 2016 at 04:16 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


A higher photo site density sensor has no negative effect whatsoever on your ability to hand hold the camera and get good photographs. If you like to make 12 x 18 prints and you could shoot handheld and get sufficient quality for that from a 8MP camera, you can handhold a 50MP camera and get exactly the same result in the same print size.

There is a potential advantage to the higher MP sensor in that if you can stabilize the camera sufficiently (and deal with a range of other issues that become more critical as you make larger prints) you may be able to get more image resolution.

There is a bunch of silliness floating around in forums about this "issue."

Dan

saintiwari wrote:
Is it even possible?
I have been made an offer, a distress sale of 5Dsr at 65% of the original price. The owner wants to get rid of it.
I went thru' dpreview's indepth review of it and the page on shutter shock/mirror slap vibration makes a big deal about it...so much so that they say its impossible to shoot at 1/20 to 1/125 or even more without getting soft pictures, unless you shoot live view or deploy shutter delay/mirror lock up. Even mirror lock up or shutter delay are not 100% rewarding.

I shoot with a casual attitude, focus on framing and
...Show more



Jan 09, 2016 at 04:25 PM
stanj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Of course depends on what you define as "sharp", but I have found that not to be a big problem - not much bigger than with the 5D3 anyway.



























Jan 09, 2016 at 04:42 PM
wallstreetonei
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


I own 2 5DSRs.

I use the following lenses on the camera:
IS lenses
- 35F2 IS Canon
- 24-105 F4 OS Sigma
- 70-200 F2.8 II IS Canon
- 100-400L II IS Canon

non IS
- Canon 35L II

If you are shooting IS lenses you can shoot easily at 1/FL

If you are using non-IS lenses you need to be at 1/4xFL




Jan 09, 2016 at 06:23 PM
saintiwari
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Thanks guys. Appropriate your feedback.


Jan 10, 2016 at 12:53 AM
zlatko
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Abbott Schindl wrote:
What's interesting is that I see very little similar discussion about the 7D2, which has almost the same sensor resolution, same DIGIC back-end, apparently a slightly lower build quality (examples: tripod mount, mirror damping mechanism—they're still very good) than the 5DSR and so on. I guess I need some enlightenment here...


I'll give it a shot. Cameras with more resolution don't need more support. They don't need to be held any steadier than lower resolution cameras. There is myth about this that gets repeated in photo forums, but it's not true, at least the way it's explained.

If people stop to think about it, they'll realize that a camera is held with the same steadiness, regardless of its resolution. This means that the same degree of blur reaches the sensor. The difference that people perceive as greater blur with higher-res cameras is not greater blur. Rather, it's greater magnification. They aren't viewing a higher-res file at the same image size, but often at double or more the image size of the lower res camera.

Whether one is shooting a 5DSR, a 7D2 or even the original 4mp 1D, the degree of blur from camera shake is the same. The difference is whether the 100% image when viewed on screen represents something like an 8-foot image, a 5-foot image or a 2-foot image. With the 8-foot image, you naturally see a few more pixels of blur than you do with a 5-foot or 2-foot image. And whether that blur is relevant depends on whether one is printing at really large sizes. In reality, those images would have different viewing distances, causing the blur to look the same.

Some fashion photographers used to shoot the massive Mamiya 67RZ handheld. Its bigger format created negatives with much more resolution than 35mm. But their photos weren't blurrier by virtue of the larger format. The degree of blur from shooting hand-held was not increased by the greater resolution. If their photos were ever blurry due to shutter speed/hand-holding, they would have been just as blurry with a smaller format too.

The resolution of the camera has no impact on the degree of actual blur, but magnification changes the degree of perceived blur. So the bottom line is that shooting for a larger print does require a steadier camera, regardless of the camera's resolution. Put a different way, if you made sharp 11x14" prints with the 12mp 5D at 1/60th or 1/125th, you can make identically sharp 11x14" prints with the new 5DSR at the same shutter speeds.



Jan 10, 2016 at 03:42 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


^^^

Correct.

It is the "size" of the blur measured in percentage of image width/height that makes blur visible or not at a given print size — and that does not change one bit with higher or lower resolution sensors or film.

Some folks make a false assumption that as long as the blur is smaller than the size of a pixel it won't show up in the image. But if you understand how digital sampling works you'll see that this isn't quite the case. For one thing, in order for that to be true, all blur would have to take place in perfect vertical or horizontal directions and the center of the thing being blurred (edge of object, point, etc) would have to line up perfecting in the center of the row/column of pixels. In the real world, even with larger photo sites, this simply doesn't happen.

In the end, just remember the following:

1. High photo site density never makes your photo less sharp due to motion blur.

2. In cases where you can control for motion blur (and other kinds of blur inducing effects) a high photo site density camera is capable of producing higher resolution images.

In other words, in the worst case the performance is equal and in the best cases the higher photo site density is potentially better.

