p.1 #1 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
"Sony Zeiss Lenses are Zeiss in name and T* coating only"
I've heard this many times, but is it actual fact? The FE Zeiss lenses I have seem to be pretty nice to me. Are they Sony designed with no Zeiss input and thus it is just a branding thing?
p.1 #2 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
kurt765 wrote:
Are they Sony designed with no Zeiss input and thus it is just a branding thing?
Now if a Zeiss lens designer quits his job to work for Sony, will he be able to design "real" Zeiss lenses? Or wouldn't they be "real" because he doesn't work for Zeiss any more, even if they were technically totally identical to the lenses he would have designed were he still working for Zeiss?
Seriously though, if you are asking whether the branding is "real", your very thinking is "just a branding thing" in itself. Brand names will not take the burden of having to judge the actual technical performance away from you, they just make it easier for people who do not want to make this effort to feel confident about their purchase.
Most people who strongly believe in brand names would have their whole world view shattered if they ever knew who really designs or manufactures the stuff they buy.
"the Zeiss brand label is a result from a quality assurance process that meets Zeiss standards. A great part of that QA process has it's origins in the use of Zeiss patents, Zeiss build machines for molding, grinding, coating etc. Glass comes for the greatest from suppliers. The (dutch based) Schott is one of their main suppliers for optical glass. Where machninery is placed, how business deals are made, is less important for the product quality than those factors: material quality, machinery and quality assurance process. That is what a co-creator company like Sony buys from Zeiss. This is also true for Cosina who uses Zeiss machinery etc. for the production of lenses they produce under the Zeiss label, and as another example: Nokia who makes smartphone lenses with Zeiss designs, materials, machinery and QA processes."
"Carl Zeiss and Sony
A partnership for breathtaking images
Sony is the brand of choice for people looking for great design and high quality. In 1996, Sony came out with its first camcorder with a Carl Zeiss lens. Since then, Carl Zeiss and Sony’s cooperation has expanded to include compact digital cameras and camcorders, high-quality bridge cameras and interchangeable lenses for the Sony Alpha DSLR camera. Sony and Carl Zeiss develop Lenses for Sonys digital cameras together. Then the manufacturing takes place in Sony facilities according to Carl Zeiss specifications. It’s a partnership that combines premium-quality electronics and sensor technology with the best-possible optics for film and video cameras."
p.1 #7 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
AmbientMike wrote:
I think most/all of the Zeis lenses are made in Japan, seems like I heard Cosina? But if they're good, so what. Leica made lenses in Canada.
But I don't really think people employed by Zeiss are making them. So yeah, I suspect it's a branding thing.
I'm talking about the Canon Nikon etc. Zeiss, kinda think Sony might be the same.
the zeiss otuses (oti?) are assembled in japan by people not employed by zeiss. does that make them not real zeiss lenses?
it seems that there are varying levels of collaboration between zeiss and sony depending on the particular lens. some are designed by zeiss to sony's specs, some are designed by sony and approved by zeiss, and some have more complex interactions between the two. final assembly of parts is done by sony in facilities shared with non-zeiss sony lenses. all have a T* coating unlike the rest of sony lenses, use some zeiss equipment for manufacturing, and must meet zeiss's quality control requirements.
the idea of a "true zeiss" is kinda silly. judge the lens by it's performance not by some nebulous marketing term. i personally find some ZA lenses better than their "true zeiss" equivalents in some focal lengths and visa versa in others.
Sep 17, 2014 at 09:20 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #8 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
The Leica 135/4.5 Hektor was probably not considered a great lens. If you needed a 135, it would do that. Granted it's older, but I think it was made in Germany and was a real Leica.
Sep 17, 2014 at 09:35 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #9 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
It is kind of irritating though, since they're often not made at Zeiss in Germany. But if it's a good lens, I'm interested
p.1 #10 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
grahamb3 wrote:
It’s a partnership that combines premium-quality electronics and sensor technology with the best-possible optics for film and video cameras."
p.1 #11 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
sebboh wrote:
the idea of a "true zeiss" is kinda silly. judge the lens by it's performance not by some nebulous marketing term. i personally find some ZA lenses better than their "true zeiss" equivalents in some focal lengths and visa versa in others.
True, all that matters is the final performance. However, the Zeiss name is more than just a marketing term. The name Zeiss implies that the product was designed by people at Zeiss and manufactured according to Zeiss specifications. Because of the past history, people trust the Zeiss name.