Dan



Jan 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


I have used my 5DS R for dark auditorium shots using a 100-400 II at 1/13 second. By the way, check out the ISO. All those pixels allow a lot of NR and still have detail.









Jan 10, 2016 at 11:04 AM
Abbott Schindl
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


zlatko wrote:
*****
[the following paragraphs are excerpted from the zlatko's post]
I'll give it a shot. Cameras with more resolution don't need more support. They don't need to be held any steadier than lower resolution cameras. There is myth about this that gets repeated in photo forums, but it's not true, at least the way it's explained.

Whether one is shooting a 5DSR, a 7D2 or even the original 4mp 1D, the degree of blur from camera shake is the same. The difference is whether the 100% image when viewed on screen represents something like an 8-foot image, a 5-foot image or a
...Show more
*****
Very good explanation; I haven't been able to be as clear when I've tried to explain "sharpness". I think you've nicely broken "visible-in-the-image blur" into two components (hopefully I've gotten this right):
1. Real blur from camera movement
2. Perceived blur due to pixel-level resolution ("magnification")

A photographer can do something about #1 with technique and support, but #2 is determined by camera factors. I tend to think of #2 in terms of pixel pitch (simple, possibly incomplete, but it's helped me). I think about the field-of-view represented by the space between pixels, at a given working distance. The tighter the pitch, the less movement that can happen during exposure before a detail might show in adjacent pixels ("softness"). Of course, tighter pitch also means that higher-level detail can be resolved ("magnification"), and that can lead to perceptions of both "sharp" and "soft", depending on contrast at an object's edges. Pixel-level sharpness isn't the consideration here: it's the amount of camera movement that can spread a pixel-detectable point across adjacent pixels. I think this is different from what gdanmitchell refers to.

#2 is what I think drives thoughts about needing more stable support for higher resolution sensors: trying to keep the camera steady enough so that pixel-level sharpness is optimum (ignoring sensor diffraction and other factors), while not realizing that this usually isn't what determines the image's perceived sharpness.

Does this make sense?



Jan 10, 2016 at 01:12 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


Abbott Schindl wrote:
#2 is what I think drives thoughts about needing more stable support for higher resolution sensors: trying to keep the camera steady enough so that pixel-level sharpness is optimum (ignoring sensor diffraction and other factors), while not realizing that this usually isn't what determines the image's perceived sharpness.

Does this make sense?


You don't "need more stable support for higher resolution sensors" unless you are trying to produce even better resolutions than you got with the lower resolution sensor. With the same support the higher resolution camera will still give you equal or better system resolution, and it will never give you worse resolution.

This is not a question of sharpness diminishing with a higher resolution camera. It is a question of being able to produce even higher resolution in your photograph when you need it.

This whole business is related to the similar discussion related to diffraction blur and aperture selection in higher sensor resolution cameras and the so-called diffraction limiting aperture. Many people make a basic error when they assume that:

a higher sensor resolution camera will produce softer images due to diffraction blur at some aperture than an otherwise identical lower sensor resolution camera at the same aperture,

or

a hand held higher sensor resolution camera will produce softer images due to motion blur at some shutter speed than will an otherwise identical lower resolution camera at the same shutter speed.

Both assumptions are simply false. In both cases the higher sensor resolution camera will equal or exceed the resolution potential of the lower sensor resolution camera. The news in this regard with the higher resolution camera is entirely good news.

Dan



Jan 10, 2016 at 02:06 PM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


One other thing I have seen. A low res monitor will make your 100% crops appear soft. In my case, 100% is equal to a 90 inch wide print. I do not expect razor sharpness at 90 inches.

My 1920 res (26 inches wide) monitor was once a high res monitor, now it is not.



Jan 10, 2016 at 02:45 PM
dehowie
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Handholding 5DSR at speeds of 1/60 to 125


The garbage DPR are turning out and taking it upon themselves as a photographic authority is pretty staggering.
Assumptions about shooting at speeds that there reviewers would never of even tried.
The EVF and Sony fanboys at DPR really need some lessons in taking photos in demanding conditions and get out of there test rooms to see what you can achieve in conditions they had never considered shooting in and believe impossible to do.
Yea you can't shoot low SS with a DSR..

http://www.vortexaviationphotography.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Bali/i-XHgQQtQ/0/X2/034A3204-X2.jpg

http://www.vortexaviationphotography.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Bali/i-3CZNTx3/3/X2/034A2464-X2.jpg

http://www.vortexaviationphotography.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Bali/i-skwmM6F/0/X2/034A3322-X2.jpg

http://www.vortexaviationphotography.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Flight-Deck-Photography/i-MskVZxG/1/X2/034A5372-X2.jpg

http://www.vortexaviationphotography.com/Civil-Aviation-Photography/Flight-Deck-Photography/i-jqqqh6R/1/X2/034A5449-X2.jpg



Jan 11, 2016 at 10:07 PM





FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.