In contrast, look at the Kodak name. There are now cameras coming out of China branded Kodak. Long ago, Kodak cameras had some degree of respect with regards to color and IQ. Today, the Kodak name implies nothing but bankruptcy and a dying company. Would anyone be impressed by a Kodak camera today? No. The name has no trust at all.
Zeiss has to make very clear that the Zeiss name means something.
p.1 #14 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
Agreed with all what have been said above.
However, in my opinion, Zeiss/Zeiss designs always aim at creating a certain signature look that Zeiss has been known for since the Contax Yashica days in the 70s. Zeiss/Sony design may have different priorities that are dictated by Sony. So even if the ZA lens has been designed by a German designer at Oberkochen, it still has to follow certain guidelines that make it less Zeissy, and more Sonyish
We have evidence that Sony has designed in-house most/all recent ZA lenses for some reason (maybe the Zeiss engineers are too stubborn ) I feel that the ZA that are Zeiss designed are the older alpha 85/1.4, 135/1.8, 24-70/2.8 and 16-35/2.8. I believe the more recent lenses are all Sony lenses with Zeiss benediction.
It is also interesting to notice a recent change of philosophy at Zeiss, pushed by the development of higher resolving sensors, and the public demand for "perfect" lenses. This would be at the expense of diverging from the classic signature Zeiss look as the compromises made then to achieve this look are not acceptable anymore. The Otus line, the 135/2, the ZM 35/1.4 are all part of this Zeiss "new look" that may not be too different from Sony.
Interesting video. I'm guessing that was some years back as it appears they are making lenses for Olympus OM film cameras (although they don't look like OM lenses).
p.1 #16 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
zlatko wrote:
Interesting video. I'm guessing that was some years back as it appears they are making lenses for Olympus OM film cameras (although they don't look like OM lenses).
those were cosina/voigtlander lenses in OM mount. looked like one might have been the spectacular cv 125/2.5 APO.
edward: in the thread tariq linked eosfun indicated that the FE 55/1.8 was designed by zeiss (not sure the source of his info, work?), so i'm not sure about your new vs old ZA lens dichotomy in terms of who designs them. i agree though that the lenses you list are more contax like and that the latest ZA and ZE/ZF lenses are a step away from the traditional c/y look.
only vaguely on topic – despite the superior color correction, i seem to consistently like images with the ZA 135/1.8 better than the ZE 135/2 APO.
p.1 #17 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
Do Zeiss lenses still maintain the QC that zeiss is famous for? I understand that ZF/ZE lenses come with a certification of inspection. The Sony Zeiss lenses seem far from that level of QC for all reports.
p.1 #19 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
rattymouse wrote:
What Sony camera uses film?
None, and that's not really what they're implying. Sony makes premium-quality electronics and sensors. Zeiss makes the best-possible optics for film and video cameras. It's an unnecessary addition given the nature of their partnership, but not inaccurate, if you believe the hyperbole.
p.1 #20 · Are Sony-made AF Zeiss lenses in fact Zeiss lenses?
Guys, it's really important to detach marketing from facts here.
The ZA 85mm/1.4 is a lens nearly identical to the Minolta 85mm/1.4 LTD, even the lens schematics resemble the Minolta, not the Planar 85mm/1.4 although of course I'm aware most 85mm designs are quite similar.
ZA 135mm/1.8 has nothing to do with the Zeiss 135mm/2.0 APO. Completely different lenses.
The Sony FE 55mm 1.8 is confirmed to have been designed by Naoki Miyagawa, an employer of Sony, not Zeiss. And manufactured in Thailand, in factories of Sony, not Cosina (where Zeiss is made).
Then if you have experience with Zeiss lens build quality, you know Sony's are not quite there - the ZA lenses have their fair share of mechanical problems, and FE 24-70 is also well known for sample variation and centering issues. My brand new FE55 came with dust particles inside. Would that happened with a Zeiss quality inspeciton? Don't think so.
As funny as it sounds, the only Zeiss lens design used by Sony seems to be the A-Mount Sonnar 85mm/2.8. Not even branded as Zeiss, but seemingly identical in design to the old Sonnar 85mm/2.8.
As a bottom line, I must add that I'm an optical engineer myself, and I once got to know an engineer from Zeiss Oberkochen, Germany. Also a photography enthusiast and was using a Sony camera, but at the same time he was pretty clear about the fact that the guys there have absolutely no input into Sony designs. The exchange between Sony and Zeiss is on a marketing level, not on an engineering level.
) I feel that the ZA that are Zeiss designed are the older alpha 85/1.4, 135/1.8, 24-70/2.8 and 16-35/2.8. I believe the more recent lenses are all Sony lenses with Zeiss benediction.